Carbonite Quest
 

I seriously doubt anyone here is going to like this opinion:

Modding and addons are done by nice people, smart people. They are submitted for free, and give the author a sense of pride for many reasons, releasing something that will help others. Also for having their name on a mod that tons of people use.

This basic concept has kept the addons free from the very beginning. We let a mod in that REQUIRES PAYMENT for the full feature of an addon, then everyone will be crippling their work and only releasing teaser addons!

Let's take Mazzle UI, or for that matter Fubar and even ACE ..... Lets say they employed the same money making tactics.

Now that we are all hooked on these great addons that we have come to adore and rely on, just think if we now had to shell out XX dollars per month/year for their "full" useage.

This is where it starts.

I myself just got hit with a separate window pop upon entering wowinterface.com. Now this i can understand, they have costs to host this site and I'm certain the developers and site admins have more important things to do for free. I believe they all deserve a few clicks here and there, and even upgrade the account, make a donation in the amount of your choice.

That being said, I am going to remove my portal and delete my addons from being downloaded until i get an email at [email protected] stating that this addon here has been banned from wowinterface.com.

I understand I'm not going to get what I ask for, so this is good bye for me, off to find or CREATE a place that does not permit the futuristic thrashing of the addon world as we know it.

Rodger

It's Ace, not ACE.

RDX was only an addon you had to buy for a while; there's an article about it on phanxs' website.

And what exactly is carbonite quest doing that you don't like?

Can you explain more? Every addon here is free to use... is Carbonite Quest requiring some type of payment to use? I dont see any advertisements stateing you need to buy something on it unless its in game only (have not used it in game)?

Might wanna let us know if theres something fishy with Carbonite Quest instead of an ultimatum of pull it or your leaving. I think we have proven over the past we want to protect the addon community and authors. I'm sure some solution can be found.

edit: Also if you recieved a popup ad can you let me know what it was for? There should be no pop up ads on this site, some times they sneak in embedded into flash ads.

I for one support this type of model. I am willing to pay for excellent mods that are updated. For information on this mod, the free version and the pay version, go http://www.carboniteaddon.com/default.aspx.

The way it works is when you pay a subscription price for the website you get a download link for the full version of the mod. The mod then does some validation when you log in with the registered player/realm - the mod is then open for ANY of your toons on ANY realm. This Carbonite Quest release is meant to have you test out a big part of the mod, and see if you like it. If you don't - great - don't pay. If you do, either live with the limited version or come to the site and pay.

I think if MORE developers tool this stance if would be BETTER for the modding community. There is NOTHING WRONG for someone getting paid for their hard work. The mod in question is a working mod, there is no nag screen or anything, but it is part of a larger mod package that you need to subscribe to a website to download. Carbonite Quest is a standalone mod trying to entice you to be thirsty for more.

I am not affliliated with the developers at all, I am just a happy customer. The mod is very cool and for me let's me substitute a BUNCH of mods that I use.

I found this link on the Carbonite site. I thought the thread was interesting - it discusses the legailty of charging for mods.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...81825791&sid=1

Tweeker, I was hoping that this was resolved the other night in the Carbonite Quest comments section. I'm sorry to see that it wasn't.

Here is a thread from the WoW forums about the Carbonite for-pay version. I highly advise that you read it, as it goes over the points that I tried to make, but in more detail. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...81825791&sid=1

For-pay addons are completely legit. It does not go against Blizzard's EULA or ToS to charge for an addon you create. Blizzard only owns the rights to its game code and any items/characters therein. Authors own the rights to their addon code, and may put it under whatever license they wish.

The only reason why you see so little for-pay addons, is because 1. that requires that the author keep up with updates, fixes, etc, as they have that responsibility by charging users for the addon and 2. because there is so much free stuff around. But anything you find that gets charged for is first-rate. It has to be - otherwise, no one would be willing to pay for it. :p



Now, about the Carbonite Quest mod hosted here on this site.

Before I made my second post in the Carbonite Quest comments section, I brought your concerns to the rest of the staff. Our consensus was that Carbonite Quest does exactly what it says it does. There is no mention on the download page that it is a few features from the for-pay version, and it is not the old trial, which limited you to 30-days usage.

It is its own mod. You can use it for however long you want to, and never need to pay for the other features. If you *want* the other features that come with the for-pay mod, then you can either pay for it, or substitute other mods for those features. But nowhere are you forced to pay, or asked to pay.



As for your concerns...

If Carbonite Quest was solely an advertisement for the for-pay version, then that would be a different story. But it's not. It is a fully-functional quest database mod that operates on its own.

Authors are free to do whatever they wish with their code. They may license it so that they own all rights to the addon, or release it into the public domain. Or even in-between, where people may make derivative works. An author has every right to charge for their work. See my two reasons above for why you don't see it very often.

There are people on each side of this debate. Some see it as ethical, like you. But that is just your opinion. You create addons for free, but you are not free to force that opinion on others.

This addon does what it says it does, and does not require you to pay for anything. It will be allowed to remain on this site. If anyone wants to download it, they are free to. If they don't, then they won't. I'm sorry to see you go, Tweek.

I talked about this addon on it's comments page and said my peace there.

One thing I just found out and REALLY don't like is they way the "corrupt" the LUA file so nobody but them can read it.

I know this is done to "protect" their work (or possibly hide their code theft)...

Who's to say that the waypoint system was not ripped directly from Cartographer ... word for word ??

Either way I don't like it. If an author wants monetary compensation for their work then put up a PayPal Donation Link. I think WoW addons should be made for the love of the game and the love of the community ... not monetary gain.


Seerah you point out that thread on the WoW forums. I don't visit them much but I though official posts where from "Blue's" ?? .. .all I see are Green (forum mods??) and normal white. I see no official blue posts there.

Sorry Seerah to open my mouth again ... I'm done this time I swear.

I feel obligated to point out two things:

(1) Lua is not an acronym; it is a Portugese word that means "moon." (Sorry, Lua's on a "Write Lua Right" campaign and I'm pitching in :D )

(2) It's not really possible to "corrupt" it, only obfuscate it (make it difficult to read). If it were corrupt, WoW wouldn't read it :) Thus, someone with enough knowledge and time should be able to pull it apart. I'm not saying I advocate this behavior, nor am I saying that any "deciphered" versions would ever be allowed on this site (because they wouldn't unless the original author were to agree -- they're still the same code), but I am saying it's possible.

-- Shirik

Flarin linked the same thread. :p And you're right - Blizzard posters are Blue. But does that make it any less true? Or do I need to go and dig up a blue post? Or is it that you're just being argumentative? :)

Here's part of our discussion on irc from Monday night:

That excerpt doesn't paint a very nice picture of me :( I'm not like that, really!!

Glad to know I am not alone in my feelings. It is really saddening, (honestly)..
I love this site and what it's stood for from day one. Now THIS addon has trampled on things I thought this site stood for.

What's wrong with a donation link? It seems to work for everyone else?

This is the first mod (addon) I have EVER seen approved by this site that is crippled!

By crippled i mean this:
1) - It is NOT the full version.
2) - Addon authors can NOT edit it for personal use, nor use it's code.
3) - Payment IS "required" to utilize the full (real) version that this one is
meant to entice you into paying for.
4) - Much like the very first lick of an ice cream, you ARE going to want
another lick. So pull out that wallet, cause the choice to donate is no
longer yours.

Since playing WoW, this has been my main 'hang out' for many reasons, mainly due to the admins of the site. The morals they pratice when envoking a rule. Their keen sense of judgement when it comes to approve or deny a post,upload,avatar,signature,etc.
Having downloaded some pretty foul ui's, software and addons from other
sites in the past, I hung my hat on the wowinterface.com door and made this my "home".. Every now and again, i will go and have a look see at a few other places that host forums and addons, nothing else comes close to the quality maintained here by the users, authors, and admins..

UNTIL NOW

I Own a few wow related domains, they are empty... and yes i am upset enough to put tons of work into one and make it spring to life, but I for one do not have the time. I can only silently pray that this addon, and others in the future with the same logic, get banned and stay banned.

Rodger

-edit-
Please dont turn this into a business resource, can't we keep it the way it has been?
Imagine what comes in the next 6 months if this one gets to stay. Take a few minutes before you reply, and please... imagine it.

No wasn't trying to be argumentative .. sorry to come across that way. :)

Though I'm not saying what was in that thread was untrue I would have just liked to see an official blue post .. but please don't waste the time digging it up if it exists .. I believe the legality of the right to make an add-on a pay-2-use. Just well as I said before ... don't agree with it. :D

I don't see what's wrong with the model. This is pure speculation, but working on Carbonite might be the creator's day job. Unlike a someone who does this for a hobby, he is taking a financial risk, but is also creating a product that (maybe) is better than the competition, and he was willing to bank on that. Why should he not be rewarded for his work if people choose to pay?

It's your mod, you choose what you want to do with it. It's my money, I choose what I want to do with it.

I choose not to pay for this mod, and that's that. It's not my place to tell others that they can't.

Then tell him to take his "day job" to a less respectable place, that's all i'm saying.

Okay guys, here's the deal:

a) The mod that is hosted on this site states that it does X. It does do X. It isn't gimped in any way;
b) There is nothing in the file description on the site that says that this mod is "for pay" or anything else;
c) It doesn't pop up any sort of nag in-game

The ONLY thing that this mod has is a simple line in a read-me file that you have to deliberately and manually check that tells you that they have *additional* files available which are "for pay".

It does absolutely nothing that violates any of Blizzard's rules, rules of this site or breaks any law. If it did, we wouldn't allow it. You guys know us well enough by now to know that.

Whether people like the idea of "for pay" mods or not is a subject of much heated debate and opinion,. There is just as much debate about authors that have donation buttons on their download description pages/in their read-me files. But the fact is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The author of Carbonite Quest has as much right to use this site for the distribution of his free mods as anyone else does.

Tweeker, I'm sorry to see you go and I wish you would reconsider, but we have honoured your request and removed your mods from the site.

I just want to add my humble opinion about this topic as I believe in the power of democracy and the simple philosophy of economic supply and demand. What I mean by that is that if an author posts a mod for free but has other parts of it which he/she wishes to charge for, there would be no reason for him/her to do this and spend the time on it in the future if nobody buys it. The incentive in marketing strategy is lost if it doesn't work... let's just practice the simple laws of common sense and let the democratic principles we all believe in do their job. Most mods already have an option to acquire info as to how to make donations to it's respective author and this is really no different imo. If you don't like a product... don't buy it. If you don't like a mod or practices of it's respective author... just don't download it. The rest will take care of itself.

Tweeker I understand how you feel but wish you'd reconsider... we can make a stand as a community and work together to see that this practice doesn't continue if the majority doesn't wish it to.

I think we will possibly see the true spirit of the intentions from the addon developer once several patches have taken place and he 1) continues to update Carbonite quest for free.. or 2) will charge for any future updates. If he is in business to make money, i forsee the second option eventually...
Thats my 2cp for what its not worth

1) The version released on this site is free, and full to the extent that's been made available. Enough people have commented...it does what it does.
2) ANY addon author can request their work not edited for personal use...and go to measures to ensure that their source is protected legally. Free or for-pay addons.
3) Payment -is not- required...you can use the version hosted by WoWI for free, with no pressure to purchase the version the author has available "for-pay".
4) This is a personal issue that should not be related to the argument at hand. You cannot claim that WoWI is going against their motto & rules that have been in place since the sites conception simply because you feel that you won't be able to live without the full version after taking a peek at the free version allowed here.

To remind you, Mazzle (prior to ending direct development on MazzleUI) optioned hosting a pay-for site that would use member site subscriptions to fund future development and upkeep of the addon. Regardless of it going through or not, it's not ill-conceived to believe that hard-working source programmers that intentionally try to enhance WoW UI elements to an extent that Carbonite does do not have the right to retain portions of their programming work and make them available on a pay-for basis. It's their choice & right. Demanding that it isn't and that it's wrong puts you in a rather disrespectful position.

WoWI will not ban the addon they host. They can't, because it doesn't request, or stress any need, for payment for the full version. And if you do take the time to build such a website, it may better help you understand the need or desire for compensation for the time, effort, and energy you put into that project.

And if that were to happen, the mod would no longer be hosted here. As it stands though, there is no reason for us to remove it.

My Opinion
 

Could 2 programmers quit their full time game programming jobs and work on an addon 40-60 hours a week for 9 months and live off of donations? I'm certain they couldn't. We have spent a large amount of money developing this addon and think it is only fair that we get paid. Sure we could of stayed at our jobs and worked on this on the weekends and it would have 25% of the features it has now.

How many addons get abandoned in their lifetime? I've been playing WOW for 3 years now and have had several addons go belly up on me or switch authors. They have no major incentive to continue work after they get bored. They have no obligation to the user. Questhelper was already abandoned 2 months after it was first released and picked up by a different person.

You can say it is crippled. The same way Visual Studio Express, Kerio Personal Firewall, AntiVir Personal Edition or many other software items are crippled. I use Kerio and AntiVir for free and they work great, but want more features in Visual Studio, so I pay for it.

I use Auctioneer and switched to their "Advanced" version a few months back. It is a great addon, but like most things, I like some of what they changed and disliked other changes. I could contact them and say "do it my way", but I don't. I'm nobody to them and they don't owe me anything. I bet if they all quit their jobs and did nothing else, it would be done faster and even cooler.

Bottom line is people are paying us to write an addon, so we care and are obligated. We spend more time working on the addons than most if not all other addon authors. In the last 5 weeks I've personally posted 251 times in our forums, answered dozens of email and posts on other forums. We listen to our customers as reading our forums will show. I have 21 items on my todo list, most of which were requested by customers. We have released a total of 9 updates to our 2 addons in the last 5 weeks and will continue to do so. Our price is very affordable. Don't eat out for lunch one time and you would have the money for 6 months of Carbonite updates, tons of features and support. Look at the price of leveling guides or gold selling. You could buy years of Carbonite updates for what they charge. If you don't want to pay, then use Carbonite Quest. It works well and we have many improvements planned for it in the future.

To quote a great book "A worker is worth his wages".

This is my personal opinion and is not an "official" CBC response.

Thx,
faatal

Obviously he is, otherwise he would not have spent the serious bucks it costs to legally license an LLC. ;) Depending on the state you live in, this can be extremely expensive. A lot of hoops to jump through for it not to mention the IRS obligations along with it. He also went through the hassle of making "Carbonite" a registered trademark. None of this is cheap.

I'm using the trial version and I must say that it's an above par addon, and I'll more than likely get a subscription because I feel that it's well worth it. I don't really know anything about the guy who created Carbonite, but perhaps he feels that this is his first foot in the door for a serious programming career later on. Everyone has to start somewhere, and what better way to begin than to have people actually pay for an addon that is used in one of the worlds largest MMO's? That'll be sweet on a resume! None of us have the right to say that he has no right to make an honest buck.

Hell, I date a programmer and programming has paid for his house, cars and everything else he owns. We grind quests just about every evening in WoW and I can't tell you how many times I've half assed joked about him creating addons for me, or making me a custom UI. He laughs and tells me he doesn't work for free lol. We shouldn't expect everyone in this community to do so either. :)

Wait am I missing something on this one: is the Lua distributed in the ZIP archive really "compiled" and we have no direct visibility on the actual source?

Yes, that is correct. I honestly have no idea how the WoW client "reads" this blather or what it actually "does". Very questionable, if you ask me.

It appears that everytime you kill a gnome it secretly sends 2 copper to the donation of Little People of America. I think I'll join in, can't hurt, I love playing with the little people.

Seriously, if you do not like it then don't download it. How do we tell if a mod is popular or worth our time??? By the number of downloads and reviews/comments on it. I think some people are just arguing over this mod due to its newness (word?) and the fact they don't want to pay for something they actually do want but don't want to admit it publicly.

Just my 2 cents.

Lua is semi-interpreted, which means textual code is actually compiled into bytecode on the fly before it is run within the Lua virtual machine. The ability to run pre-compiled Lua is part of the standard Lua runtime and I guess was included into WoW Lua engine. Apart from the small performance increase by direct interpretation of the bytecode (see it like a Just-In-Time type of virtual machine) like someone said this is mostly code obfuscation. However you can use reversible encryption to retrieve the actual bytecode. This is just like people who distribute encrypted Visual Basic scripts (VBE) thinking they are hiding their code.

Next question to the admins then: did you guys decompiled the bytecode, put the pieces back together and checked what exactly the addon code is and what it does? Or is the license not allowing you to do so (even as the distributor and not the end-user)?

In WoW's Lua, loadstring's ability to load bytecode is deliberately disabled. What you see there is not bytecode. What they've done is put the entire addon into a string and then encrypted it. I didn't bother to look at the specifics of it, but if you really care, you can always hook loadstring and watch what gets passed to it.

Edit: to throw in my opinion, I disapprove of selling addons because I'd rather the author contribute to the community rather than only taking from it. That said, I'm not going to throw a hissy fit and demand that wowi not host the free version.

Okay I guess the fact WoW cannot load bytecode directly is reassuring somehow, thanks for pointing that out. You can blame me as I actually did not check the code at all when I first saw the mess (although the first copyright line being cleartext was bothering me) but you are right, this is nothing else than a loadstring... A huge ugly string with a lot of \' escaping :) I personally dislike such tricks quite a lot but that is another story :confused:

But then again you can intercept the decrypted script before it is compiled into bytecode and passed on to the interpreter right? So I guess my question to the admin remains. Do you guys know what is in there?

And providing a service both free and paid is taking from the community how exactly?

My guess is there's an addon that provides questing support and a cool map. You're implying that they are doing something nefarious. Protecting your code (at least from casual examination) seems like a reasonable position if you are trying to make this a business.

This is only a problem because you decided on day that you wanted the extra features of the addon, and you can't have it unless you pay. No kittens were harmed in the making of this addon, and it doesn't hurt anyone who uses it.

Wanting something (and obtaining it) without paying for it, in the software industry, is called piracy. As far as wowinterface is concerned, the addon that was submitted to us is technically different than the addon you would be paying for if you decided to do so. THe one on this site does exactly what it says it does, and in no way requires payment to use. Your decision to do so is totally yours, and we will not ever require you to buy an addon from our site.

I believe the issue here is not a belief of misdeed or evil intention. The rules for the site are that your code must be made available for examination if your going to host here.

Being that most of the mods have chimed in on this mod and have said its ok to stay i would assume that this condition has been met.

I began this thread so that I could open a few eyes and get others feedback on how they felt about:

How this type of mod hosted on this site, could change the future of addons.

my opinions remains the same,

Since the admins have permitted this ::

A lot more people are going to be doing this for money, and more than likely the very same people that used to do it for pride and generosity.

Addons have always been deemed as safe (in my opinion) that are hosted here because of two reasons.

The site admins approved them.
The authors allowed you to view it's code in full content.

Now that things are different, and i do believe they are heading on a downword spiral now. Mosty because of the acceptance of this addon in particular.

I never once spoke poorly of the addon from the users standpoint, in-game it's great, and it very well may worth it to 'some' people to pay the fee's for the non crippled version. (no, your not going to re define to me the word crippleware, i know damn well what it means and i have hit the nail on the head)

The main thing i was saying when i started this read was:

I will not condone this nor host it on my addon site.
Shame it got accepted/approved here, *waved goodbye to the last known website that held it's head up high with dignity, that hosted quality OPEN SOURCE addons that are 'free' in their full version for the community of www.wowinterface.com*

Feel free to lock/close this thread. Whats done is done, a couple guys looking to make a buck, have knocked on your door, and you let them in with open arms, while the other mod authors stood back picking each others jaw up off the floor.

--Rodger

The Addon _is_ open source. Yes, they try to hide it, but it's impossible to do otherwise and still have to load in wow. Also, you seem to lack an understanding of how addon copyright works.

not lacking any understanding at all, and it'd be nice if you 'fully' read the posts prior to hitting the reply key.

And you seriously think that everyone will be honest and not copy their work if it wasn't encrypted?

thumbs thru the wikki for 'open source'


Who would care? No one ever has, it's what made this place.

open source addons...

*cough* free

This line here is what leads me to be believe that you don't understand copyright. No one had the right to modify or use code from anywhere other their own mind unless the code is distributed with a license that specifically allows it.

All right! cool, proud of ya.

So now you understand this thread then right?

spend some time and read from the bottom

Funny, I read your initial post and all I see is a demand for the admins to remove the addon or you were leaving.

That's really all you see?


If that's the case, I am happy to have hit a larger scale audience with this thread then

Tweeker, enough. You know very well the rules of this site and you have crossed the line not once but multiple times in this thread. The mod does nothing wrong. Not every mod on this site is "open source". Unless specifically stated otherwise by the individual author, every mod on this site is completely copyright protected and any usage of the code within must be done with the explicit permission of the author in question. Therefore the fact that this mod is obfuscated is not only not breaking any rules, but is actually a right of the author to do so. The mod that is on this site is not crippled in any way, and your continued insistence that it is is incorrect.

It is very simple. If you like it, use it. If you don't, don't. But you will kindly stop insulting the other users of this site or you will be asked to leave.

<-- just left

its like going to baskin robins you get a free tast test on what ice cream and flavor you want then you pay for your choice that you make nothing wrong with that and besides your not paing for the program you just paying for the subscription to their website and in turn you get the full version at least that was my understanding of things ???

Basically you had the right idea. Get your free sample (in this case a sample that doesnt get used up) and buy in to it if you like it. Though you are in fact paying for a full version of the mod. Yes you get access to the site in the process but your money goes to development and support.

That being said While i may disagree with the spirit of this whole notion i will say that to each her/his own. It just puts more pressure/incentive on the creators to churn out a quality product.

Hopefully they do and people get their monies worth. In the end people want their dollar value (and in most cases would like to see more than the value) and if they dont get it the developers at carbon will have to either up the quality or lose the customer.

In the end the decision to pay or not is personal. If what is available here does what it claims with no nag screens offering the full service or some limited time trial then i say let it be.

I would never pay for a WoW addon. At least, not for Carbonite Quest. The map appears to work well, but the Carbonite addons look... it's just awful.

Are you portuguese or are you a dedicated searcher? :D

I normally don't reply to a post like that unless I feel passionately about the issue. The mudslinging at Carbonite is a topic that I feel passionately about... and when I get passionate about something I normally end up getting in trouble. So, I will try my best to choose my words wisely.



Your cold hard proof of this is..... where??? I'm not interested in LUA errors or Bugsack errors. I want the cold hard proof that the creators made Carbonite so that it would break those addons on purpose.

Somehow I think you either didn't install something correctly, or you are experiencing innocent bugs with one or a few of the mods.

In the meantime I'm going to wait for your proof.

Neither. I can't speak for shirik, but what he said, and you quoted, that was one of the first things I read on the first lua website I visted. http://www.lua.org/about.html

edit: and I agree with Silenia

that's pretty much impossible, since they obscure the code....

Personly i got nothing against the addon being on this site, but it should be clear in the addon info that it is a limited version, and that the code is obsured so people can make their own choice based on that...

Unless Anova, or anyone else for that matter, can prove his/her claim that the programmers coded the software to break the mods in question on purpose, I can and will do nothing else but consider it as a false accusation from someone who did not install the addons properly, or has not updated the addons to their latest versions.

By the way... I moved my Interface and WTF folders to my desktop, deleted my Cache folder, installed the latest versions of all of the mods in question (Gatherer, Lightheaded, Atlas, and Carbonite Quest) and have been playing since the servers came back up. Not a single error in Bugsack and all the mods are working as they should be. I have no other mods installed accept those he/she mentioned with the acception of Bugsack.

I refuse to debate the rest as it's a dead horse and not worth discussion.

i would assume you paid for it. and this guy said that he has the demo version.

btw, it's not hard to install an addon it's just a drag and drop so seeing as anova has had his acount since 2007 i would assume he can install addons right.

but we shall see.

edit:

i do know for a fact that it does make opening up cartogropher a pain in the ass. - which they fixed-


No it doesn't break lightheaded or anyother questing addon i have

final result anova is a noob.

So this is a pretty much dead discussion, but I feel like some of this needs saying:

No they won't, and even if they do they better hope like hell it's an amazing addon otherwise they just made a major time sink in a failing business. Bottom line is you have to make sure you offer constant support and updates as well as producing an outstanding addon that can rival the free addons.

Your addon better NEVER be broken and NEVER be behind in patch fixes. You also better hope I, and everyone else that is going to pay for this addon, can download it (or it's updates) whenever I need to, even on major patch releases because THAT is what you are paying for, not the source code.

Finally, it costs $5.99 for for 6 months to get the full version, which doesn't offer anything except enchantments to the free version. I realize that's a HUGE money sink on anyone who has the $15/m to pay for a video game and all.

Don't let the door hit you in the keester...

your negativity on comments and posts just drags people down.

sorry you cannot see that for yourself.

Cordially,

Broh

Alright, alright. That's enough of this. This topic (which had been silent and finished for nearly two months) is now locked. Nothing new is coming out of it. Sorry, folks.