Why do you need to update your addons ?
 

I made this post on the Curse forums but no one seems to be interested in discussion on it. I'm not sure if I should have this here or in the tutorials forums. I've altered it a little from the Curse post version but here goes :

Why do you guys need an addon updater client at all ?

There seems to be a general attitude in the addon community that you absolutely need an addon updater client to keep all your addons updated and "omg you has to do it every single day or else your addons will break in the middle of a maly raid and you mights wipe the raid" and that "omg updating addons is so hard . I use a gazillion mods and it would take me for ever manually"

Let's get back to basics here guys ....

You download addons. You install addons. This process is very simple to do.

Why do you need to update them ?

Why there could be bugs. The code may take up an extra 400k of memory because of inefficient use of tables, It could be interferring with another addon. Blizzard might of come out with new patch changing how the api the addon uses works. Any number of reasons.

What can happen if you don't update them ?

You might see lots of red errors come up on screen. Parts of the addon might not work. If you're really unlucky you might get disconnected. I've never heard of anything destructive from an addon erroring. Either you update it to work , find a replacement or simply disable it.

Ok so if nothing's wrong on my UI do I need to update ?

No.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this statement but here it is

"Assuming your UI is not broken AND NOT spewing up red errors then you can afford not to update for a while" .

Sounds a bit heretical right ? . I've been using an email update strategy for updating my addons since December 2008. And you know what ? There's been stretches of 2 weeks at a time where I have not downloaded a single update. And my UI has been just fine.

So what are all these updates to addons I see ? Surely I need to download those updates ! There could be new features and optimisations !

Here's where you have to distinguish for yourself if it's a MAJOR update or a MINOR update.

A Major update is where the other has done a considerable amount of rework on the addon. He might of gone through every line of code making code optimisations. He might of fixed some show stopping bugs. He might of changed how his addon works in order to work better with another addon. It's up to you what you judge as a major update. A bug that's effecting your timing of your steady shot and you play a hunter ? Yeah that's major. A bug that's effecting the incoming heal on a tank and you raid on a warlock ? Possibly minor.

A minor update meanwhile is one that is either a few lines of code changed or doesn't effect you in some way. If you only play in English then any and all localisation changes can be crossed off the list to update. A "tagging" change usaully means the author has decleared that the builds he wrote before definately work with the latest patch so he's tagging it as a particular version to bring the release version on all sites in line with the development version. A new feature that you're never going to use ? Minor! . A bug fix for a class you don't play ? Minor !

It's really up to you what you judge as Major or Minor.

The Minor updates I don't even bother downloading. This doesn't not effect the running of my addons or the state of my UI. The major ones I do. Like my signature says. 89 addons. Updated every week or so. 22-25 emails. Looking at 8-9 addon pages. Downloading 3-4 addon updates. Takes less than 15 minutes.

How do I know what's changed so I can judge whats a major change or what's a minor change ?

Version histories. My email updates have these. For the ones I don't I end up opening the page. It's on Curse under the "Changes" tab (below where you click to download) and on Wow interface under the "Change Log" tab at the top.

You don't have to be a brain buzz to judge if you should download a version of a mod or not. If it interests you then download. If it sounds minor to you , don't

What's a good way of updating your addons without a addon updater client ?

1) fins metasite that takes RSS feeds the addon sites provides and formats them

http://fin.instinct.org/wowmods/

2) Make favourites of all your addons on the major addon sites. Most of them will have a page you can go to that lists just your updated favourites

3) Extension of number 2 , make favourites but this time set it up so you can emails about the addons. Examine each to judge wether it is major or minor.

Finally

I don't work for Curse or Wowinterface . Since adopting my current way of updating my addons (email updates details in my sig) I've actually spent less time updating my addons.

I don't open up an addon updater program before I login every day. They may be updates but I would prefer to have control over what gets downloaded and installed rather then just blindy installing something and hoping for the best.

I don't have a problem with people who use addon updater programs just people who feel the need to use them every single day , download every single update and associate updating manually with pulling teeth.

No offense intended to the fine people who are currently writing addon updater clients for Curse or WI but at the end of the day I'm not going to use them as they don't suit my needs :D

Updating your addons doesn't have to be time consuming or difficult at all. It's actually very easy. I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll copy it here too:

On WoWInterface (I don't know about Curse, but I'm sure it's something similar, same with wowui.incgamers), when you go to the download page of an AddOn you use and like, you can click on the little heart underneath the big download button. That adds it to your favourites list. Now every time you visit the site, you will see a notice on the front page (Community tab) saying whether any of your favourites have been updated. As well, there is a link on the top bar of the site that says "favourites", that you can click at any time to go look at your list.

To get email notifications of updates of your favourites, do this:

If you are on your Favourites list page you will see a little menu on the left, or if you are on any other page on the site (except the forums tab) you can click on "Options" on the top bar. Either one of those places you will see:

AddOn Options
Manage Favorites
Email Feeds
Preferences
Download History

Click on "Preferences". You will then see this:

Download Preferences
My Favorites Options
Email Notification:
Enable this feature to recive email notification when one of your favorites has been updated.
yes no

Just check "yes" and any time any AddOn on your favourites list is updated, it will send out an email notification that it has been updated and give you a direct link to the download page for that AddOn.

Also, there is always the option of getting an RSS feed of your Favourites list as well / instead of.

The third component of a solid update method: Fin's AddOn meta-site has its own RSS feed. This feed gathers the RSS feeds from WoWInterface, WoWUI.Incgamers, and Curse (including CurseForge and WoWAce) into one handy feed.

Links from Fin's RSS feed will take directly to that AddOn's page on their chosen UI site. From there you can view the AddOn's full description, read the Change Log and download the AddOn.

This feed can be incorporated into your Live Bookmarks (Firefox), Favorites (IE 7 & 8, send to your Favorites Bar for best results), or the Feeds menu (Opera 9 & 10). Now that you have added the RSS feed to your browser, you have an easy to use view of all new and updated AddOns from the three major AddOn sites directly from your browser.

When you combine the RSS feeds into your browser, Honem's email update method and the Favorites feature of both Curse and WoWInterface (not sure on WoWUI), you have an extremely powerful, easy to use updater just in your browser. No extra software needed!

Fin's RSS feed integrated into Firefox's Live Bookmarks:


Sure you don't have your "Easy" button to hit for mindless updates, however you do get control over what and how your mods get updated. You will know what is going on at all times, there is nothing arcane, no "funny business" in the background, no worries that your updater will get broken. In addition, using this three part method means that you will always have backups of your AddOns. I have had updates cause my UI to throw chunks. Thus having a backup means I can quickly revert to a working version and then I can get on with the night's raiding, ganking, grinding, or Battleground action.

One other thing: Patch Days. There is an easy way to avoid the Patch Day chaos without resorting to a "One touch updater". Typically, major Patch Days are announced a few days in advance. Usually if one pays attention to the PTR notes, you will get a good idea if and when a Patch is about to drop. Most AddOn authors do pay attention to the PTR notes and Blue posts. Authors who pay attention to the Blues and PTR notes will then release either finished new versions or at the very least, stable betas of AddOns that will work with the new Patch. Thus, you the user, can use the Pre-Patch "calm before the storm" to locate and download updates for your AddOns. Just remember that not all AddOns will need an update to work with a new Patch. I have been using some of Tekkub's mods unchanged for two or three years now. All I have to do to get them to work is tick the "Enable Out of Date AddOns" check box.

The three part system of Email, RSS feeds, and Favorites will greatly help in locating these updates. Download the updates, stash em in a folder and then come Patch Day, unzip and drop your updated AddOns into your AddOns folder. By using this method, you will save your favorite's AddOns site's bandwidth come Patch Day and yourself a few headaches. This method is like using a Pre-Paid toll transponder at the tollbooth. By using that transponder, you can drive past all the drivers who have to stop and throw money into the bin because they did not pay ahead of time.

I roll with 88 addons. I haven't had to update any of them in the past two weeks, and that was just for SellFish. A few of the addons have had new versions uploaded, but the old versions I have still work, so I do not feel the need to update them. Should they stop working, I'll know where to find the updates because I have all of them favorited. :D

The exception to lack of updates is Pitbull 4, an alpha. If I come across a bug or problem, then I'll only be hindering development by posting a bug report based off an outdated version.

I like the premise of the OP's thinking; but the reality is that some addons just seem to break more easily than others. I have some addons that have been running perfectly for months and I'm very much of the thinking 'if it aint broke dont fix it'.. so they've not been updated for ages and wont be until they break or the mods have some shiny new feature I want.

On the other hand, of those mods I use some seem to be updated all the time with bug fixes and optimisations etc. QuestHelper is an example, Dr/Mr Damage as well. These kind of mods I'd really want to be bang up-to-date though, so in those cases I'd use the addon updater to keep them in check.

Do they break in unusable ways ?
Or are they broken as in a little bit inaccurate ?

I'm afraid I don't follow your logic.

If an addon is broken then of course you're going to update it. That's a given. So you update them.

But with these mods that get updated all the time with bug fixes and optimisations ? What are the consequences of not updating ? And of those "bug fixes" which ones are actually effecting you ?

What I'm trying to get it at here is it's possible for a bug fix and/or optimisation to never effect you as a player. For example :

Mobspells r56 "Fix deleting mobs"

I don't use that part of Mobspells. So I didn't download that update.

You don't have to download every single version that an author comes out with. Examine the change log then make an informed decision. But you should always consider "is it working fine for me or not"

I really don't like Blindly installing new versions of things without knowing what changes they are going to bring. Is this new version going to change something in the addon fundamentally ? Well if so I'ld like to know what that is.

IMHO doing this "examine the change log" thing should be fairly simple to do with an updater client - Both the Curse client and the wow interface client have an option for looking at it.

I guess with all this rambling I'm just trying to convince you that you don't need to update every single day :D

Not only do I take advantage of the WoWI favorites feature, but I go a couple steps further. Firefox saves all of my add-ons to my desktop where I conveniently have a short-cut to my add-ons folder. After I have downloaded all of the updated versions I use WinRAR to extract them. This is as easy as going down the list alphabetically (that's how WinRAR sorts them) and drag/drop them into the add-ons folder.

To make the process even easier, I have WoW Interface set as my homepage. For add-ons not found on WoWI, well I think there's only one and that's CT Mod which is most likely getting replaced by something hosted on WoWI. Ever since I started using Bartender and Carbonite, I find the only thing I need from CT is the buff mod.

I use 30-35 mods and even on a day when all or nearly all of them have been updated, it only takes me 1-2 minutes to complete the entire process.

Mister Shady

Not a personal dig but ....

I challenge you to not update your addons every day but once per week. Go for a week without updating your addons and report back with what your experience is like :D

The consequences I can see ?

Questhelper - It might have the wrong locations for stuff. Easily solved with alt-tabbing to Wowhead :D

Dr/Mr Damage - Those show how much your spells hit for on the icon for the spell right. Ok then the numbers it shows on the toolbar might be a bit out.

Deadly Boss mods - they're past the major bugs stage and are currently working on minor bugs.

Go on ! Take my challenge :D (you're allowed to limit it to 4 days not updating if you're scared :D)

I think at this point in the game, after WAU was out for so long as well as many other one-click updaters, people have this addiction to updating their addons.

They see that whatever addon they're using gets an update and they need it. It doesn't matter what was changed (code clean up, library update that really doesn't affect end users (or shouldn't) at all, or localization updates). It doesn't matter if the addon worked completely fine before; they need to update it because it's available.

I've said this before; there are only two reasons you should ever update an addon:

1) There is a bug that is hindering the addons function and there is an update that fixes this bug.
2) The author has added a new feature that you want to try and test.

The cold hard truth of this is; there are very few times that either of these things will ever occur.

The only time this should be broken is if you're testing an alpha quality addon and updating it every time an update has been pushed is essential for debugging and assisting in the development of the addon.

I had another group of thoughts while I was trying to go to sleep last night

I've seen this argument come up a lot :

"XX addon is unstable therefore I MUST update EVERY day so I can prevent it erroring in the midde of the raid"

People seem to have this irrational fear of being assaulted by red errors in the middle of a Maly Raid.

They're so scared of what happens when an addon bugs so I think thats another reason for their "must update every day" attitude.

People you don't have to be scared of addon errors.There are there to help you and the addon authors debug their addons.

If you install Bugsack or any decent error grabbing addon this will actually capture those errors so you can look at them later. Bugsack can sound an alarm *once* then never bother you again. You can even set Bugsack to never sound at all - that way when you go to use an addon and it doesn't come up then you can go check the errors (BugSack has a little bag icon on the minimap)

If an addon's going to bug out it's usaully going to bug out that same way every time you do something. There'll be a concrete series of steps you take in order to get the bug to come up. If you know what causes it then you're in a much better place to get it fixed.

If it bugs out in a Raid and you can't just hide the errors tell your Raid Leader "sorry my dps/healing/tank's going to be a little off tonight my XXX addon is bugging out and i cant seem to fix it". You then logout and disable that addon. If you're Raid is kind enough that might even give you advice on how to fix it (download & install this , /console reloadui etc etc etc). Once the raid's over you look into fixing it.

Now if your UI isn't bugging out and you haven't changed anything then it's logical to assume that lt's not going to explode in red errors. If something was working before then you shouldn't need to download any updates for it.

PS I've personally not heard of any addon that's so unstable that it needs updating every single day. If it's unstable then you find a way to fix it so it's not unstable (other then blindly updating it every day)

Interesting. What are the other, er, vastly more common reasons are there that addons authors release updates?

Actually, scratch that.

Tagging changes , localisation changes , minor bug fixes, dry coding for problems they forsee coming up , toc number changes , reversions of previous changes .....

Anytime an author feels they should be getting out something to the public that's new with their addon.

This does not imply that you should go out there and download every addon update there is for your addons. Neither does this imply you shouldn't download any addon updates at all.

Just that it's not necessary to keep doing this every single day when your UI doesn't have a single thing wrong with it.

Did you use this as an excuse to post your Troll sig :D . BTW I don't think I'm a troll for discussing this in a reasonable manner ;)

Fin was telling you not to feed him. ;)

/me huggles Fin

Most addons that I use usually contain new stuff with every update (eg. LightHeaded, Atlas, AtlasLoot, Overachiever etc.), but I still take my time to go to addon page and read the change log, because I'm just that curious and want to know what has actually changed.

In my opinion, the problem some people might have with updating addons weekly and not daily is that they have "pokemon" syndrome - must catch them all. They feel the urge to have the latest version of their favorite addons, even if those new version do not contain anything useful for them ("updated .toc", "added koKR localization" etc.) just because that version exists. I used to update my favorite programs a lot, before I found out that "new version" doesn't always mean "better version". I don't mean that new versions will contain more bugs than old stable version, but the new functionality (or lack of the functionality you used to love) might be not exactly the way you want to interact with software. For example, I did love Auctioneer Suite pre-3.0.2 post interface and I never got used to the Appraiser interface, so I just had to switch to a more simple addon, but I still keep using Informant, which is a part of Suite and a standalone addon.

Still, I do check for updates daily and I download most of them, if changes seem somewhat useful to me. I'm definitely not scared about wiping at Malygos because of the addon, as (a) I'm using stable versions of addons and (b) I don't let the addons do that much stuff for me, so that if addon fails, I will not know what to do.

How about we turn this around a bit...


Why do you, the OP, feel the need to try and coerce people to do things your way? What do you feel you're losing by wowinterface releasing an updater, and allowing people to have an easier method of addon updating?

I truly understand your position, and if it works for you... Great! But, updating addons is not a zero-sum proposition. You can do it your way, I can do it mine... either way, the adverts are going to be displayed and wowinterface/curse/whatever is going to continue to get the revenue they need to support the site, or they will move to a different model.

Hi Honem,

To clarify - please don't feed me after midnight, or expose me to water. Also bad: bright light! Bright light!

I have to say, I don't think this is actually the case for most updates. I would agree if you were talking about WoWAce - with WAU, a lot of the updates were superfluous, simply because they were updates to addons being hosted in a development environment. But, with Curse (excepting Curseforge), WoWI, and wowui, authors have to actually go through the (admittedly relatively easy) process of releasing the update.

OK, well, see, this is the key point that is the reason I, personally, disagree with your conclusion that people shouldn't be so hasty with installing addon updates: as you say yourself, the author feels they should be getting something out to the public that's new with their addon - as a member of the public, and as a user of said author's addon, I'd like to see what that is, by installing it.

Here's the thing: I actually basically agree with your overall sentiments - I don't think it's necessary to constantly be updating all your addons the second an update is released (and I do mean released :), and people who moan about not having some easier way to do that should shut their filthy heretic mouths.

However, that said, I don't see any reason why people shouldn't update their addons on a near-realtime basis, as long as they do it without any detrimental effects to the people who're providing them with the addons in the first place (ie, the addon hosts, and the addon authors). Sure, there's severely diminishing returns on effort spent updating, and doing so will inevitably result in a net increase in time wasted, but hey - you could say the same thing about WoW itself (a lot of my friends do!); the point is, why not.

I say this because I myself (or, I do when I'm actively playing WoW, at least) have a pretty healthy addiction to keeping up to date with addons: I update every addon before starting the game at least once a day. I've used most all the one-click updaters at some time or another and have tried out (and stuck with a few of) a whole shitload of other methods of keeping up-to-date (eg: email notifications, RSS feeds, SVN checkouts, manual checking, diffbot[1], custom scripts, etc.). I even made a a website to help me (and others) achieve this[2] more easily without stepping on anyone's toes.

So, with that in mind: I completely understand the joy of keeping all your addons on the bleeding edge; and also the pain associated with the loss of a notably efficient and effort-free way to accomplish this (and the moans that are a result of this). But that's life, man.

In conclusion: you're right it's not necessary to pay so much attention to updates, the people who want to update constantly are also right, berating them about the fact that they're wasting their time is right, it's right that addon hosts shouldn't be abused - which makes it right to address situations where they are abused, thus everyone is right and there's no issue here anymore. Right on!

The troll sig needs no excuse! You will obey the Troll sig! Nicht be gerfeedink der trolls!

Stay shiny.

cheers,

- fin

[1] Diffbot: the RSS feed for sites without RSS! Trés handy.
[2] In the entirely selfless interest of informing users about additional benefits my site (wowmods) offers, I feel it my duty to alert anyone reading this that it's also a handy-dandy place to search for addons (currently holding information on 10783 addons), and you can even integrate update information directly into your Google search results! (or add a gadget to your iGoogle homepage, if you have one). Woo, yay, etc.
[3] Hi Seerah!

i think the OP is trying to clear up misconceptions about updating addons.. IE if you dont have the ablsolute latest release of an addon its out of date and unusable...


i my self dont regularly update my mods... cept for one.. AtlaslootEnhanced and thats because new lewts are being found and added for ulduar :D

other than that the way i have been updating my addons is this...
i like to browse the latest addons here on WoWI... to see what kind of new mods are made.. and i look at updated mods to see what they are doing now even if i dont use them... occasionally i run across a mod that i do use and check it out to see if the changes are important enough for me download...

generally i up date a mod or two every other day.. again depending on if i need it or not.. there have been times where i went nearly 2 weeks without updating a mod.. and nothing i ever had was broken...

i guess it just really boils down to personal preference... but there are people out there that seem to think that if they dont have an auto-updater, that manually updating mods is unbearably painful... its really not..


i will prolly use the new Minion updater in about the same fashion im updating now... browse and reading the change logs :D

Updating manually is painful IF you have this compulsion to update every addon every day. Which as has been stated is not just unnecessary but in my eyes downright laughable.

Nothing wrong with having an updater do your installs for you. I personally plan to use it from time to time.

As has been said and is the overall point of this topic, you do not need to update daily for everything you have.

1) Update if its broken

2) Update if there is a compelling reason (read: bug fix, new feature) beyond " ooooh shiny there is a new version number so i obviously need to have it to be current!!! **froths at the mouth**" Your welcome to do it how you like. Keep in mind the consequences of this action as there are bound to be many folks using the same logic.

3) Use what ever method you prefer from the sites you get your addons from that are allowed. Be it manually. An updater. Osmosis. Telepathy. UPS. FedEx. Bacon transfer apparatus or whatever.

Everyone is entitled to handle the situation as they see fit within the constraints of the TOS of the various websites they use. How you like to handle it is your business.

While i dont personally see a reason to update constantly (276 primary folders including all the modules of individual addons, ballpark of 225 ignoring modules) and i do visit the sites daily for news and various other bits its very VERY infrequent that any of my addons have an update. Let alone a significant one.

Fin , Midgetmage55 says it to you better than I can.

I write this thread after the continuing furor that came about from the wow matrix block.

People have become addicted to thinking they need to download every single update out there for every single addon they have. They used to do it manually , found it hard then found out about Wowmatrix.

Now it's almost like their updating muscle has anthrophied - Wowmatrix gets taken away and they can see no alternative methods of updating. They feel like they've been cast back to the dark ages in updating their mods and they get mad!

My thoughts were if I get them to figure out the fundamentals of why they should be updating I could get them to change their minds about the source of why they were getting mad - wow matrix gets taken away and now they have no way of getting their addons updates simply and quickly.

I should emphasize that while i dont necessarily agree with updating everyday and do indeed find it silly. In the end its the users call. The point of this thread should be to educate the uneducated on this subject of is it actually necessary. Sadly i'd bet most of those folks wouldnt see this topic anyway. Live by the updater, die by the updater so to speak.

There will be folks that fully understand that they dont need to update every day.I believe Fin falls in to this category. For some they are aware and still choose to do so and that is a choice that we all need to respect even if we dont understand.

Anything beyond educating people on the subject (for those that are not aware how addon development works) its just a personal debate on beliefs. While i may not share Fin's view on the subject i can respect the choice.

Personally I like my UI stable. I like that an addon I don't always use doesn't generate UI errors when I load it up to use for the 1 time I use it per week.

Any update you download has the potential to do so. I would prefer to know exactly why I should be installing this update. I don't like blindly installing stuff.

A change log will show what an author's changed about an addon.

Quickly examining change logs is central to my plan of updating. Without it I wouldn't be able to disregard 50-75% of the emails/notifications of updated addons I get. I only play in English so any localisation changes get thrown out. Similarly with Tagging changes.

With the "install it and see" method you run the risk of it either breaking something , eventually breaking something further down the line or changing how a feature of your addon works. And that means further wasted time for you when you have to go track down what went wrong , how it went wrong and how to fix it.

To me examining change logs isn't a waste of time because I'm not doing it every single day. Updating my addons isn't something I do a lot. So I don't really care if it takes 10 minutes or 45 minutes.

For me instead of blindly installing every update an author comes out with I examine the change logs instead :) (hint authors if you want me to install your updates just put the keywords "major rewrite" or "code optimisations" somewhere in it)

Like MidgetMage's said above.

This thread's all about changing attitudes towards updating addons.

Why do we update our addons ?
Is it necessary to do this every day ?
Do I need to download every single update that comes out ?
Is an updater client the only fast and easiest way to do this ?

Theres many different methods of updating that work equally well for people - updater clients, RSS, SVN , email updates , favourites , bookmarks etc etc etc. At the end of the day you'll use w/e is comfortable for you.

It's about changing the attitude of downloading every single addon update that comes out and that you have to do it every single day.

So to answer your question : I'm not trying to co-erce people to my method of updating. If I did I would of named the thread "The one true method of updating" or "This updating method pwns all others".

I love it how they are coming out with a new updater client. The more ways of updating the method.

I'm just trying to change peoples attitude to where they don't need to use it every single day nor to download every single update and no an update program is not the only way you can update an addon.

I can remember the days when someone would say "you need to update <suchnsuch>", it would mean that you yourself, had to open your editor of choice and edit line 121, line 144-148, and update version number in the .toc. I was a MazzleUI user, though, so not everyone had that issue. I do think updating in that way was more rewarding though; it also helped to make me aware of what went into creating addons... and it was nice to not have to depend on the original author to update some of the more simple addons...

sorry for the semi offtopic post, I'm still confused at how some people claim 'manually' updating addons is too hard/time consuming, when clearly, it could be much worse.

Well I for one apologise for any undue tone that may be read into my words. What I'm trying to change peoples minds about is how , why and when they update their addons. I'm not trying to say "shame on you for using an automatic updater".

What I'm trying to combat is the attitude out there that you *must* update your addons every day (or every 2 days or some other arbitrary regular interval) and that an automatic updater client is the only fast and easy option to update your addons.

There is many many many varied ways of updating your addons. An automatic updater program is not the only option out there ...

Would respectefully like to point out I'm not the only person who uses this method of updating. I'm not some archic hermit in the woods whos invented his own special way of cutting grass :D

Omen has access to the direct threat numbers now so other raiders not having the latest version doesn't matter anymore. DBM and Bigwigs have been known to off by a few seconds even with the latest updates installed. Possible due to latency , possibly due to hot fixes made , possibly due to a new raid instance being out . I don't believe a few seconds off here and there really matters - IMHO a good decent raid can adjust itself for litte "suprises" like that here and there. I often hear over vent someone saying that DBM must be a few seconds out so one of the tanks has to taunt a few seconds earlier. All part of raiding IMHO.
I treat my UI as a closed working system.

That is for each update I think "why should I download this?" "why should I risk breaking my working system?"

This is why authors provide change logs for. They show exactly why they updated. Bear in mind they know that not every update they do will be for everyone. Also I get notifications of plenty of localisation updates. Most of the stuff they release are relatively minor updates . I know this because I read the change logs for every email I get.

So yes. It's my UI. I should decide wheter I want to download build v3698 of an addon or not. Is it worth my time downloading it ? My finger is just itching to press that delete key to ignore that update. I need to be given a reason to download that update. If I have no reasons to download then I don't waste my time on it :D

Most of the time when an author recommends updating to the latest patch of an addon it's because they've fixed a bug or made some kind of code optimization somewhere. If the change loge mentions fixing a bug I've personally been getting then of course I update it. Code optimizations are also nice too - it shows the authors figuring out more efficient ways of doing things and I'm all for that :D

Let me start this post by saying I respect your opinions as your own, and I am not intending to flame anybody here. Just going to answer back and share my own point of view/opinion.

Well actually everything you have posted on this thread seems to contradict your statement that you're "not trying to say 'shame on your for using and automatic updater'". The point you are using as your basis for why you are trying to change peoples' minds is because of all the problems that you say automatic updaters have caused in the addon community. So if you truly believe those facts to be true (I for one have not seen anything substantiated) then you are inferring that anyone who uses or wants to use an automatic updater is contributing to these "problems".

I would like to think that most people realize that automatic updaters aren't the only way to update. And I agree that the whole email notification system is one valid way of doing it. Shoot I rather like it. I just don't like the suggestion about not updating addons for weeks, months, years???


Being that I have no exact numbers for what the majority of the WoW population uses as guidelines to update or not to update I'll have to stick to my own experiences here. In my experience most players that I know update their addons at least 1-2 times per week, more often if crucial addons/updates are released. So that is why I stated that your method for judging an update seemed "off the beaten path".

As far as errors caused during raiding yes I agree that some can be played around. We have all seen the timers on boss mods be a few seconds off. I'm not new to raiding here so I realize that. But sometimes you don't know the timer is off until a wipe is caused and then you've lost time. I see this happen more often when different people are running different versions of addons. I would rather keep everyone updated and then just deal with the curve balls here and there.

Well I really can't disagree with this part of what you said. It is up to you to decide what you want and don't want to download and install. Each person had to decide this for themselves. And they have to decide which they prefer to do things and to each their own. I just don't agree with someone who tries to push their way on others, and I fully disagree with suggesting to people that they go extended periods of time without updating.

I think Curse.com, WoWI, etc. are in a position to truly look at the facts and the impact of automatic updaters on the overall community. The fact that they are both releasing their own automatic updaters tells me that things aren't that bad as some might say. So I'll take the 1-3 minute update they provide and backout any updates that I install that break my UI until a fix (which is usually available by the time I notice a problem) is available.

Now, see, this is the way a proper debate should happen. Disagreement while respecting the opinions of another, stated in a courteous and civil manner. Thank you. :)

What's that supposed to mean???

/stop
/drop
/roll

When I started these threads (there is one like this on Curse) I admit that it was my goal to demonize the use of automatic updater programs.

Ok still with me ? Good :D

The thing is with someone's opinion it can change over time with more and more discussion on the topic. Even the hardest rock wears down over time with water as Confusicous would say.

I'm now of the opinion that yes you can use an automatic updater program if that floats your boat. Whatever gets the job done quicker for you. It doesn't matter which tool you use to get the job down - checks in from SVN , email updates , favourites list on wow interface, automatic updater programs , IRC and watching for when they submit new updates to the repo , pan handling in front of the author's place of work ... (ok getting a little off track there :D)

What matters to me is how often you update you addons and why.

Do you really need every single update an author comes out with ? If there's a bug then you update to the latest version anyway

Here's the thing - if somethings working why update it ?

What I mean here is if it's
* Still working
* Not producing any errors
* Not producing any bugs
* Does everything you need it to do.
* Nothing else you would want it to (this includes being smaller in memory/cpu usage)

Then you should be able to afford to go long lengths of time without a single update.

If all the above is true then you don't need to update that addon. That's my point with my whole "don't download this update" thing. You don't need to download every single update out there. Some addons will work absolutely fine without any updates to them as long as they aren't producing any bugs.

EG I'm still using an addon that does 1 thing and does it really well. It was last updated in July 2006. It's a few lines of code (maybe 7 or 8) for hooking the tooltip onto the mouse. The API call it uses hasn't been changed so it doesn't need an update.

Ok my friend :D. My experience from posts from wow matrix users is slightly different.

They come into a forum where something like this is being discussed and blast the decision by wowinterface/curse to block WM. Not to get off topic here but I assume that if they are so angry because they are now in convenienced because of this. From this I then assume that they are updating all their mods every day or every 2 days.

Now if it's 1-2 times per week does it really matter how long it takes you ? Or what method you use to update ?

Well I don't know about that. During the bad days of Threat-2.0 if you had different versions of addons it would cause you to be having different threat numbers.

Those days are past us. We now have accurate threat numbers. I don't know of any particular addons that cause problems when you have different versions of the addons.

What my former raid leader use to do for essential raid mods was to post a link to the stable versions of the essential raid mods to the guild forums. He would tell the whole guild "before raiding check this thread and make sure you have these versions of the raid mods downloaded.

I'm not trying to push my way onto others. If I have then I sincerely apologise. You can lead a horse to water but no matter what you do sometimes you just can't get him to drink.

And what's the worse thing that can happen if you can for extended periods of time without updating ? Have a wee think about that and let me know what you think :D

I think Shirik's posted that roll backs are a feature coming in a later version. That would be cool :D

PS I've not looked at any of my addon update emails since May 03. I did have a problem with Chatter that I did download an update for. Other than that the rest of my addons have not been updated since then. My UI is working fine.

Well this post has shed a bit more light on where you currently stand and what your thinking. Now it sounds like your just supporting a system that your experience has found to be the best route. Like I said I like the email notifications, and if it weren't for Minion I would start adapting that part of it. And I am going to assume that you mean May 3rd and not May 2003? Amirite? Gotta be because WoW wasn't released until 04. ;P

I will just say that truly my experience has shown that updating regularly is the way to go. I personally recommend at least 1-2 times per week, TBH for my raiders I'll be recommending a Minion update check each raid day.

The other thing I would like to bring up is that not all traffic and bandwidth usage is bad, in fact quite the contrary if managed correctly. The other reason why I suggest regular updates, especially with the business model that is being implemented with Minion is that sites like WoWI are supported by donations and ads. Minion will be utilizing adds so by using Minion you are helping to support WoWI. If everyone only updated every month or so you might see some of the sites we love starting to struggle and/or disappearing.

You're very welcome. Thank you for bringing such an awesome site to the addon community.

I'm going to add a little more food for thought here.. I am one of the many that runs my updater every day, and 'blindly' updates with any changes... I'm fully aware and capable of using a method similar to what has been suggested. Now this is where the opposing argument comes in, I personally choose not to waste my time with reviewing every little change and deciding whether or not this is a change I need. You have your way, you like it better, and it works for you. This is the important feature for anyones updating method. My counter point, and likewise, I'm not trying to change anyones mind on how to do things, is that the time you spend checking your e-mail, reading the changes, deciding which updates to get, downloading them, installing them, etc.. actually wastes more time than firing up the updater seeing an update, clicking the install button and moving on. And just to make sure it's clear, whether intended or not, the statement was essentially made that your method actually takes less time than an auto-updater. Also, your posts do have that preachy feel to them, though I'm also not the greatest at getting my true intent and feeling across in text form :P

Yeah May 3rd 2009.

I did update Prat but only because I was getting an error when I went to invite someone. It's an intermittant problem so it hasn't come up often enough for me to worry about. Not sure if I fixed or not but oh well :)

If there's one thing i'ld like you to take from this little conversation is that you don't need every update that comes out. If you only play in one language then you shouldn't need to download localization updates for a language you don't play in. Localization & tagging changes can usually be safely ignored.

This is why I take a quick squeeze at the change logs - I'm trying to reduce the number of things I have to look at. If the only change on an email update email is something about tagging or an update for a specific locale then I delete it and go to the next thing.

When Minion comes out I'll have a look at using it. But only to reduce the time spent examing emails - i'll still be mark stuff as not to update based on if I think it's a major enough change to update.

But do you know what's being updated ? And why ?

And do you need to download every single update that comes out ?

You see I've examined the change logs for a lot of addons that update regularly. Recount is the only one out of the ones I keep an eye on that gets regular updates and I update that when I get into a PUG group with people I don't know. The rest are for the most part localisation changes and tagging changes.

Prat is the only addon I've updated in 3 weeks. I don't see any error that come up regularly in play. All my addons do exactly what I've been using them for.

Personally I prefer to know exactly what's changed instead of updating something and assuming it's going to be optimization or needed bug fix

My point continues to be when updating you don't need to do it every day.

I'm not doing this whole update process every single day. It's either every week or every 2 weeks. I'm late for my regular update schedule as I'm waiting for one of my addons to break. They aren't breaking dang name it !

So let's do comparison for my way against yours :

Your way:

Open a program
Click an update all program
Downloads all the updates
Installs them in the correct place.

Estimated time taken : 5 mins

You do this every day.

My way :

Alt-Tab to my email client
3-5 minutes going through emails.
3-5 minutes going through multiple addon pages
Downloading time.
2 Minutes to install them

Estimated time taken 8 - 14 minutes

I do this every 2 weeks.

So in the time I take to do one update you would already of updated 14 times (once per day).

14 X 5 minutes = 70 minutes you've spent spread over 2 weeks updating your addons.

So my counter point is - If you do have to compare the two methods you need to take into consideration the fact that I only update every 2 weeks while you've done it every day. I could use an automatic update program to assist me in doing this but it's only going to save me a few minutes here and there on a process that takes me no more then 15 minutes every 2 weeks.

Lastly not a personal dig but when writing a response to someone a good thing to do for readability is to put paragraphs in your response. Your wall of text without any paragraphs in it just about critted me for 9999 damage :(

Well the only problem I see in your math is that all us auto updaters have to do is hit update and then we can walk away and grab a snack/drink before we play. The process pretty much runs itself so all in all your talking 1 second to double click the desktop button and then another second to push the update all button. The rest of the time you can be zoning on whatever else, browsing the web, snacking, etc. So your talking about 14 seconds per week/28 for 2 weeks. Whereas your method requires you to be focused on the task the entire time. So no cookies for joo! :p :)

OP, I largely agree with your sentiment. The whole addon updating addiction can be traced back to Omen, which proved superior to KTM and thus required everyone to jump on to it, but was updated multiple times a day and each version was somewhat incompatible with its previous, necessitating each entire guild to be running the same build number. Thus came the unwashed masses to WAU to update their Omen (and everything else) just before raid time each day.

That being said.. the whole point of an addon like QuestHelper (or Lightheaded, or Carbonite, or any number of other similar services) is to bring out-of-game help into the in-game environment. If there is anything wrong in the addon I use for this purpose for which the only workaround is alt-tab, I consider the addon majorly broken.

I guess the point is then, that if you have to take the time to download a fix for a broken add on, which we all know happens, that you might as well grab the updates for the rest of your addons. Some of the extra updates might be minimal localization updates while others provide really cool new features and performance tweaks. Either way with an auto updater it is a single button push "Update Addon" or "Update All". ;)

^^This^^

It looks like you stunned and astonished Cairenn so much she even used a regular smilie :D

Just to add on topic, I come from the school of thought that addons change frequently, thank you ThreatLib and a few others, lol. Since that has changed, so have my methods.

My stance being that I truly enjoy the convenience (yup, I'm lazy and don't want to unzip them myself, even though I do know how) that updaters provide, but I also prefer to be an informed consumer by keeping tabs on what has changed and why. So before hitting the update/update all buttons I peruse the changelogs of any updated addons. Then make my decision on what to update.

I think you're still missing my point here.

By the time i've updated my addons or any of one of addons once you've already updated 14 times. So you've run a program before logging into wow every single day when me I just use the program's I've already got open to do it.

What I'm trying to get people to see is you don't need to download every update that comes out and you don't need to do this every day.

Like I've said above. If you move updating your addons to be something you don't do very often then it doesn't matter what method you use. You just don't need to be hitting up any servers for addon updates every day.

Lastly I'm wondering - do you let the process of updating stop you from logging in ?

I doubt that an updater client can check all the updates , download them all and unzip them in 1 second. This timing is included in the time I say to people of how long it takes me to update my addons. Start to finish. Under 15 minutes.

Are you spent waiting for the addon updates to finish downloading before you log into wow?

If so why ?

The wow ace packager was a tad bit insane. It would package up a new zip each time an author would submit an update. Often times it was a minor update that 75% of the WAU users did not need.

An author makes a change in his russian localisation. It's maybe 4 or 5 lines of code. The packager makes a new zip version automatically. 1.7899 billion wow players all click their magic "update all" buttons. That's a ton of necessary bandwidth. Bandwidth paid for mainly by Kaelten btw :(

My analogy was flawed IMHO. I was trying to say "if this addon breaks ....this is what you can do as an alternative".

I was not trying to condemn the use of QH or Carbonite here. I use Carbonite as a radar . QH's too big too bright and too "there is only one way to do these quests and you will follow the arrows or DIAF" for me. For me the fun of questing is how chaotically you can do quests.

Personally I prefer not to play Russian Roulette with addon updates :eek:

I prefer to know _exactly_ what addons have changed and why.

Not only because it places me in a much better position when it comes time to fix something but also so if my friends are having problems I'm better equipped to help them with their problems.

I'm actually thinking of evolving my addon strategy further.

Each maintenance day I update. These happen every 2 weeks so they are spaced far enough apart so my updating isn't ridiculously often. On these nights I've got nothing to do all night so it should fit in well. It's also easier to remember to do it on that night.

I'll use an updater client to see specifically what's addons have been updated - at the moment i get an email for each build submitted of an addon so a way to reduce the duplicate emails I look at would be good.

I'll still do my Major update/ Minor update thing by checking the change logs for the addons in question. I'll keep getting the addon update emails so they provide a good backup when I'm wanting to do a quick search of change logs.

Well I would be careful about using the phrase "Russian Roulette", just because an update is minimal doesn't mean it is harmful. I usually check for updates daily so that I can stay on top of what is available and keep my raiders updated too. I only run into about 3 addons per year that actually glitch or break my UI and those can be disabled without even leaving the game. And as I said in a previous post that fixes are usually released before I have a chance to check for them. I am probably going to continue checking for updates daily via Minion once it is released unless WoWI releases some sort of statement asking us to limit our queries/downloads. And if they setup Minion's business model the right way (which I am confident they are) I just don't see that happening. And if there is at least one update available I might as well hit "Update All" instead of "Update Addon". I really don't feel like keeping up with a growing backlog of what I want to update and what I don't want to update as time passes.

Personally, I look at changelogs religiously. Some may think it's silly or a waste of time, but frankly, if there are "cool new features" that have been added and it's a raid night for me, I don't want to risk those new features being buggy. Tanking and errors don't mix well. :p

I see a lot of generalisations about whether or not every update is a good thing, but I think it's all situational. Yes, a DBM/BigWigs update would be something I would like to have installed on raid night, but do I need the latest version of a questlog or fishing addon (for example) for my raid when I wouldn't be using it and mine was working just fine before? Probably not, and I could safely wait until later to update it. Bear in mind that, even if I don't have a use for that questlog/fishing addon in my raid, it still could cause problems. I think this is the kind of situation that honem is getting at...you run just as much "risk of experiencing problems" by updating right before a raid as you would if you had not updated at all...even moreso if you weren't experiencing problems before updating to begin with.

My personal take on updating is that I don't care if you use software to do it automagically or you do it by hand, but blind updating (e.g. without looking at changelogs at all) and saying it's good in every single case is somewhat foolish. I want to know what I'm installing and how the updates are going to affect my UI and playtime.

It takes me a minute to disable and addon and reload my UI if something is broken. I mean thank God addons aren't tattoos... they can be removed easily. So what risk is there?

There are 2 underlying schools of thought at work here.

(1) Maximize in game time. Log in and no worries.

(2) Deal with the issue after the fact. Get logged in and playing as soon as possible.

[NOTE: These are personal observations. Not taken verbatim from comments]

Change log reading folks seem to be the majority of people who fall in to group 1 while update all frequently fall in to group 2.

The subtle irony of this is both parties are after convenience though on totally opposite sides of the coin. In an ideal situation you would be able to take any and all updates AND not have to disable anything due to new bugs after the fact.

And before either side of the debate tries to state that its not the case, take a moment and read all the comments again. I promise you'll get a little giggle out of it.

Not an attack on anyone, just a humorous observation.

No I agree with you fully actually, and have been aware of it since the start of the "debate". My only issue with what was originally being posted was that the suggestion to only update add ons every blue moon. But another point is that even if you are a change log checker you'll still have to back out some addons once logging in. Last time I checked change logs didn't predict UI breaks/bugs/glitches unless they were alpha/beta releases. So really there is no such thing as group 1 as you have categorized. We all have to deal with backing out addons from time to time. You follow me?

Does Minion have a "changlog" popup, a la Curse? If so, that's one click, and an additional box pops up with a neat, scrollable little box containing the changelog. If it's a go, hit update. If it's a Russian localization, skip it and move on. Seems like it could speed up your process, by pulling up the changelog without the fluff of a browser + webpage, plus the speedy and easy addon downloading/unpacking.

This isn't an "updaters rule, other methods drool" style post, but rather, a "how can one develop a new approach?" one.

My post is about personal mentalities. Its a given fact that bugs and conflicts are a possibility. Thats why i referred to them as schools of thought.

No, don't get me wrong. I understand what your post was. But you did bring up the whole two sides of the coin which reminded me that really "group 1" would not really be favored on either side. I get that you're staying out of the debate. I think everyone is at this point, but rather now explaining their logic so that others can understand why they do what they do.

Being that i generally fall in to group 1 i can say from experience that i most certainly am favored on one side and not the other. A guild mate of mine falls in to category 2 and while he has some of the newest and slickest mods and/or updates he also tends to have to disable addons more frequently. [note: more frequently as in 3-4x a week where i havent had to disable an addon in over a month.] but he uses less memory and tends to be up to date on features that i may be missing.

Do you honestly think that people in group 1 would continue to do what they do if there was no advantage for them? Just because you dont see the benefit doesnt mean there isnt one. Same applies to people in the other direction. People generally find a style of doing things that gives them some sort of benefit while suiting their personality.

Ill explain myself as my example for 1. I have well over 200 addons (excluding sub folders for modules) I havent updated a single addon since patch week. I fixed what was broken. No bugs came from it so i havent bothered to update further. When i see a favorite has an update i take a peek out of curiosity and have passed over some new features that i didnt deem necessary to my needs. Are you implying that even in my current example (additional clarification below) that i gain no advantage/benefit from this?

Do i see an advantage/benefit from updating daily? Certainly. Is it something i personally deem necessary? No.

Will i use the updater when its released? Ill certainly give it a test. If it suits my needs then most definitely i will.

Since the point is obviously gone from a humorous observation to a debate Ill clarify then.

Group 1. Infrequent updates to minimize system impact getting only what they consider necessary.
Upside: More likely to be very stable with few to no bugs.
Downside: Could be missing new features. More likely to be using more memory/cpu cycles due to missing optimizations.

Group 2. Frequent updates to have any new feature and/or be as current as possible.
Upside: More likely to have an optimized system. More likely to have newer features sooner.
Downside: More likely to have bugs show up on a more frequent basis.

The issue i see in this entire debate is folks are talking in absolutes. This is far from reality. There are ALWAYS exceptions. We can nitpick all day little details about how this analogy or that one can be proven inaccurate on a case by case basis. Politics anyone? ><

In the end everyone will pick what they like and suits their way of doing things. Its a preference. If one version over another was that much of a benefit the majority would most likely (notice i dont speak in an absolute statement) use it. The benefits of any system of updating are utilized by an individual to suit their needs and personalities.

Ive avoided the debate as a whole (and i like to think the above reinforces this) because i dont see any HUGE difference in the end result of either system. Do I think updates needs to be done daily? Certainly not. Nor do i think that my way of doing things will satisfy anyone else. Im not anyone else so i cant speak for them. That however is MY way of looking at it. And thats the only person i can speak intelligently on.

I'm not trying to argue against your preference, I'm just stating that mine is different. I don't see the value in having the latest features/changes/whatever right this second and can wait until I have more time to test things out. My personal experiences have taught me to be a bit more cautious with blind updating, but perhaps you've had better luck than I have.

Look, this isn't about "my way's better" to me...I believe each side has merit. I just choose to do things in a way that isn't how you choose to do it. Agree to disagree ;)

I don't think you have read all of the posts in this thread or you wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about what I was or wasn't inferring. It seems like you are lost to the full context of my replies as they apply to the overall discussion. I myself posted the same thing you just did above. To each their own and that everyone will find their own way, so please don't preach at me what I have already said from my original post. ;)

Of course I understand that both systems have pros/cons. But if you want my honest opinion AGAIN, I truly believe that regular updates provides a better overall gaming experience, performance wise. And again I have to back out maybe 3 add ons per year and that was the case even before I used an auto updater. I don't think anyone is oblivious to variables here, so not sure why you feel absolution is prevalent in this discussion. /shrug

Well said.

Ive read your statements. Ive followed the thread. I was (attempting) replying solely to the statements in reply to mine. In your own words you stated that the "group 1" i described really wasnt favored on either side of the coin. Which i disagree with and I chose to clarify why each method has its benefits and why. If you hadnt claimed that i wouldnt have replied at all. It was simply an elaboration.

As is my usual way i tend to take elaboration to an extreme. Once i felt i had to go beyond my original comments i personally felt the need to put my full 2c in to qualify my statements. Though the core of my reply was in response to the above statement.

I dont feel you were inferring anything nor was i trying to preach at you or i would have said as much. If thats the tone you got from my statement then i apologize. It was not my intent. I had hoped my original bit of humor was self explanatory. I see now that it wasnt so i felt the need to to explain more for the masses reading this.

Meh, no worries.

Newbie with manual addons
 

I just got the add on We dont wipe and saw that today there is a new updated one due to Patch 5.04 coming out. It looks as if the only thing i will need to do is just change the module only since it was for my Elemental Shaman.

My questions is this, will i need to delete the module file, dl the new one, extract and put where it needs to go and change any wording on it with WOW not on and when i turn it back on for more gaming it will be done correctly? Sorry if i sound ignorant or dumb i have only used curse and like most others i do the automatic download. I want to make sure that i do it correctly and have a fun gaming experience.

Thanks for reading and for the answser,

Kimberley

In most cases simply overwriting the old version with the new one is enough :)
Addon authors will usually specifically state if you need to delete an old version before updating.

I'm an addon author since nearly 5 year long, and every release i push fix a bug add a new feature or simplify the code. Yes there are releases which only contains localization updates but if you don't play wow on english client that may fix stuff too.

Noone tell you how frequently you should update your addons, but there could be certain issues if you use an older version of an addon while someone else in your party/raid use a newer version and the addon communcates with each other.

Also the number of bug report from old versions are too damn high when you already fixed that bug like half years ago.

Update Client
 

A major frustration for me is that on the websites where my "We Don't Wipe" AddOn is hosted, players cannot handle a process of installation which to me seems rather trivial.

My "We Don't Wipe" AddOn is NOT "Instal Client" friendly.

I have had to make a change, timed for Patch 5.4, to simplify the installation of modules into We Don't Wipe, because it is clear to me that otherwise competent players are struggling with the manual handling of files. It remains that even after Patch 5.4, my AddOn is still not (and never will be unless someone bothers to tell me what to do as I use a Mac) "Instal Client" friendly.

So.... I try to hold off on any kind of update because I just know that I will need to hand hold players with the installation process of the latest update.

Another point is that I resent regular updates of AddOns anyway.

It implies that the developer is amateurish. Yeah, I make programming mistakes but if I just fix on a hunch and release without some testing then I'll be uploading more than once a day.

So if I find that an AddOn is getting regular updates WITHOUT significant feature enhancements then I know the true score: the developer (yeah donating his/her time for free to be sure) is sloppy and I will look elsewhere for a similar feature set.

Just my thoughts.

Edit: OMG!!!! I decided to read through all the posts and there was a mention of my AddOn (in all its inglory). My comments above stand I think.

I truly wish that this player had PMed me or posted a comment on the AddOn's comments page. If think readers will agree with me that these kinds of frustrations are so common and yet so easily resolved.

Perhaps I should add a third point to my previous two:

AddOn authors need to communicate clearly what needs to be done. I think many authors are sometimes deficient in this regard.

The post you quoted is what bumped this 4 year old thread. :p