TBC UI Changes

[Lichbane]

Originally Posted by yutt Most of the healers in support of this change have a confused sense of ethics and aren't aware on how heavily the rest of their healers have to work to support their stubborness. Please don't let a handful of elitist masochists destroy the game for the rest of us healers.

I for one will be abandoning my healing position in raids. As a druid, I have that luxury. I'm sorry for the priests and other cleansing classes who will face the backlash as a result of the short-sightedness of Blizzard and their elitist fanbois. But I'm the bear who's busy tanking with the rest of the warriors and DPS classes.

[Krimson]

So far I've read a whole lot of negative responses to the proposed changes by Blizzard. I've heard a small handful of people defend Blizz's position and maintain a positive view that "things will all work out". I do generally believe the latter - Blizz has a multi-million dollar business at stake here, if this receives a huge backlash and people start canceling accounts, they'll change their tune real fast. But it's in Blizz's best financial interest to resolve this situation before it ever gets to that point, so we'll see them make concessions and/or we'll see mod writers work with Blizz to minimize the impact. That's all great.

But with that all said, why the H*LL hasn't Blizz put some sort of common voting/polling system in place ot ask players what they think about these things before they announe these huge sweeping changes? Ask players simple yes/no voting questions about things like whether they think the mods being affected by these changes enhance or detract from gameplay and see what the responses are. If 80% of players say these mods enhance gameplay and make it more fun/enjoyable to play their game, then the course of action is obvious.

I canceled my WoW subscription about six months ago. I just got burned out. While I was playing out my last few days of my subscription, I wasn't interested in grinding since I was canceled anyway so I started looking at mods. It was the discovery of several mods which enhanced aspects of gameplay I didn't really enjoy that sucked me back in. I know from reading forums like these that I'm not alone in this regard. I wish Blizz would stop taking shots at some of these great mods in their attempt to "fix" the balance of their world. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't see a whole lot of people jumping up and down saying things like Squishy, Emergency Monitor, ClickHeal, etc are ruining the game for everyone. Bots ruin the game for everyone - go get them Blizz and leave us legitimate players who enjoy using mods alone.

For the record, I am a casual player, I enjoy WoW because it's fun but I still take pride in what I do and put in the effort to be a top healer. When it stops being fun, I'll stop playing. And so far this is shaping up to be a change in that direction. Blizz is taking out aspects of the game I consider fun (thanks to the mods that make them so) and replacing them (or leaving a gap) with things I consider not fun (which is why I quit the first time).

And for those of you elitists out there who say "I don't use mods, mods are a crutch, L2P and healers should just be staring at bars all day", I think Blizz should just make you guys your own server type like RP or PVP called "Elitists" where all mod functionality is disabled and you get to play WoW exactly the way Blizz builds it to be, no bells or whistles added. You can all transfer to that server and enjoy yourselves, more power to you.

[sid67]

I think Blizz should just make you guys your own server type like RP or PVP called "Elitists" where all mod functionality is disabled and you get to play WoW exactly the way Blizz builds it to be, no bells or whistles added. You can all transfer to that server and enjoy yourselves, more power to you.

That's a good idea. And they should make death cost you experience on that server. With all the dying that will happen without the UI enhancements, none of the would get past level 20.

[shouryuu]

A voting system would simply never work, for the simple reason that players would always vote for things that are at their advantage. If Blizzard had submitted this change to a vote, sure, 90% of the voters would have said no. Does that mean anything? Not at all. Everyone wants a free mount, if Blizzard were to vote on that, 95% of everyone would answer "I want a free mount", does that mean that we *should* have free mounts? No. Things might not seem broken, because they are in our favor. Who has ever whined because an encounter was too easy? Really, who has ever cried, and yelled, and sobbed, because decursive made Lucifron an easier fight? No one.

Democracy isn't imposing the will of the majority. If that were so, we'd have no taxes for instance. Who *wants* to pay their taxes? Who runs around saying, "Boy oh boy oh boy I'm paying my taxes tomorrow! Woooohooo!!”? No one does. Because everyone hates paying taxes. But we need taxes. We need taxes to maintain roads, highways, streets, public housing, welfare, healthcare and so forth. Like Rousseau said, sometimes freedom is forced upon you.

The same applies to WoW. Freedom is forced upon you. As I said in my earlier post, these changes allow you to be free. No one is making decisions for you. Sure it's harder this way, but that's how it is. This whole game is about trial and error. This whole game is about learning through experience. We all know theorycraft doesn't always work. It's nice and neat and it *helps*, it's even needed sometimes, I agree, but it doesn't solve all your problems. The best way to understand one's class, one's role, and the mechanics of this game is by getting behind that screen and playing this great game.

Yes, to some extend, some people will have to "learn to play". I'm not saying everyone who uses decision making mods is a retard and doesn't know anything about this game. I'm saying that anyone who uses such mods, and knows exactly what they are doing, and why they are doing it; in other words, anyone who would make almost the exact same decisions the mods did had he not installed them, is a good player. He'd be using them not because they'd do things he couldn't, he'd be using them because they'd be optimizing actions he was already able to perform. Anyone else, needs to "learn to play".

Now don't run around branding me an "elitist", that's simply too easy. It's not because I don't share your opinion that I should be branded with some retarded term. I'm a casual player. I don't even play the game anymore. I leveled my priest is 24 days, he's the only 60 I have, and have basically very good pre-MC gear, nothing more. I've always been considered a good player, be it for my "skills" or my personality, and yes, I am proud to voice so. I still have a *lot* to learn about my class, about my style of play and many other things, and I welcome anyone, or anything, that allows me to uncover such knowledge; and that is why I welcome these changes.

I don't want to seem patronizing. I'm not better than anyone. Maybe I know my class better than some people; maybe how I see the priest class is completely erroneous and wrong, I don't believe there's a unique way to play one class. But I do believe that in order to understand these changes, in order to justify the act of saying "This won't make WoW fun anymore", you have to define what makes it fun. And to me, what makes it fun is simply choice. The quasi-infinite possibilities this game has to offer. I can chose to walk to Org if I wish to; it isn't as quick as flying there, but that doesn't make it any worst. Sure, if I need to be in org real fast, then flying is better, but like everything in WoW, it depends on the circumstances. Nothing is absolute in WoW. That's why I don't like decision making mods; they propose a template of "absolute" healing or decursing. With these mods, not only are people not understanding what they are doing right, but they aren't understanding what they are doing wrong, and that is something terrible to my eyes.

[Krimson]

Democracy isn't imposing the will of the majority. If that were so, we'd have no taxes for instance. Who *wants* to pay their taxes?

Good point, and an interesting example. I have no choice when it comes to paying taxes. I DO have a choice when it comes to playing WoW. If taxes are no longer fun, I still gotta pay 'em. By comparison, when WoW is no longer fun, I can (and will) choose to stop playing. I like WoW, I'd like to continue playing, so I will push for Blizz to make changes that maintain the aspects of WoW that I consider fun.

Everyone wants a free mount, if Blizzard were to vote on that, 95% of everyone would answer "I want a free mount"

I like to give Blizz SOME credit. I expect they have intelligent people who can come up with relevant questions to issues other than whether or not we all want a free mount. They should ask - do you think decursive is helpful or detrimental to gameplay? There are people on both sides of the spectrum, and I think Blizzard should be making more informed decisions than their designers debating in a board room somewhere. They should have direct player feedback into these decisions, and as it is all they have for that feedback are a bunch of boards where they have to dig and hunt for the gems of useful input. A direct polling system (EQ had this, they'd ask you when you logged in) to relevent issues could provide some assistance in their decision-making process.

That's why I don't like decision making mods; they propose a template of "absolute" healing or decursing. With these mods, not only are people not understanding what they are doing right, but they aren't understanding what they are doing wrong, and that is something terrible to my eyes.

I absolutely agree with you. And see the thing is, the people who ARE retards and use mods to make up for it, it's obvious. And guess what? They don't last long and stand out for what they are. People like you and me who take pride in our class and use mods to eliminate the undesirable/monotonous aspects of the game so that we enjoy it more, we stand out for who we are and people appreciate playing with us. See, mods don't change the quality of the player. That's why Blizz lets them exist - they generally don't give people unfair advantages, they just help us (the players) fix deficiencies in the default UI and enhance our game experience, customizing it to how we like to play. Blizz is specifically targetting certain mods with these changes (just like they did with the movement-bind mods a few patches ago) that many of us enjoy, and this just makes many of us frustrated with Blizz.

We're not asking for free mounts, freedom from taxes or anything extreme like that. We know there are bots out there and we know there are retards out there. Blizz needs to go get the bots. The player community can figure out the retards from the smart people themselves. Blizz just needs to leave these mods alone and let us enjoy them when they aren't considered detrimental to the gaming experience by the majority of players - these mods make THEIR game more fun to play and they're being written for FREE by the community. Yep - Blizz gets FREE help making their game more fun, which in turn sells more subscriptions (Blizz has so far gotten an extra six months outta me that they wouldn't have had if not for mod writers). They like to thank that free help by constantly chaffing against it and reducing functionality available to them. There are other ways to fix problems, they need to stop taking the easy road by disabling mod functionality (a very broad and destructive brush) and instead work on finding other solutions to the problems they are trying to solve.

[illepic]

I have read literally hundreds of replies to this issue on these forums, my guild forums (shameless plug), the official WoW forums and on random blogs and message board strewn throughout the seedy underbelly of the internet.

Taken as whole, a clear theme emerges from this vast array of responses. Allow me to summarize some trends that I have noticed:

1) Those that are pro-UI change are:

A) Not a healing class
B) A healing class that feels inherently guilty for using something to help them heal/cleanse, somehow equating that to "cheating"
C) Players that do not understand that the API was opened up for us to use ON PURPOSE by Blizzard, to use in any way it allows us to. Many seem to feel that Decursive or Emergency Monitors are somehow illegal hacks of the game and have "just not been caught yet."
D) Fearful/unskilled of technology and are generally non-tech-savvy (someone mentioned the great percentage of raiders that cannot handle a zip file...that describes about half my raid)
E) People that presume spamming 3 buttons is somehow more skillful than using a mod to complete the task in 1.

2) Those that are anti/skeptical/dissappointed/saddened by these changes are

A) People with a very clear understanding of the WoW API, ie mod authors, highly tech savvy players
B) Hybrid healing classes
C) People that have only ever had mods to help them, equating them to essentially "built in" to WoW. Honestly, how many people have been around long enough to raid MC or BWL without CTRAID?
D) People that understand that the expansion represents a DECREASE in functionality over what is currently offered.

I was such a huge fan of WoW because it rewarded either of TWO types of inherent gaming skill:
1) Fast button mashing, lightening fast reaction time and the ability to track dozens of variables simultaneously
2) People who worked hard enough, and were smart enough, to code/utilize tools that allowed them the above skills with less manual effort, but MORE brain effort.

As you probably guessed, this all boils down to a "Work smarter not harder" mentality with me. My boss would not reward me for hand typing out 100 letters to our clients, one at a time. I'd probably get fired for the amount of time it would take me to do that. He would never come down to my office and say "Hey, because you manually typed all that and took longer doing it, you, sir, are a skilled employee." Instead, I have "mail merge" that allows me to customize 100 letters in a split second and send them out. I am rewarded for BEING TECH SAVVY and USING TOOLS to aid me in doing my job better.

This purist attitude that "real men whack-a-mole heal/cleanse" is a crutch for those that don't understand that UI customization is encouraged in WoW. When I, a paladin, outheals (with lowest overheal) most of my priests and druids in a raid, I cannot help but feel disappointment that they are not playing their classes to their full capacity.

Sorry if this post got a little troll-y. Overall, I'm very impressed with the maturity and intelligence of this forum thread! Keep it up!

[Tuller]

People who worked hard enough, and were smart enough, to code/utilize tools that allowed them the above skills with less manual effort, but MORE brain effort.

I'll strawman this by saying, "Well you must think bots are perfectly fine, then." I don't expect you to agree with that opinion, and that's where you draw the line between the player actively playing the game, and a computer doing it for him or her.

I draw the line at when the computer actively decides who to target and what to cast. Automating that part of the game removes the player from doing any real strategic thinking in a raid (Who needs to have a curse right now? Do I remove this curse, or this poison effect first?). To say that Decursive should exist because removing curses is a boring job doesn't really solve the problem, now does it? Sure, I'm pressing less keys, but now I'm simply pressing one key over and over without any thought. It does not seem all that fun to me. Why not just make removing curses a more fun mechanic, instead?

[illepic]

Originally Posted by Tuller I'll strawman this by saying, "Well you must think bots are perfectly fine, then." I don't expect you to agree with that opinion, and that's where you draw the line between the player actively playing the game, and a computer doing it for him or her. I draw the line at when the computer actively decides who to target and what to cast. Automating that part of the game removes the player from doing any real strategic thinking in a raid (Who needs to have a curse right now? Do I remove this curse, or this poison effect first?). To say that Decursive should exist because removing curses is a boring job doesn't really solve the problem, now does it? Sure, I'm pressing less keys, but now I'm simply pressing one key over and over without any thought. It does not seem all that fun to me. Why not just make removing curses a more fun mechanic, instead?

Though I think you're baiting a little with the bot logic up top your final point of "Why not just make removing curses a more fun mechanic, instead" is truely the right direction I think we're all hoping, nay PRAYING, for Blizzard to consider. Make it fun in ANY way and I'll be the first to wave goodbye to Decursive.

As to "curing" being a skill, we all basically cure by class priority. Set that in Decursive and spam that button. There's really no difference in spamming mouse clicks centimeters from each other (if you drag classes out on your screen like i do) or pounding the "cleanse" key on the keyboard. Skill in this game falls into situations like "recognizing a fake heal early in a duel with a shammy in order to save your repentance for later in the fight" and NOT "i'll manually target myself with my mouse and hit my cleanse key because that is what skilled players do."

You mention that using Decursive "does not seem all that fun to" you. What decursive allows is a relegation of the tedium of cleansing to the back, while allowing you to actually have fun doing other things like healing, watching the raid, moving, anticipating, bandaging, BoP'ing (in my case), etc. I think that is the crux of most pro-Decursive arguments: "Curing is a broken mechanic of the game and the community fixed it."

Makes me wonder how many players Decursive kept from going insane, effectively extending their WoW careers. Both interests won: Blizz keeps a paying customer longer and paying customer enjoys playing longer. Just check Krimson's post a few up for a testimonial. I have to agree with him. If I had to do Chromagg manually...oh...oh god...no...oh god no...

But it all boils down to the fact that I will get over it and I have faith that Blizz will rework this aspect of the game with 25 man encounters. I do think they should have included a very descriptive write up of the changes to curing encounters alongside the "all your auto target are belong to us" blue post.

[shouryuu]

Originally Posted by illepic 1) Those that are pro-UI change are: A) Not a healing class B) A healing class that feels inherently guilty for using something to help them heal/cleanse, somehow equating that to "cheating" C) Players that do not understand that the API was opened up for us to use ON PURPOSE by Blizzard, to use in any way it allows us to. Many seem to feel that Decursive or Emergency Monitors are somehow illegal hacks of the game and have "just not been caught yet." D) Fearful/unskilled of technology and are generally non-tech-savvy (someone mentioned the great percentage of raiders that cannot handle a zip file...that describes about half my raid) E) People that presume spamming 3 buttons is somehow more skillful than using a mod to complete the task in 1.

There. I entirely disagree..
I am :

A) A healing class, a Priest even.
B) I don't feel guilty when I use decision making mods. I use them, have used them, and would have used them. If a raid's success depends on me decursing properly, then I'm going to do everything I can, even use mods, to optimize the process. Not because I want purple loot, but because 39 other players are depending on me to do so.
C) I do understand why Blizzard opened up the API. They did so because they hoped it would improve everyone's game play. It would allows every user to have a setting which fits their game play. However, they did so in the hope that these addons *did not provide an unfair advantage over users using the stock UI*. Yes, *THAT* was the condition. Now I DARE you to explain to me how someone using decursive didn't have an unfair advantage over someone using the stock UI.
D) I'm no tech-savy, but I've written mods. Sure they're ugly. The coding will make most coders eyes bleed, but they work, and I wrote them myself. I got on these forums hardly knowing how to code, I read every documentation I could find, tried to answer everything myself, asked for helped when I needed it, and managed to learn how to write mods. Yes I am damn proud of it, and yes it angers me when someone says I'm "computer-retarded" :P That doesn't make me the king of UI, that just makes me a guy with basic understanding of the WoW API.
E) I presume that taking three right decisions is more skilfull than not taking a single one, be it a wrong one, or a right one.

What I've tried to make clear in my other posts, is that what makes WoW fun, are two things:
1) Choice
2) Learning through experience.

Decision making mods, killed both of these in my eyes. It's an unpopular change, but part of being chief, is making unpopular decisions.
And anyone who says "But there tons of other ways to do what they want to do!", I'd really want to hear a few.
I would, like anyone else, prefer to keep my UI, my decursive, my decision making mods. It's makes the game easier, and to a certain level, more enjoyable. I'm not welcoming these changes, I'm accepting them as something good but not better, as something new. That's what we're looking for in TBC, right?

[illepic]

Do understand that my lists were what I'd observed in countless posts around the intarrweb. Rather than "if you like the changes you must be ...", think "those that I've seen that are pro-change have the following attributes..."

Congratulations, you've broken the mold. You are both thoughtful and analytical, able to see through the BS and emotion.

I'm still not backing down from my assertion that WoW was designed to reward two separate definitions of skill:

1) button-spamming-reaction skill

and/or

2) skilled and thoughtful tool developers

Discuss!