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10-07-08, 12:22 PM   #21
Taffu
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Originally Posted by richerich View Post
Although, i can agree that they aint hosting the author's name anywhere is bad, but what can you do to stop it, except to sue them?
You can tell them to stop carrying your AddOns. I requested the same when they were claiming to host SLDataText, and it was removed from their list fairly quickly, and unlike Phanx I managed to get a response.

It was actually more of an inquiry, asking why I wanted it removed. I explained to them they are circumventing the distribution rights of the sites they're pulling the AddOns from as well as negatively impacting site traffic to the original hosting site(s). They're follow up was a lame duck "Oh, we tried to talk to Zam Network, but they wouldn't respond".

Just because they "try" doesn't mean they automatically have the right to distribute the AddOns without consent. For some of the larger, more popular AddOn Authors...removal from WoWMatrix could very well cripple the use of the program all together. What's the point of using it if you have to manually update all the dominant AddOns you use anyway?

For me, it was more my disgust with avoid good hosting sites like WoWI. At one point WoWMatrix asked me "Would you prefer your users not have up to date versions of your AddOn?", which came off as a rather rude way of putting it. I simply responded with "Nothing is stopping them from downloading the most recent version from WoWI except their own lazy inability to visit the site that hosts the AddOn, and therefore deserves the traffic".
 
10-07-08, 01:11 PM   #22
Carz
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i agree im a addon make myself and thats why i dont even bother put them up on any site im gunna put on one thsi site b/c i love this site but im gunna wait till they move to there new name
 
10-08-08, 08:47 AM   #23
Cirk
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I posted the following over on Blizz's UI and Macros forum, in Recompense's thread on pretty much the same topic.

Thought I'd also post it here too, since I'd love to see some more discussion on possible solutions to the whole issue.

I'll stay away from the author's copyright thing - not qualified to discuss it :) I'll also not comment on the legalities of download manager's, hosting site legal "rights", etc.

Lets consider our hosting sites for a minute though. The sites that host our addons (WoWI, Curse, etc.) pay for the bandwidth required to provide this feature through advertising, donations, premium accounts, etc., where I'd expect advertising revenue to be the primary source of income.

Now lets assume that a download manager comes along that scrapes data from these hosting sites (to get the version, etc. that it needs) and provides directly a download link to the content on those sites, and that everyone and their dog starts using this amazingly useful feature. Well, the big danger is that the hosting sites can say goodbye to their advertising revenue ("no one visits your site and sees our adverts, so we won't pay you to show them anymore").

So now, who is going to pay for the hosting and bandwith? The authors and premium subscribers? The site providers? Somehow I don't think that'll happen, and in the worst case the sites may even close down, which would be a Bad Thing(tm). I'd guess that legally it would probably be an Even Worse Bad Thing(tm) if the download manager generates revenue for its own site (advertising or otherwise) while contributing to the demise of the very sites it pulls its data from, but I digress.

So, what would I like to see from a download manager that performs the functionality that WoWMatrix provides?
- Collaboration with the websites it links to, provide advertising sharing, etc. (i.e, move from being parasitic to symbiotic). As a quick measure, at least have a statement of "hosted by <nameandlinktohostingsite>" on every link.
- Author and feedback/forum links (perhaps for the author's own website, or their preferred forums, etc.).

If something like this doesn't happen and non-hosting download managers become the defacto standard, we are going to see sites either start closing down (eek), or stop providing persistent links to the addons (e.g., they'd start using login and session based temporary links) simply to "break" the non-revenue generating download managers.

So, how about it you WoWMatrix supporters? How about suggesting to WoWMatrix (and other non-host site download managers) that its important to the whole community to not be parasitic in nature, and to instead become a friend, symbiot, contributor, supporter, etc. (pick your own word ;).
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10-08-08, 04:57 PM   #24
Phanx
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Originally Posted by richerich View Post
That is actually a reason why its good, since then we get always-up-to-date addons, since they probably don't have time to download every single update in a time and let's the authors update inconsistently of the client.
It doesn't matter if you think it's "good". The fact remains, it is illegal.

Furthermore, you vastly overestimate how long it takes to keep addons updated without a program to do it for you. Find the addon you use on WoWInterface. Click "Add to Favorites". Now, when there's an update, you'll get an email message with a link to click to directly download the file. It takes all of 10-30 seconds (depending on your connection and your proficiency with your decompression software) to unzip the archive into your addons folder. What addons do you use that are updated so frequently that having to click a link and unzip a file manually are such overwhelming tasks? I use about 150 addons, plus about 100 more libraries, and have never seen this as a problem.

Also, you don't need to update. Update if the addon breaks, yes. Update if the addon has a cool new feature, yes. But you don't need to update every day just for the sake of updating.

And as far as i know, there is no other updater that still works like this. WAU could only update ace-addons, WoWUI can only update what the authors are hosting here, Curse can only provide with what authors are updating on their sites and so on...
You don't know very far then. There are several other updaters that can pull addons from multiple sites. While they do leech bandwidth from WoWI and other sites, they differ from WoWMatrix in an important way -- they don't make it look like they are hosting the addons themselves. The user must input each addon and which site it's hosted on in order for these updaters to work. Significantly, this does not violate my copyright.

WoWMatrix collects every of those sites and that's what's makes it a good way, even tho they are "taking" the copyrights... I don't think there will come a similar updater like this that DOESN'T break any rules, so atm, this is still the best...
So... it's okay to break the law, just to save yourself a few minutes? Try telling that to the next cop who pulls you over for breaking the speed limit. I'm sure he'll be convinced.
 
10-08-08, 06:10 PM   #25
Dreadlorde
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Sorry for going off topic, but does this mean JWoWUpdater is done for?
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10-08-08, 06:13 PM   #26
Tekkub
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The issue with WM is less that it steals bandwidth, and more that it steals bandwidth AND turns ad revenue at the same time. I wouldn't fear too much for the freebie updaters.
 
10-09-08, 04:10 AM   #27
Tristanian
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I'm pretty tired debating this topic over @ WoWAce, seems people don't seem to grasp some very basic concepts, such as the right of an author to be able to control where/how his work is been distributed. I think I'll just throw the towel there and embrace the motto: "If you want to control it, then don't release it !".

This does not only apply to WM but other updaters as well, at the very least their authors don't do it for the cash, so I can understand them, despite not agreeing to their methods. The rest is as Tek stated.
 
10-09-08, 11:18 PM   #28
vpr
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Upon logging into Wowmatrix today, it advised me that PhanxChat needed updated.

I thought you've requested that they be removed?
 
10-09-08, 11:32 PM   #29
aross
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Exclamation Tid bit

Well the wowmatrix ppl must be reading in here bc i wanted to see what all the fuse was about and well they have made a update that displays the authors now... still not were they get the adddons but the authors are posted on there now
 
10-10-08, 12:04 AM   #30
VincentSDSH
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So far they've ignored repeated requests to remove my mods from the site/service.
 
10-10-08, 01:30 AM   #31
Meldas
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Sorry if this sounds a little bit harsh but this is my standpoint as a WoW Addons User:

WoWMatrix is currently the only working Addon Updater for a Mac. For me this is an absolutely free application and it is essential. I challenge you to point me to a Mac application which does the same. There are NO other updaters of this kind - at least I haven't found them after weeks of searching and hours of trying out.

I'm using less than 70 Addons but there were times I got more than 10 updates every day. Locating them (they aren't all on the same Addon site), downloading them and unzipping them costs a tremendous amount of time. It costs that much time that I, as a user, value the benefits of WoWMatrix more than any benefits from any single WoW addon.

And yes, I have to update every day. This is my user (or customer) feedback. Believe it or ignore it.

If you want to remove your addons from the WoWMatrix list, please go ahead (well, you have the right to do so). However, for me this means I'm not going to use your addon any longer. You want me to join your crusade against a free, helpful application? Hm, let me think about this for a moment ... well, no and good luck!

Sure I accept the rights of you as an author (I'm a professional programmer myself - I know what I'm talking about). However, I also know that as soon as I put something as 'free to use' into the internet I'm also loosing the control over this. There are ways to fight for your right, like lawyers, but they are expensive. There are other ways like a boycott as you suggest (this is some form of vigilantism) but don't expect that everybody joins your way with a 'Huzzah!", especially if this is linked with drawbacks for them.

Btw, I also agree to that what Cirk said. But the question is: How to achieve this?
 
10-10-08, 02:06 AM   #32
Tristanian
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Some part of me, sometimes wishes that God would rain fire one day on all automatic updaters out there, so we can go back to how things used to be, back when you didn't need to use 1340829348236234 addons to have a "cool" UI, when in reality you weren't using half of them, half the time.

While updaters have been a convenience, ultimately they've made a good deal of users demanding, obnoxious, condescending and with actually no regards to anything else than their little own addon world, a world that would never exist in the first place without authors.

So, go ahead and not use our addons. We are probably better off. We are not asking for anyone to join us in our "Crusade" (lol "Crusade"...really), least of all users. Just because something is 'free to use' does not entitle you to act like a freaking *censored* and if you do, then be prepared to receive responses such as this. It's also bad that you are a professional programmer because at the end of the day, you don't really understand jack.
 
10-10-08, 04:53 AM   #33
Arabeth
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Originally Posted by Meldas View Post
Sure I accept the rights of you as an author (I'm a professional programmer myself - I know what I'm talking about). However, I also know that as soon as I put something as 'free to use' into the internet I'm also loosing the control over this.
That a piece of software is 'free to use' does not mean that the person using it for free has the right to its distribution, moreover if they do not attribute it to the original author and even worse, as has happened, they imply that it was them who wrote it!

WoWMatrix's 'business model' is not particularly robust. If the sites it relies on to supply the addons themselves rely on ad revenue to survive and WoWMatrix is essentially taking that revenue away from them, then those sites may (will) fold. If they all do that, WoWMatrix folds as it has nowhere to source its addons. And of course Meldas (for example) will have stopped using the ones that have only one source, which having folded ... you catch my drift.

As an addon user (never having written one) Tristanian still has my support (whether you need it or not) because I understand the effort that goes into producing the addons I use and appreciate it. And I do that because I am also a professional programmer!!
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10-10-08, 06:12 AM   #34
Meldas
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Originally Posted by Arabeth View Post
That a piece of software is 'free to use' does not mean that the person using it for free has the right to its distribution, moreover if they do not attribute it to the original author and even worse, as has happened, they imply that it was them who wrote it!
It's not as bad as you describe it here. They never imply that they wrote the Addons and the first entry from their FAQ reads:

Q. What is WowMatrix?

A. WowMatrix helps you download, install and update World of Warcraft AddOns. You can choose from over 1,500+ available WoW AddOns created by your favorite AddOn authors from all over the world.
And, as someone mentioned already, if you open up the information about the Addon in WoWMatrix, the author is now displayed. I wish they would also show a link to the Addon-Page or the author's Portal and I will also send them an email regarding this (of course you must also know that many wowace Addons don't have such an weblink so far).

The re-distribution part is a little bit tricky. I'm pretty sure the Addon authors didn't allow my Firefox-Browser to download (aka re-distribute?) their Addon. The only difference is that by pressing the 'Download'-Button in WoWInterface you are making a deal with WoWInterface, whilst in WoWMatrix when you press the 'Update All' Button you don't (of course you can argue you implicitly do agree to the policies of all involved Addon-Download-Sites at once).

WoWMatrix's 'business model' is not particularly robust. If the sites it relies on to supply the addons themselves rely on ad revenue to survive and WoWMatrix is essentially taking that revenue away from them, then those sites may (will) fold. If they all do that, WoWMatrix folds as it has nowhere to source its addons. And of course Meldas (for example) will have stopped using the ones that have only one source, which having folded ... you catch my drift.
So, you are saying we won't have any more Addons then? The end of the world?
That's an unlikely assumption.

As an addon user (never having written one) Tristanian still has my support (whether you need it or not) because I understand the effort that goes into producing the addons I use and appreciate it. And I do that because I am also a professional programmer!!
Believe me, I know the names and websites (or portals) of all authors of each one of my addons and I appreciate their efforts. Some Addons are downright beautiful pieces of creativity and since I did myself (for me and my guild) some smaller Addons or adjustments of 'no longer supported' Addons I know how much effort it takes to do this stuff. They get detailed error reports, help in translation and sometimes I even make 'customer support' for them by answering questions in their forums.

All this while I still use WoWMatrix.
 
10-10-08, 06:38 AM   #35
Taffu
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Originally Posted by Meldas
Believe me, I know the names and websites (or portals) of all authors of each one of my addons and I appreciate their efforts. Some Addons are downright beautiful pieces of creativity and since I did myself (for me and my guild) some smaller Addons or adjustments of 'no longer supported' Addons I know how much effort it takes to do this stuff. They get detailed error reports, help in translation and sometimes I even make 'customer support' for them by answering questions in their forums.

All this while I still use WoWMatrix.
Believe me, when I say that you do not represent the entire AddOn user base for World of Warcraft. There are quite a few things about WoWMatrix opposed to site-provided Download Clients that make it not only wrong, but unfair to Authors.

1) WoWMatrix (in general) doesn't base it's AddOn availability on Author submissions alone (which is should). Any 'ol Joe can ask them to include an AddOn in their distribution base. This is wrong! I (and other authors) gave no one the rights to decide the distribution method(s) for my/our AddOns. If WoWMatrix worked on Author-based submissions alone, I would have much less of a problem with it. As it stands, they've directly stated to me that "People ask for AddOns, and we include it if it's requested". This goes about distribution of the AddOns in an absolutely backwards manner.

2) WoWMatrix circumvents not only Bandwidth & hosting issues, but also does not extend testing/scanning to ensure AddOns are safe. When an author uploads their AddOn to WoWInterface, you get a notice after hitting "submit" telling you that it will not be immediately available because Devs on the site scan/view the general contents of the AddOn to ensure there's nothing dangerous being uploaded to their server. This takes time, effort, and one can argue funding to make sure every AddOn uploaded is looked at and confirmed to be safe for distribution. WoWMatrix leeches this security and simply distributes the content at the expense of other sites security measures. I think we all know there are less-than-safe sites out there to get AddOns...myself being a victim of a bad Curse & WoWUI a few years back. What guarantee does WoWMatrix provide that ensures that -all- content it distributes is safe? Not cool...if you ask me.

3) The circumventing of bandwidth and hosting alone is enough to put up a fuss. But the fact that they do it "on top of" the things listed above "as well as" with no immediate contribution to the sites they leech, or any effort to identify them makes it worse. They are parasitic in nature and they don't go about it in a positive way. You can create scripts, and other manners of multi-site updating your AddOns and that's fine. It doesn't make WoWMatrix "A.O.K." for what they do.

I see a lot of "supporters" of WoWMatrix still agreeing to a lot of problems the Authors have with it's distribution methods. It boggles me that people don't understand that WoW AddOns are an "author based community" that directly receives it's contributions from willing authors to release their work that they've provided their own time, effort, and creativity for free.

It's disheartening to see a bunch of AddOns users band together in support of something that a lot of authors directly feel is unjust to their work, and do so without considering the fact that they wouldn't have the AddOns in the first place if the authors hadn't put as much effort in creating and maintaining them. The authors choice in distribution is what matters, and it's the rule that should be followed...regardless of how you feel you should be allowed to update your AddOns. Don't bite the hand that feeds...
 
10-10-08, 08:44 AM   #36
Arabeth
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Originally Posted by Meldas View Post
It's not as bad as you describe it here. They never imply that they wrote the Addons .....
Oh, I wasn't meaning WoWMatrix specifcally in that last part, just in general. I read that they had started attributing in an earlier post and as far as that goes that's a good move. However, there was some other site mentioned in another thread (can't remember where it is though) that did seem to imply that it was resonsible for writing them (it was also distributing without authors' consent) that made me add that to my comment.

So, you are saying we won't have any more Addons then? The end of the world? That's an unlikely assumption.
No, I don't think that there will be no addons, just that the current distribution network for them will be shot. I was aiming at worst case scenario there, which, as not a few bankers also working with flawed business models have found to their (actually ours!) cost recently, is not a thing we can simply discount.
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10-10-08, 02:04 PM   #37
Vyper
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Reading this discussion I notice a disturbing trend.
Proponents of WoWMatrix seem to feel they have a right to convenient updates. You do not. You have no right to my or any other authors work whatsoever. You do however have the privilege of using that work. Does this mean that I or any other author doesn't care how you feel or what you want? Certainly not. Heck the reason QuestHelper is on this site is because enough people requested it that I decided to keep it up to date here as well. However just because something makes things slightly easier for you does not make it good or even OK.

Now if you want something like this, the correct way of going about it is to let someone know! Start a petition at all the interface sites! Sites already recognize that there is a desire for auto updating addons, which is why the Curse Client exists (as I understand it WoWI has something similar). If enough people are asking for a cross updater, WoWI and Curse will likely decided its profitable to get together and develop one. Heck one of the proponents of WoWMatrix claimed to be a programmer (though he showed a frightening disregard for copyright law). To you I say, if something like this is that important to you, by all means start a site that does it properly! Write your own updater and ask for the authors permission to include their addon. If your going to use someone else's bandwidth (which if done properly is not a bad thing) ask for help in ensuring you don't hurt their revenue. I have dealt with the WoWI devs before and am quite certain that they would be more than helpful to anyone wanting to do something like this properly. Provide links to the original authors page. Don't hide where it comes from.

As I stated before, WoWMatrix redistributing addons without the authors consent is illegal. Period. There is no arguing with that and to do so is foolish. Just because the authors aren't going to sue them (You think I have that kind of money?), and because copyright law does not allow us to do so if they remove the material on request, does not change the fact that it is illegal redistribution of a copyrighted work.
 
10-10-08, 03:02 PM   #38
Dajova
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Well, i recently noticed a change in their program, here is a screenshot of the change:

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10-10-08, 03:19 PM   #39
Vyper
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Originally Posted by richerich View Post
Well, i recently noticed a change in their program, here is a screenshot of the change:
Ok, they are giving authors credit. This is an improvement, but still not legal or ethical.
 
10-10-08, 03:22 PM   #40
twhiting9275
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Originally Posted by Dreadlorde View Post
Not many people care about authors, or care to fill out bug reports. It's sad. If it doesn't work on the first try, it's 'broken' to the person who tried it. They didn't trouble shoot, it didn't work so they ditched it and told every one else that it doesn't work.
Why should someone have to debug someone else's pathetic mod? They shouldn't!


Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
The point is (A) redistributing these without the original authors permission is illegal. Period. It doesn't matter that they remove it at the authors request, providing it on their service in the first place WAS illegal.
Incorrect. Claiming the mod is their own is illegal. Redistributing them is a grey area.

If the author says "do not redistribute", yet the site does so, then that is between the author, and the site, however it is NOT illegal to do, unless the author has SPECIFICALLY obtained copyrights and patents for each mod they have designed. The "If you design it, it is copyrighted" excuse is lame, and has been ruled against so many times it's not funny. If you WANT your work to be known only as your work, then COPYRIGHT it, legally.

Originally Posted by richerich View Post
.
Although, i can agree that they aint hosting the author's name anywhere is bad, but what can you do to stop it, except to sue them?
If you send a DMCA notice to the datacenter (or host), they are legally required to comply with this notice and remove the material immediately. Most will suspend the account and not allow it to be reactivated.

When it comes down to it, they are doing something wrong in the sense that they are taking other's bandwidth, but that's not their problem. If the download isn't properly protected, hey, it's out there for the world to take. If the download IS properly protected, then everything is good.
 

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