Payed for Addons
 

I'm curious as to how Zygor, Dugis, and other in-game quest "guides" are getting away with charging for their addons, i was a subscriber of Carb long ago and would be more than happy to have this addon go to payed subscription again (updated alot more than it is now, and new cool features were common :P) not to mention the fact that these guys do amazing work.

Anyway, just want to say thanks, and sorry yall got screwed with that addon policy.

P.S. I know that the addon policy is old now, so dont bother flaming me about it. I happened across an add for zygor and seen they are still charging for theirs and claim they are 100% inside of blizz policys. I just cant for the life of me figure out why.

If I recall correctly, they claim it's perfectly within Blizzard's policies to give out the client (or "guide viewer") for free and then charge for downloading content (the actual guide material) for said client.

However, the way I see it, that is against point one in Blizzard's UI Add-On Development Policy:

Own emphasis.

thats the way i seen it too, but they are there, and getting away with it.....

There is a giant confusion in copywrite law (and software patent law for that matter). Derivative works can merge with original creative content. Messy stuff from an IP atorney's point of view.

One really good way to visualize it is by looking into the battles over "idiot's guide" sort of "creative content" v. the software providers who wanted to force licensing prior to publication (authorized version sort of thing).

As long as proper TM notice is provided, Bliz will have a devil of a time stopping the sale of creative content related to their products. On the other hand, they can likely stop the use of any addon with their products for any or no reason whatsoever. One way the zygors of the world could ice their position would be to make their "content" readable and useful outside its use through an addon. Let a third party give away an addon that reads the otherwise useful material into the game world. Think of eBook readers v. the text files. They are produced and sold by different entities.

All this and much, much more said, Bliz is the industry standard for leading with their face and taking actions which courts have slapped them for latter. They seem happy to violate obvious fair use or even privacy laws and just pay for it later in court. They are the last company I would taunt. Remember what they did in the Diablo days.

Interesting stuff. Do some poking on a wiki and check out uspto.gov and epo.org. I will look for some cites to Bliz's actions in the past.

Disclaimer: I am a licensed IP attorney. I am not acting as anyone's attorney, representative or agent on this board. I am simply musing based on 30 years in the field. Everything I write here could be dead wrong. Do your own research and hire an attorney if necessary. I love the law.

Copyright. ;)

But yeah, that reasoning does make sense.

Really? All that useful info and you proof read him? Shameful :(

Now now, I would've left it well enough alone if he hadn't claimed to be (yes, claimed; I haven't seen any proof of the contrary and so choose not to believe what the internet tells me) an attourney. An attourney that misspells "copyright", no less.

So sue me. :P

Moron
 

How fast do you type Jigain? When you cap on a guy for a typo and totally ignore the content of the post you re-enforce (check that spelling) the notion that people working on add-ons are idiots.

Do your best to poke a hole in my content. 30 years in the game tells me can't.

Now a question for you Jigain, what did Bliz do that put them at the top of my "do not taunt" list? Well, to make it easier for you I could write "don't taunt," or maybe "DoN't tAunT mAn;))"

Reply to content with content or go back to your bedroom and login.

Hey - don't make me go link the forum rules/code of conduct.

What did I post that was a violation?

Her comment wasn't directed solely at you. It was a general reminder that we expect people to behave and that this thread is pushing it. What she's referring to, specifically, is:

from our Site Rules.

Have you ever had someone slander your career? Question whether you are a fraud?

Trolls here, and elsewhere admittedly, slip by everyday by simply popping in with a "can't prove a negative" sort of attack.

I am disturbed that a paid supporter forum can't be filled with content.

"Why do you bother" is my wife's question. My answer was that I thought the people (kids to me by age) here are brilliant and offer great things. WoW is a better place because of them.

Next thing I know, someone --> without any effort what-so-ever to respond to content and ideas <-- slanders my guts out. No response from the moderators.

That was the short reply.

========

I once sat in a Berkeley Home-Brew Computer Club meeting. One night, Waz was slumped in the second row, Bill was ranting about IP and Steve was building friendships in the crowd. I was inspired. I finished my Ph.D. and then went to law school and pounded away on IP. Bill had a point, Steve got it, Waz was - gone somewhere.

I see the same potential in the people, again, kids to me now, around WoW. These people, you included, are the champions of the next generation. I would love to do something, anything, to see it all again.

Instead - I get slandered and run off by moderators (two different acts).

So far, no responses to the content of my post.

We appreciate your feedback.

We put a lot of thought into Carbonite. One of the owners is a businessman and went to law school. We also hired a lawyer when starting the company. None of us are young. Haavok and I are both 43. I've been in the software business for 20 years and the other two longer than that. Blizzard did things for various reasons and so did we. Life is complicated and many of those complications won't be discussed in a public forum.

First of all, my intention was not to offend - if my reply came across as such, I do apologize.

Second, I'm sure you would agree that some manner of scepticism is required when using an information source (the internet) that can be accessed and edited by anyone. For example, if I claimed myself to be the king of Monaco, that wouldn't necessarily make it true and I doubt a whole lot of people would believe me. I didn't mean to say you aren't an attourney; I was merely stating that not everything claimed on the internet should be taken at face value. Maybe you are an attourney, maybe you are not - it is of little to no relevance to the discussion.

Thirdly, and once again with no intention to offend - if you take scepticism regarding information you offer at face value this hard, maybe it's time to back away from the computer slowly and think about where you're picking an argument over something so silly and - I dare say - justified.

And fourth as well as last, as you may notice from my first reply to you, I do agree that your reasoning is sound. I can't offer any more insight into your reasoning than that - I am not Blizzard, and I am not a lawyer. All I can say is that it makes sense. If you require more than that, this community might be ill equipped to respond properly.

Zygor's guide engine is a general purpose addon that reads and interprets in-game guide text files. That's the addon. There are no additional features of the addon itself that anybody pays for. What you pay for are the text files - the guide content, same as a book. if you take the trouble to learn the simple syntax, you can write your own guides, and I have.

By way of analogy, there are several different addons that will play mp3's and other music for you while you enjoy the game. You can use them to listen to Bruce Springsteen and Lady Gaga while you do ICC10. That does not mean that under Blizzard's rules, Bruce and Stefani are required to give away their albums. The music is auxiliary content, and so are Zygor's guide files.

:eek:

My head hurts after reading this post...

The question is (and I think the original intent of the thread) can the Carbonite authors find a way to charge for their content while keeping the addon free. This may be something that the authors don't have time to consider at the present time. It would be interesting to see if it can be done though. The idea for recurring donations through paypal is a real possibility because the addon is free still but people can choose to donate on a recurring basis. This sounds like a good option to allow for compensation of the authors for their continual hard work.

I've donated and I plan on donating every three months or so as long as the addon is current. I love Carbonite. Sure, I'd like to see some things changed, but I figure if I donate, maybe that'll make it more likely that my suggestions might be considered. If not, I'll keep using it as it is. I agree with Bliz's policy, though. I think it's meant to keep people who can afford to pay from having an unfair advantage in game. Hopefully, donation is working for the Carbonite team. I know the economy sucks right now, and some people are just greedy little punks, but I'd hope those of us who are able to toss a few bucks their way now and then continue to do so. I'd hate to see this addon go away.

It's illegal to buy controlled substances in the US too, but people do it all the time. Doesn't make it right, it's just how it is and how it's been since the beginning of civilization. I used to support Carbonite Addon by paying for it and, until their updates became further and further from patch release, I donated to it's development.

How you gonna stop me from giving some mo-fo some cash'ola?? It's MY cash!


PS: Thanks for the updates!

That's not really relevant, since Blizzard can (and frequently does) alter WoW code in order to prevent "bad" addons from working. I could accept the analogy, but only if the US government could at will alter the constitution and thus make controlled substances have no effect on people while within the borders of the US. Which would be pretty darn cool. ;)

So pushing the subject back to the original post...


They charge for their time. Don't quote me the "charge for services related to the add-on" bit because -time- can be billed as anything.

Also, they can't require a file to have a static location. Zygors don't they move it once every 15 minutes.

Alright, think of it like this:

Michelangelo was given the opportunity to paint a beautiful mural in the Sistine Chapel. He obviously did a wonderful job! But, he wasn't pleased overall for political reasons. Never the less, he couldn't just go inside the Sistine Chapel and remove the murals simply because he was the one that painted them, because those murals belong to the Catholic Church.. not him. He also gained no rights, nor would any modern artist, for monetary gain above and beyond what he had already been paid. When we see pictures of the Sistine Chapel, we see, among other artists, Michelangelo's work. We know it was his talent that produced the beautiful images and he is given credit for them. But "credit" is all he ever received above and beyond his original payment.

Blizzard feels similarly about it's game. Think of World of Warcraft like the Sistine Chapel and Blizzard as The Catholic Church. Michelangelo represents not only addon developers, but game developers as well. Game developers working for Blizzard know full well that anything they produce is owned by Blizzard. They may receive credit for their work, but they'll only receive a paycheck and, if they're lucky, a raise.

Addon developers are 'agreeing' to work for free and, if they're lucky, Blizzard will give them added compensation for their work. They are not, however, entitled to do so. Many addon developers continue to believe that a copyright of their work allows them to "own" the physical code. This is not the case. They own "credit for the artistic format" and that is simply all.

Michelangelo's artistic genius is known around the world and his work on the Sistine Chapel is, no doubt, the paramount cause of his belated success. No one developing mods has the right to 'demand' compensation for something that was previously stated as being voluntary (TOS). I urge addon users to DONATE! But, a donation is not a payment. The developers of this addon and others have every right to place it's success on their resumes, but they have zero right to sell it.

Remember... if the Sistine Chapel fell to the ground (God forbid - cross on chest) due to an earthquake, the paintings would be gone as well, because they are literally 'part of' the chapel. We can have pictures, but compared to addon development, it's like the pictures of Carbonite used on their page on this site.. they're just pictures. They don't do anything. If you take the addon away from World of Warcraft, the addon does nothing. It is, nothing, but a very VERY small piece of a MUCH bigger design the addon developers had little or nothing to do with.


PS: Copyright laws, along with Mickey Mouse, can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. I've payed for and donated to this addon's development in the past and may continue in the future, but not because I feel they're entitled to the money. It's because I feel they deserve 'extra' compensation as an expression of my appreciation only.

Thanks!

By that logic, then WoW is nothing without the OS, C, Lua and other libraries it uses. The OS depends on the BIOS, which depends on the hardware (CPU micro code :eek:), which does nothing without the electricity from the electric company.

Blizzard does not own addon code just like Microsoft and Apple do not own Blizzard's code and the BIOS manufacturers do not own the OS code. Code depending on or using other code does not imply ownership.

Name one. I have yet to hear of a single author get compensated after Blizz ripped off their addon an added it as a "new feature" (Carb/QH, tradeskill addons, etc). Authors are the free labor to make the game "better" and when they do something that Blizz likes they just pat 'em on the head, say "good job" and release it later "as their own".

"Compensation". That actually made me laugh.

I agree with your sentiment here, indeed. I feel any authors of works that become part of the game should, at the very least, be given credit in related patch notes or be compensated by a little free game time.