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Kaelten 07-03-05 09:46 PM

There isn't many littlejohn and Blizzard did put alot of faith in the community to come up with some awesome additions to the standard interface. They could have kept this strictly locked tight and we'd all be stuck with the basic interface from launch probably with less changes than there has been sof ar.

Bots can cause alot of problems, but I think that by removing certain abilities(ie tying tstuff to hardware events) then blizzard has taken alot of the ability for addons to be used in that fashion.

I think we could all name at least 10 things to ***** about the way that blizzard has done thing, but as someone who has played MMO's since UO, and MUDS before that I can honestly say that this is one of the most enjoyable games I've ever played. and the ability to make a mod and have thousands of other people enjoy it is incredible.

For me seeing someone say "great job man" is like getting a high, I enjoy it and making addons will keep in my wow much longer than my normal shelf life would allow.

Beladona 07-04-05 01:35 AM

having played MMORPG games myself for over 10 years, I have seen farming and extra-game revenue and the effects it has caused over time to a game. Bear in mind that the effect is gradual with just about every game, so the effects you see now are limited. It will get worse as time progresses if left unchecked. No game is immune to it, as few if any have an effetive means of preventing virtual farming for RL revenue. No matter what anyone think, my personal epxerience is that economy DOES suffer in various forms due to inflation and other issues.

The most promising of avenues I have heard of thus far involves actually ALLOWING online purchase of cash and items, but purely by the development company. Basically like Blizzard adding a site that allows you to buy gold and items directly from them. This would allow them control of economic changes more fluidly, while also generating additional income for themselves. Given the right price (lower than those of competitors) you could almost kill virtual sweatshops. I thought I read somewhere that SOE is planning to test this idea soon with EverQuest...

Here are some reading materials to look at regarding just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to this topic.



In many MMORPGs, the economy becomes unbalanced over time due to inflation and can reduce meaningful interaction between players of varying level (i.e., newbies versus more powerful players). This is primarily due to the gradual accumulation of wealth and power within the game. Some MMORPGs have addressed this with varying degrees of success. Asheron's Call, for example, uses a guild system where lower level characters swear allegiance to higher level players and generate additional experience points for them, the theory being that it is in the interest of higher level players to assist the lower players and thus increase the reward they receive. Ultima Online used to have items wear out gradually, so that there is a constant demand for crafting resources, but this need has lowered with additional items which supplement item durability over time. Many games will create items referred to as "money sinks" that might add to character customization, or give a small positive effect. Examples include houses, clothes, or collectibles.
MSnbc Column about virtual worlds, farming, and RL law issues

Decent summary about digital sweatshops

Brief background and possible racial issues concerning farming

US Companies are in on the farming problem too...

I have an article in a copy of CGM (Monthly magazine) that has a good 4 or so page writeup on virtual sweatshops today. It even outlines some real existing sweatshops in asia and the revenue they reportedly make. I will try to find a digital version of it, or at the least convert the actual pages to pdf for you to view...

This thread was originally meant to dicuss changes in the next patch that will disable the Auto-Travel mod. Discussion of farming and botting was an afterthought and possibly a hijack of this thread. For that I apologize to the original author and hope he does't mind if we continue this discussion. If necessary however, it may be possible and prudent to move to another thread dedicated to this topic, and then allow this thread to continue unmolested on the topic of Auto-Travel...

Also be aware that this is DISCUSSION. No one is right or wrong here. It is completely impossible to prove or disprove any of our lines of discussion, which is why everything said here is opinion. Respect the opinion every poster here, and do not seek to "disprove" them. State your own opinions as such, and allow others to make their own opinions based on the thoughts you provide. THAT is the spirit of discussion...

Kaelten 07-04-05 12:23 PM

hell, I don't mind bela, I'm all for creative thought in a logical format. I just don't like people saying "It is because it s and I also say so so there mutha, no STFU an go eat a twinkie" know what I mean?

this conversation on botting and inflation is at the core of the reasons why we are given for the upcoming chagnes.

it'll just have to see how it turns out.

Atrius 07-08-05 03:58 PM


Originally Posted by Kaelten
you mean I have to waste 15 mins of my time trying to dodge the damned fence on the road, instead of enjoying myself?

heh. Sorry, that gave me quite a good chuckle.

I'll have to say that one of my first mods I wrote was a patrol script. Followed by AvgXP. The patrol script was a movement script, taking advantage of the movement commands, allowing you to store waypoints and travel between the points using a bezier curves to approximate proper locations of turning to make it rounded, smooth, and intelligent. The reason? I'm a roleplayer, I stand around a lot. I didn't want to stand in one spot, so I made a script to patrol me back and forth between a few points to minimize my need to control my character.

My reasoning for that was entirely different than an autotravel mod. While I could of easily had it autotravel, I didn't. The reason why I used it was for the sake of being able to move and communicate, trade, etc, without having to continually be turning around when moving in a small space.

Shortly after the removal of getposition and unitfacing I scrapped the idea entirely because it just lost its flair, its accuracy. It wasn't fluid, it wasn't natural.

I'll agree with you in stating that the travel functions themselves are not being abused by botters. There isn't enough reliability in it for me to ever consider running anything unmanned.

However, I am going to go out and say that I agree with Blizzards position. Not that we really have a choice, its their game, and we choose to play their game how they make it. I rather enjoy their games and I will continue to enjoy it, regardless of what "bonus features" they remove. All of the UI modding in and of itself is a bonus, a priviledge we are granted to bring our interface above and beyond the standard scope they created, and give it our own feel to our own play style. I feel that a bot that is autotravelling for you, is doing nothing more than playing the game for you. While many will argue "its not playing the game because its just moving" well I'm sorry, but it is playing the game for you. The intent of the game is that your characters movement and interaction is driven by you. Aside from using a taxi service, all character movement is done by the user and is expected to be. We don't have a large mass of scripts out there that talk for us. When I talk to you, I expect you to talk back, not some automated script trying to formulate a response.

Blizzard bases their playstyle and gaming style on the expectations they have of the gamer during their play time. They have added many bonuses such as rested exp, and teleporters to make the lives for many more casual people easier, but the intent of the player to actually be in full control of the character almost 99% of the time. There were things that took more control out of the hands of the user. Formerly mind control effects were far more powerful than present day. Previously action buttons greyed out and all control and buttons became inoperable, you couldn't even open your bags, when your player was not in control. They've since changed this, putting more and more control into the hands of the player at any given time. I believe this is their intentions, and I believe they expect you to man the controls when you're playing the game. Different games have different playstyles and perhaps this style doesn't fit your needs, and if so there are plenty of possibilities out there.

Again, this is just my view, and you're subject to your own opinions. There really is little to discuss about the merits of the decision since it isn't our decision to make, and the gavel has fallen.

The utmost important thing we must realize is that we're all here to have fun and have a good time, there is always plenty to do, plenty to see, and there will always be different things for us to focus our attention on. (Shameless plug) If you don't think so, stop by the Feathermoon server, and experience a different world for yourself. Complete with Church services, player run pubs, fashion shows, dueling night, Stormwind University classes and expeditions, full roleplayed Molten Core and Onyxia raids, and more. There is much more to this world than the simple mechanics that Blizzard lays before us, and losing something like autotravel just may make you spend that extra minute to take a second and look around and see something you've never seen before.

Sorry for the novel.
Storyteller, Bard, and leader of the once BÍte Noire

Kaelten 07-08-05 08:25 PM

eh I can agree and understand with their stance too, but my hands still start to hurt after a while I have pre-carpeltunnel fo some form and it was just a nice convinance. the biggest thing I've seen as it being a great thing was that some disabled people used it to play where they couldn't have otherwise, or at least been VERY difficult.

Littlejohn 07-08-05 09:10 PM

One of my goals in the meta-game is to develop a "pizza mode" where I can play 99% of the game with a slice of pizza in my left hand. (I can usually rely on keeping my pinky finger clean too, so I suppose I mean "right hand + left pinky mode"...)

Anybody else have such ambitious goals? :)

Beladona 07-08-05 10:25 PM

you can do that now, albeit not as responsive... I know because I frequently play and eat :p

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