Magelo for WoW Now in Beta!!
 

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Excellent! I adored Magelo back in EQ.

*Wonders if her old EQ account is actually still around*


/edit Well, if it is, I can't remember what I had it registered under, so I'm gonna go with "Nope, not still there". ;)

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Oooh, this looks really cool.

Thanks for the link Slienia. :)

How does the Magelo Sync thingy work? What does it install exactly and how does it collect data?

What does authentic character means and how is it certified? Why are they not using the armory (or are they)?

Dunno if I can answer all these lol. Magelo Sync grabs your character information right from the game as you are logged in. It installs, well, the Magelo Sync software so you can synch your character(s) lol. I used the one for EQ for almost 3 years... it's perfectly safe.

Authentic I think means that your profile has not been tampered with.. meaning you didn't log into your account there and place bogus stats in there for your toon. It's certified because you can only use their software to sync your characters. No, they do not use the Armory at all.. the information is pulled right from the game while you are running it. I keep mine running and it stays hidden by my system clock. When I'm ready to log into the game, I click on the Icon and choose WoW and the game opens... once I log into a character, I can go back to the little Sync window and synch my character if she has any new items on her, leveled, or got new gear.. it will show up on my profile online for everyone to see (unless I make my character private, which you can do).

I hope I answered those properly heh.

*Edit* This should answer most of your questions, and if not... Jelan and his team are really nice people and will answer whatever questions you have. http://wow.magelo.com/discover_magelo.jspa

Then it is not something for me. I will never use a piece of software which runs at the same time as WoW. This is totally regardless of whoever is publishing it, their intentions, or how well known they are to the community. Give me an addon that collects data which you can upload somewhere (this is the way RPG-Outfitter was doing it). Too bad because there is obviously a huge amount of work and skills in this and the site does look very well polished and integrated :(

That's what I thought after I read about how it collects data on it's site. :(

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It's an executable that runs during WoW, that's mining information from the client. Where isn't there an issue there?
When did Sony come into play with this? The only thing Sony did was make EQ I/II, which Magelo took data from. If Sony banned it from their game, that doesn't mean A) people would have stopped using it, and B) it stops Magelo from being used for other games.

Then if you don't like things running in the back ground. What are mods? If your so against these kinds of mods. Then way don't you start a campaign again the cheats that people are using in wow?

Just fyi, there is a difference between mods (addons) and 3rd party software. Addons do not run in the background - they run from *inside* WoW. Addons are perfectly legit to use, though they are not supported by Blizzard, it is Blizzard's code which allows them to exist/function. If an addon does something that Blizz does not approve of, then Blizz changes their code so that the addon does not work any longer.

(edit) All profiles sites that I have seen, which pull from the game instead of the armory, have an addon (like CharacterProfiler) which saves your data in its saved variables. You then use the site's software or something like UniUploader to send that addon's saved variables to their server to display on the site. Saved variables are only written to upon logout or reloading the UI. (/edit)

I am curious about this Magelo as well. If there is not an addon to install and their sync program does not pull from the saved variables of such an addon, then... WoW is a closed box. The only way for 3rd party software to interact with WoW or get data from WoW legitly is if Blizz allows it (iTunes on Macs, the display panel on G-15 keyboards, etc.).

How exactly does Magelo grab your information in "real time" while you play, and will Magelo get you banned? I don't know the answers.

Since it seems that this program is against the TOS, and it hasn't been explicitly approved by Blizzard (at least not yet), then we advise people not to use it until you hear more information. We would hate to see people banned for this. Warden (the part of WoW that looks for stuff like this) might not like the looks of what this program is doing, as what it does (it seems to read from what WoW puts into memory?) is against the TOS.

The link will be removed from the first post. If Blizzard officially and explicitlly approves of what this program does, or if they change their method of acquiring their data, then (and only then) will we endorse this software.

Blizzard is not SOE and WoW is not EQ. Just want to be safe, people. :)

i think Kaomie was saying:

"instead of an executable running in the background while WoW runs, i'd be more comfortable with an addon that simply collects data (such as in an SV file, for example) which i can then upload to a site. this would provide the same functionality in a safer manner"

i don't think she was confusing Magelo with an addon.

Exactly. Magelo *not* being an addon is the sole point of people's concern over it.

Wheres the option for me to remove my account from this forum?

I don't get it. Why would they go through the trouble of making a third-party executable when that information could be already gleaned either via an in-game add-on or an already established interface into Blizzard's databases, i.e. the armoury. It seems like they've overcome a significant technical challenge (reading complex structured data about your character by examining a running copy of the WoW process) that explicitly violates the TOS for little to no benefit.

Am I missing something? Are they able to get important information that they are not able to get through the standard two mechanisms? If not, then that does sound very suspicious.

Beats me Mazzle. If you except bags and keyring content I guess everything else could be retrieved from the Armory.

However Magelo Sync does more than collecting data, it also seems to act as a bridge between WoW and the Magelo site: depending on live contextual data (zone you enter, mob you are fighting) it displays the appropriate additional information and gives links to the corresponding pages on the site. Again this is a very good idea, but it still breaks WoW ToS.

Nonetheless I am pretty sure they could come up with a very similar product and service using an addon or set of addons. You may not be able to directly click on links to open web pages, but it could be close enough. It is not like we did not have those discussions regarding addons pulling info from external databases, so they do exist already (and so far have been ruled to be okay).

I was thinking they used an external app to better control access to the information based on subscriptions (after they get out of beta), but if the website is designed appropriately it should not even matter at that point. Maybe it was just all a matter of offering the easiest solution for users with an all-in-one simple app.

Hopefully they just overlooked the WoW ToS based on their experience with EQ, or like you said we are missing something somewhere.

I have to say you are all incredibly funny.. Who cares if you don't want to use it cause you don't understand how it works. Who cares if you want to use it there is no reason to bite peoples heads off.. This person was just giving some information. I used Magelo for yrs and yrs with EQ also. It's a prog that has been around for a very long time. Like i said befor who cares if your goin to use it or not. Nobody was askin if you were. ?Just give out info about the prog :P

Actually, I'm glad the others weighed in with their opinions, I totally agreed with the one that said "Blizzard is not SOE and WoW is not EQ". Both programs have different TOS's. By others giving their opinion I now have more information to decide for myself to try the software and take the chance of getting banned or not. And considering that I really enjoy playing the game, I'll settle on not trying it and continue playing with peace of mind.

Nobody is " rippin peoples heads off " :(

People are just pointing out that this acts as a 3rd person program. And as such is a violation of the TOS. And can get you BANNED.

How would you like to be an innocent player and get banned over something like this???

Yes that was my only point, Cairenn reply was a bit too much "okay it's kool" for me and I think it could have implicitly led people to think it was totally safe to use this, while this has yet to be agreed upon. Seerah cleared up things afterwards. Now if Silenia decides to take offense and leave instead of maybe keeping the dialog open and relaying the info to Magelo not much we can do, can we?

Not coming back on Alkar self-contradicting post. "Ignorance is bliss" like they say :p

Well, Cairenn was a big EQ player, and loved magelo for EQ. Which EQ was fine with. So, she was originally excited. When we started talking about how it worked and thinking about the TOS, though, she's as concerned about it as the rest of us.


For those of you who are curious, the relevant part of WoW's Terms of Use is this:

To Silenia:
I hope you do not choose to leave this community. I don't believe that anyone was jumping on you, we just wanted to make sure that you were aware of the risks and the TOS. Thank you for your link to the app - it does look very interesting, and I would use it myself if i knew for certain that it was safe. Yet, alas, we do not know if it is approved by Blizzard. That is the only point we are trying to make. Please, take our concerns back to the Magelo staff and reconsider your choice of leaving. :)

Can everyone please stop getting their panties in a twist? We don't know for sure if Blizz will be okay with this program or not. No one has said definitively that you will get your account banned if you use it. No one has said definitively that you won't. Hows about everyone takes a step back and wait until we can get some verification from Blizz, hmmm?

Why shouldn't they ok it. They ok the cheat programs by not going after them! Please don't tell me they do. Do a BG and watch the 5party or shm doing everything insink or the melee classes who cast human graphic heals on themselves over and over again.

I was just wondering too if an application that runs outside of WoW to gather information could also be exploited by a keylogger to grab account info behind the scenes. As I don't know what kind of security measures they have taken and I don't know how Blizzard security differs from EQ, I'm making this statement as a purely random thought.

Please pardon our ignorance Silenia as we learn more about this and how it might work with WoW. This has nothing to do with our confidence in you or your word of confidence about this app... we just ask your patience as we assure that it's safe (and legal) with WoW.

To be honest with you, I never thought anything of it. I mean, yes Bliz and Sony are two different companies and yes they have a different set of rules. However, Sony is no different than Bliz in that they do not allow you to use 3rd party software. Hell, after quitting EQ and then coming to this area of the site once I began playing WoW, I totally flipped out because you guys offered addons. I immediately thought they were illegal simply because they are in EQ. Of course, after talking with a friend (and getting laughed at) I was assured that addons for WoW are legit even though they are outlawed in EQ.

However, I can see what you're saying about the TOU/TOS 3rd party software. I will just find it ironic if it plays out that Magelo is a bannable offense, thats all.

I've written private email to Jelan and also posted over there. We'll see what happens. I hope we can use it as I love the service and it will positively put the Armory and all the others to shame.

Edit: I know it doesnt matter, but I wanted to say it anyway. Most, if not all, of the high end raiding guilds in EQ will not accept an applicant without a Magelo profile. That's how good the service is.

/sigh.

People who KNOWINGLY use 3rd party programs KNOW the risk they are taking.

People who innocently download a program thinking it is perfectly legal DONT know the risk they are taking.

Understand?

/me hugs Silenia. I was all excited about it too, as was obvious by my first post. I adored it back in EQ. But then I thought about it more and realized that it might be a problem. Hence our follow up posts removing the links until we can find out for sure. It truly wasn't anything against you Silenia, you should know us better than that by now. :)

I am trying to talk to my friends at Blizz to see if any of them can give me a definitive answer. So everyone just relax about it until we can find out, please?

And for those of you who are quoting chapter and verse to belittle other users: Stop.

a) You aren't Blizzard. They have made exceptions before. Let me investigate. Quoting chapter and verse in and of itself is fine, except for the fact that:
b) You are breaking the site rules. Courtesy and respect, remember?

Saying that it appears to break the ToU/EULA as it currently stands is one thing. Using those to tell someone they are stupid for not understanding your point is something else entirely, and that is completely unacceptable. I quote the ToU/EULA as much or more than you, believe me, but I don't do it in such a way as to be rude to someone else. Not to mention the fact that I'm asking them about it, so why not just wait and see what sort of answer I get?

I notice you're an addon author, so I will assume you have some programming experience. Why don't you post over there and ask about the keylogger stuff and what precautions they are taking for security? I personally wouldn't know where to begin to ask about such things.

On a brighter note, if this is legit then it looks pretty damn cool.

/hugs back

I'm sorry I was overly sensative. I just got so excited because I remember before I even considered playing that Jelan had mentioned working on Magelo for WoW (it's been that long), so I know that the project has been a long time in the making. Since quitting EQ I have been dropping by the Magelo site every now and then to see if I could find out any news, and lo and behold there it was. I never thought for a moment about the TOS and I guess I should have.

Ditto sweetie, ditto.

No worries, just glad you aren't leaving us. :)

I just want to say me too Silenia... glad you're staying! :)

Thank you, dear. :)

omg stop.. you're causing my tear ducts to secrete extra fluids :p

Hooray everyones on the same page now!

Was a bit bumpy but it did raise the level of awareness on the ToS point ;)

Thanks,

Jelan lives in Switzerland, so it may take a bit to get a reply. Hopefully it will be soon... not knowing is bugging me lol.

I gave it a go, for curiosity sake, and it's definitely going deep inside the exe. It noted the mob I was last fighting when I hit synchronise. Sounds very much against the way Blizz wants things to run, so I uninstalled it.

Shame, as it looks a very comprehensive tool and the presentation of the website is very good looking. Oh well, I think I can do without. :)
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Would it be possible to make an addon that changes your character tab to look like that? I like its features alot more then the orginals. Especially with the modifiers tab and not have the 3D view because we already have dressing rooms in-game. Also the settings at the bottem right button could be the configuration button for the whole addon so it would be clean and simple to use.

This of course would not be Magelo at all, but an interface addon.

I got a reply over there, but I dunno who the person is that replied. The way they worded it makes it appear they work for Blizzard, but I've also asked for clarification on that too because I want to hear from an official person on the issue.

"There are lots of addons and other programs out there that make use of information sent to clients, Blizz even sends us "items numbers" and "item levels" but its just not used in the generic UI. This is all data that Blizzard designed to be utilized by UI and Add-On designers and makers.

Traditionally, the Magelo client read our games' RAM allotment to gather all its information, which is fine...

Usually when they're talking about things like that in the EULA, its refering to packet sniffers, which intercept and scan our actual network data stream. The data streams tend to carry proprietary information that is not meant to be used by any kind of UI addons, and is for internal game program use only.
Analyzing the data packets, you can find information on objects and other data that would allow for exploits or hacks. Because if you can see the incoming/outgoing data, you can see just about anything (even if its not meant to be seen), or possibly even alter it.

So as long as the Magelo client isn't intercepting our network data streams, and only reading our own computer's RAM, its fine to use."

Does that sound even remotely correct?

The phrasing is a bit odd, espaically the last bit where they talk both of our network and our computer, although that could be a typo and was supposed to mean your computer. Still there's another our (in our game) and they talk about they when the mention the EULA.
Personally, I doubt this is from anyone at Blizzard.

The item numbers and such are sent inside the game through the API, i.e. they are explicitly made available. Other stuff isn't (such as exact mob health). Everything they did make available for us to write addons against is for use inside the game. It makes you wonder why Magelo didn't chose the default way to gather/send information, i.e. write a data file and have the application upload that (like the wowhead uploader or the other character profilers).

Strange...

Rather than looking at the ToS, we probably should be looking at the EULA which better applies here I think:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/eula.html
So we are definitely not only talking about the networking layer, but also at the RAM content. Whether the Sync program can eventually match Blizzard description or not is what we would need clarification on.

We probably should wait until an official Magelo admin answers on their forums or we get some feedback from Cairenn.

PS: by saying "our" I would think the person is using the users point of view, which would be us rather than Blizzard.

IMO, not even remotely. Third-party executables are a pretty specific group that Blizzard says that users cannot utilize. They don't limit it to executables that do packet sniffing, though those would certainly be some of the most egregious violators. Macro programs do not packet sniff. They are not permissible. Many auto-leveling or gold farming bot programs do nothing more than what is described in their response to you, i.e. inspect memory, in that case to determine sensory inputs to choose actions. They are certainly not permissible. You could go on and on with examples like that.

Unless Blizzard explicitly made an exception like they do with certain things, for example whatever drives the G15 displays, I don't think that the argument they're making holds any water at all.

Everyone seems to have their own interpretation of what the TOS/AUP means, so I will just wait to hear specifically from a Bliz employee.

And even though the advisor at Magelo says the addon isn't doing the things that would make it against the TOS, is Warden going to know the difference?

If my account gets banned, we'll know for sure.

While I was trying to relax and read my book late last night, that Warden thing popped into my head. Gotta admit that thing scares me. Feels like the CIA or FBI is peering in my damn window. /shudder

Hi guys, I am Jelan from Magelo and I wanted to let you know that i just posted on our forum a response to Silenia request in order to clarify things regarding the EULA.

I don't want to double post so I will let you read it there and I will be glad to spend some times here to answer questions if you have some.

I just wanted to answer latest Mazzlefizz post regarding auto-leveling or bot programs. The key thing about those programs regarding the EULA is that they alter your game play, "the gaming experience" since they automate stuff. Reading the memory is just fine, it's a common thing to do on a computer, your anti virus does it all the time. As i pointed out in my reply to Silenia, Magelo Sync does not modify or enhance your game play in anyway and we dont data mine.

Thanks for your time and I hope you feel safer about Magelo.

Jelan, thanks for coming over here, and a huge thanks for being patient with me since I'm the one who brought all this up in the first place. I feel bad all the way around, but I think someone sooner or later would of brought all this up anyway :(

Don't worry Silenia, It's something we had to face sooner or later. By the way, our client "Magelo Sync" is not different from an EULA perspective than wowhead client which is widely used by the community and kinda endorced by the game already.

untill blizz says this is ok to use ill stay away . but i have to see it looks like alot of time and work went in to this !! and i salute yo for that .



and im glad your staying around

if i recall correctly the wowhead clent uploads the data after you log out but i may be mistaken

Uploads what to where? What are you talking about?

the info that the wowhead client gathers

Hi Kardinalsin, the wowhead client has 2 sources of informations basically. The first one is the text dump their addon produce and the second one are the WDB files (WoW cache files) directly.

Further reading on this topic:
http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread....48545396&sid=1

In all fairness, and speaking for myself here, I don't see how the two relate...

The wowhead client is not run alongside of the game collecting data that is in memory and not otherwise available. It merely collects data that the game itself writes to disk and uploads it to the server to be parsed. I can go into my WDB folder and open up those files in Notepad or Wordpad and see all of the NPCs or Quests and Quest text, Items, etc, that my client has seen in game. Sure, not everything is translated, there are a lot of unknown characters, but I can see how wowhead could use that information to build its database, which then gets filled in properly by the addon's saved variables. Reading those files and using the model viewers is not against the TOS. In that thread you linked, only one person said that it was not allowed (and was later rebuffed by another poster), but the source that they gave had nothing to do with the topic of that thread - their source was about decoding GUIDs for the new combat log - which has been done and you can check out wowwiki.

Now, I'm no programmer, however, and perhaps the wowhead client does more than I think it does. But, again, I personally fail to see the relation. I'm not trying to start an argument, just trying to get facts straight and understand.

Have you and/or the Magelo team contacted Blizzard to ask if this is okay?

If I am not mistaken, the WoWHead client is meant to be run completely outside of WoW. In-game data is collected through a regular LUA addon (similar to what RPG-Outfitter would do). There is also the cache scanning which could be at the limit of the EULA, but since WoW is not running at that time there is not much Blizzard can do about it anyway.

From what I understand, Magelo Sync runs at the same time as WoW, which is the main concern I think. Whatever it does to collect data, from scanning RAM to parsing cache files, the question is will it match Blizzard definition of third-party app (which I think it does as per my previous posts) and could potentially trigger their defense (which it does not for now from Silenia experience)?

Did you get an official word from Blizz on the compatibility of the Magelo Sync with their EULA?

Thanks,

EDIT: whoops Seerah was quicker, so yes, basically the same thing :)

Jelan... you have no idea how much some of us enjoy Magelo. I'm sorry, but I feel like I can't stress that enough. However, we can go back and forth all day about this addon or that addon and how it may or may not be similar to Magelo (you don't have to convince me that your services are harmless) and whatnot. But the bottom line here that everyone wants to know is weather or not there has been or will be an official response to you from Blizzard stating that your services are ok for us to use.

I think people are going to keep asking you this until we can obtain some type of answer. Have you tried to contact Bliz to make sure what you're offering is not a bannable offense?