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07-02-05, 11:01 PM   #41
mondoz
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by guice
But then it throws things off balance vs NPCs prices. They are static and can't change.
NPC prices for items stop mattering around level 12 or so. Beyond that, the gear they sell do not have bonuses, and are not as good as the items found on corpses. No one buys them.
NPC prices for training aren't really relative to anything anyway. They don't go up very much as you approach level 60; they don't really scale with level. Inflation wouldn't matter there.
NPC prices for trade good accessories (vials, thread, etc...) become negligable after a while, so inflation doesn't matter there, either.
Flight route costs are also low enough to ignore as well.
Repair costs are also already extremely low, and wouldn't be 'thrown off' by inflation, either.

What balance are you speaking of?

And how many new player at the level 6 knows about the Auction House? I real new player, not one that has already leveled to 60.
Inflated gold prices only matter when it comes to AH prices. Your level 6 character that doesn't know about the AH wouldn't be affected at all by gold farmers.
If he's not buying from the AH, then he's not concerned at all about how much money other people have.


And lets not discount the fact added botting start incuraging eBaying as a different revenue for selling excess gear and money.

As for ebaying money, I also don't see the harm in that practice. If someone wants to spend their real money for something in a game, I think they should be able to.
It doesn't hurt me if someone else has their 'uber' gear because they bought it, and didn't actually find/earn it or if they used their credit card.
If you want to buy someone's level 60 character, go ahead. I think the fun is earning the gold/items/XP myself, but if someone else's fun is to take a pre-made 60 and go from there, how does it hurt me?
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07-03-05, 09:18 AM   #42
Littlejohn
A Warpwood Thunder Caller
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Originally Posted by mondoz
Inflated gold prices only matter when it comes to AH prices. Your level 6 character that doesn't know about the AH wouldn't be affected at all by gold farmers.
If he's not buying from the AH, then he's not concerned at all about how much money other people have.
It's a strong argument for sure. What's missing on both sides is evidence...

It would be interesting to have PvP and PvE "anarchy" servers -- bots, gold farming, etc. are all allowed. Players could transfer characters there like a test server.

Does anybody have any links to papers describing the psychology or economics of on-line games?
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07-03-05, 10:02 AM   #43
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
If you want to buy someone's level 60 character, go ahead. I think the fun is earning the gold/items/XP myself, but if someone else's fun is to take a pre-made 60 and go from there, how does it hurt me?
Hurts the guild he joins. People buy lvl 60 characters to get into end-game. If you don't know how to play that character, you can cause the guild more wipes than prevent. I high end guild doesn't have time nor the patients to teach somebody how to play their character from the ground up.

In WoW, once you hit 60, what is there to do, besides raid?

Last edited by guice : 07-03-05 at 10:06 AM.
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07-03-05, 01:49 PM   #44
chemosh
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7
Farming is the problem then?

Then 12 year old kids home for the summer playing 24x7 are also a problem?

"I think a better solution than outlawing bots would be tracking "exhaustion". The longer you play the worse your character acts. Exhaustion is a negative ability modifier that slows you down, lowers your abilities (all abilities!) and lowers your damage. A totally exhausted level 60 can be killed by a level 1 Kobold.

That's fun, realistic behavior that kills bots. (Could give a purpose to all those beds and chairs in the game...

Another take on exhaustion is just from a game-play perspective: your drop rate goes down. A totally exhausted character doesn't get anything from killing a mob. The *loot* is exhausted!

Oh, by the way, I'd track exhaustion by the player's account and not by the character. It wouldn't stop farming if somebody has 10 characters on one account and just switches whenever one gets exhausted."


While I can see "why" some may want this...Blizzard won't ever do this. Nor will any other online anything. For one simple fact. We are paying customers. They can't legally deny me access to the subscription I am paying for, because I "play" too much. In fact...due to the fact I play much, should be an incentive for them to encourage me to continue...I am, after all, paying for their salaries.

I pay the same as everyone else, yes I do power game, but mostly due to the fact, that where I live I am isolated, for the most part, and have little else to do...unless i like to drink, which got boring years ago...playing wow, is also like a IM system with graphics for me. I keep up with my friends in the states, while playing a game i enjoy. if something else comes up thats interesting I do that instead. *shrugs* to each his own.


And on the botting issue...Bots always destroy MMORPGs. They destroy the in game economies, close off most of the best places to game, i.e. best spawn sites, best drop areas, etc. A great example of Bots running amuk (sp? er, ya, *shrugs* its late >.<), would be the Dancer, Musician, and Doctor professions in Starwars Galaxies An Empire Divided. When launched many of the more social gamers LOVED the Dancer/Musician/Doctor professions. They just danced, chatted and basically loved it. Its exactly what they wanted, and they got to help other players in the process too. it was great, you come in after a tough bounty mission to find that hawt Twi'lek dancer smiling at you as you come in, and she dances the problems away (healed mind bar/stat wounds, i forget which >.<). And chats with you the whole time about anything. always engaging always a good time, then the holo grind was launched to "help" people get jedi...and what do you think came next? Bots. Afk grinders. The cantinas turned into an automated ghost factory....and the only reason anyone even went to one, is when one of your dancer/musician friends were there, or if none of them were on and you need a heal....not to mention the bots spamming chat asking for tips...begging more like. It got to the point that most of the socializers either quit the game out of frustration, or moved on to something else.

The doctor profession was great too. You could buff your friends, work on crafting the ultimate buff pack ( and many spent months just screwing with components to do it), help other players take on dangerous areas by keeping them alive, etc....after the holo grind started you could master doc in around 9 hours or so....due to damage bots (guys that would macro a combat ability that ate their action bar, there by allowing you to heal them and get xp), due to the fact you could even macro your character to heal while you were afk. you just came back once an hour or so, and trained...it became a joke.

You could grind any profession in that game in no longer than 3 days at most. the image designer profession could be grinded in under 3 hours, if macroed right.

see the point i am making? if you don't, then you don't agree or don't want too.

Bots are bad for business, which is why most mmorpg's are taking a more active role in gutting the ability to do so. Yes, this can hurt the casual, even honest power gamer, but its a small price to pay to keep the price of a "Light Feather" at 10 cp per,...not 10 GOLD per.

Anyways, just my thoughts on it, hopefully none were offended, and if so, I do apologize, and hope that you see this as debate, and not personal attack.

Chemosh
Earthen Ring Server
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07-03-05, 02:02 PM   #45
chemosh
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Littlejohn
It's a strong argument for sure. What's missing on both sides is evidence...

It would be interesting to have PvP and PvE "anarchy" servers -- bots, gold farming, etc. are all allowed. Players could transfer characters there like a test server.

Does anybody have any links to papers describing the psychology or economics of on-line games?

If you want to see what botting does, or afk grinding, go play Shadowbane, their servers are anarchy incarnate and new players quit shortly after signing up due to massive griefing....they had like, what?, 15 to 25 servers? now they have 3. clear enough evidence?

I will say that eventually, keyword: Eventually, all players WILL use the AH. So Eventually all ARE affected by gold inflation, gold farming, afk loot farming, etc.

Granted they are not "required" to use the ah, but at some point you must take the path of least resistance. that is the ah. but when that path becomes more impossible than the only other route, it detracts from the fun factor. some will still argue, but again *shrugs* to each his own.
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07-03-05, 02:11 PM   #46
chemosh
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: May 2005
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"NPC prices for items stop mattering around level 12 or so. Beyond that, the gear they sell do not have bonuses, and are not as good as the items found on corpses. No one buys them.
NPC prices for training aren't really relative to anything anyway. They don't go up very much as you approach level 60; they don't really scale with level. Inflation wouldn't matter there.
NPC prices for trade good accessories (vials, thread, etc...) become negligable after a while, so inflation doesn't matter there, either.
Flight route costs are also low enough to ignore as well.
Repair costs are also already extremely low, and wouldn't be 'thrown off' by inflation, either.

What balance are you speaking of?"

Might be the fact that by your own statement you pointed it out.

"NPC prices for items stop mattering around level 12 or so. Beyond that, the gear they sell do not have bonuses, and are not as good as the items found on corpses. No one buys them.:

That fact alone is why the AH is so very beneficial. the only time people actually do buy the junk from vendors (weapons mostly) is to skill up a weapon, without worrying about paying 2 to 8 gold on repairs for their blue/epic gear.

Being able to swing by the Auction House, and quickly purchase the next best weapon for your level is very convenient, a huge time saver, and much better than wasting hours on end hoping for a drop, only to realize you just gained another level and the weapon/armor is already obsolete. Now you don't really "need" gear at your level always, this is true, but it is nice to have the option....and gold farming, generally takes away that option, or complicates it unnecessarily.

In a nutshell gold farming = bad business for gaming companies....hence them cracking down on it, when it goes wild.

*shrugs* to each his own, hopefully something i said here, helps someone else...if not oh well.
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07-03-05, 02:26 PM   #47
mondoz
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by guice
Hurts the guild he joins. People buy lvl 60 characters to get into end-game. If you don't know how to play that character, you can cause the guild more wipes than prevent. I high end guild doesn't have time nor the patients to teach somebody how to play their character from the ground up.

In WoW, once you hit 60, what is there to do, besides raid?

And a good guild will recognize this, and either teach them or kick them.

I know plenty of players who have reached level 60 on their own, yet have no idea how to really play their class.
Let's face it. Anyone with the patience to do it can reach level 60. It's not that hard to go run the easy missions.
Having reached level 60 on your own does not mean you'll be any better than someone who bought one.
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07-03-05, 02:28 PM   #48
mondoz
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by Littlejohn
It's a strong argument for sure. What's missing on both sides is evidence...

It would be interesting to have PvP and PvE "anarchy" servers -- bots, gold farming, etc. are all allowed. Players could transfer characters there like a test server.

Does anybody have any links to papers describing the psychology or economics of on-line games?

I would love to see some data on this. I think it would be extremely interesting.
I'm sure it won't be long before someone writes their thesis on the economics of online games...
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07-03-05, 02:36 PM   #49
chemosh
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: May 2005
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Originally Posted by mondoz
I would love to see some data on this. I think it would be extremely interesting.
I'm sure it won't be long before someone writes their thesis on the economics of online games...

Actually, people have. Read something about MMORPG economies, etc. they went into detail on a lot of things.


Oh, and I stand corrected. As I read through all the posts, I see what Mondoz is talking about. In "most" other mmorpg's its either completely or mostly a player dependant economy so gold farming flushes them down the toilet.

But he brings up some extremely valuable points.

1. 1 gold or 1 billion gold is irrelevant when coming to BoP items. You are right I do love that about WoW.

2. The fact that WoW built such a strong economy in the game, fixing all the "important" prices in the game so that anyone of the appropriate level could use them without being bankrupted. I.e. Flights, training, repairs.

3. While personally it is always nice to have lots of gold, he is right...its not really needed that much, unless you come across something very rare, and even then nothing stops you from just going to go get it yourself.

Good arguments all. And sound. Never saw it that way, as far as WoW is concerned.
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07-03-05, 02:52 PM   #50
mondoz
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 31
And on the botting issue...Bots always destroy MMORPGs. They destroy the in game economies, close off most of the best places to game, i.e. best spawn sites, best drop areas, etc. A great example of Bots running amuk (sp? er, ya, *shrugs* its late >.<), would be the Dancer, Musician, and Doctor professions in Starwars Galaxies An Empire Divided.

...

Afk grinders. The cantinas turned into an automated ghost factory
....
It got to the point that most of the socializers either quit the game out of frustration, or moved on to something else.

The doctor profession was great too.
....
after the holo grind started you could master doc in around 9 hours or so....
...
you just came back once an hour or so, and trained...it became a joke.

You could grind any profession in that game in no longer than 3 days at most. the image designer profession could be grinded in under 3 hours, if macroed right.
(some snippets removed)
In the case of SWG, I completely agree. That game was all about professions, and I believe the complete boredom from doing them the 'right' way was what drove people to create these mods.
Spending 8 hours a day running about collecting mineral deposits?
Spending all day in a hospital healing people?
*yawn*
I didn't play it very long before I just couldn't take it anymore.

I've been playing WoW since it was out of beta, and I still haven't run out of things to do. There've been a few times I've had to 'grind' a few things, but for the most part, if I'm bored of something, I can go do something completely different, and have fun doing it.

If auto-grinding leads to lots and lots of characters who cannot gain any new abilities by performing tasks, then I think we're already there. I have a level 60 character, and about the only things I could level up anymore is my reputation with various factions and fishing. I guess I could go get gold for an epic mount, but there's no other aspect I could improve by using an auto-bot. I believe there are a vast number of people that are at the same point, and yet the game isn't destroyed. If someone gets to that point through artificial means, I can't tell the difference... And the sheer number don't seem to be a problem, at least on the server I play on.
All that's really left at the moment is to go on raids, play some pvp, battlegrounds, and finish up old quests. Those aren't something you could bot.

Bots are bad for business, which is why most mmorpg's are taking a more active role in gutting the ability to do so. Yes, this can hurt the casual, even honest power gamer, but its a small price to pay to keep the price of a "Light Feather" at 10 cp per,...not 10 GOLD per.
I think this is generally true, depending on the game. SWG was the perfect environment for bots, because other than fighting, all you could possibly do was grind. Designing a game where all you did all day was push the same button over and over again is a horrible design.
Other games I've played had better designs, and botting was less attractive, and more difficult.

Then we have WoW. As far as I'm aware, in the game's current state, botting can only yield gold and xp. And bots that can yield that sort of thing completely unattended would be a fairly impressive programming feat.
And yet, WoW's economy is designed in such a way that I truly believe that rampant gold farmers would not ruin the game.
The AH would be the only thing affected, and everyone has the same chance to find items out in the wild that will sell at the newly upwardly scaled market price. I belive the prices would go up, but not the actual value of the items.
If a light feather goes for 8 g instead of 8 s, then I can sell the light feathers that I can't use to the people who can afford them, and you can sell your light linen for 8 g and afford to buy your light feather.

A bottle of coke used to cost a nickel. Now it goes for a dollar.
Back then, people wouldn't have been able to afford it, but because the prices increased across the board, at a fairly equal rate, it's not such a big deal.
This is how I would imagine the economics of WoW would be affected.
Perhaps not in other games, but I think due to WoW's excellent design, it would weather the storm of inflation quite nicely.


Anyways, just my thoughts on it, hopefully none were offended, and if so, I do apologize, and hope that you see this as debate, and not personal attack.

Chemosh
Earthen Ring Server
Personally, that's exactly how I'm reading all of these posts.
I'm glad this is a place where every other post isn't some kind of childish insult like it seems to be on the official boards.
An intelligent discussion online seems to be something of a rarity these days.
Although, you can feel free to throw in a 'your mom' comment every now and then to lighten the mood.
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07-03-05, 03:06 PM   #51
mondoz
An Aku'mai Servant
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by chemosh
Good arguments all. And sound. Never saw it that way, as far as WoW is concerned.
Thanks. I agree. I think this has been a pretty interesting discussion.

Botting/Farming/eBaying/etc... as only it applies to WoW alone was really my point all along. I'm certain these behaviors can destroy other games, and I think the SWG points have described this perfectly.

Bad game design is a massive component in this concept. I've seen games that cover the entire spectrum of player based economies and no economies at all.
City of Heroes and Anarchy Online spring to mind as having almost no economy at all.
SWG was completely the opposite, and had an extremely fragile economy. I think theirs was an interesting experiment, but ultimately showed how bad things can go.

However, WoW's concept of an economy is the best I have seen.
Their BoP concept, their camp-resistant instances, their implementation of the AH... I think all of these are wonderful checks and balances against rampant inflation, even in the face of rampant gold farming.
I'd absolutely love to see what WoW's economic model did if LittleJohn's idea were attemtped, and gold farmers and eBay'ers were allowed to go nuts on a single server, just as an experiment.
Of any online community game, I really think WoW would stand the best chance of remaining intact, and preserving the same experience it provides now.
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07-03-05, 03:15 PM   #52
mondoz
An Aku'mai Servant
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Originally Posted by chemosh
3. While personally it is always nice to have lots of gold, he is right...its not really needed that much, unless you come across something very rare, and even then nothing stops you from just going to go get it yourself.

On a side note, I've actually tried to play 'price fixer' on a couple occasions, just to see if it would actually do anything.
I've bought up all the items of a certain type, something seen not very often... Raised the prices of them, and re-listed them.

It never works. There's always someone who comes in right after, and undercuts my prices.
Before I know it, someone else has undercut them. And again.
Suddenly, I'm left with these items that I can't sell for a profit, much less the price I actually bought them at.

I have about 5 'Tomes of Arcane Brilliance' in my bank right now that I would have to practically give away to get rid of.
At the time, they seemed to be fairly rare, and run at a pretty good price. Now their price is in the toilet because more people are finding them somehow.

In other occasions, for really rare items, that I've only seen once or twice, those can be bought and resold for more, but even then, you're running the risk of getting stuck with a pretty pricey item that might never sell. Someone on my server does this excessively with blue and purple items. But almost always, someone else undercuts him, and it's suddenly a non-issue.

And for common items, like wool or low level ore, just forget it.
There's way too much of it out there, people put it up for auction at a fantastic rate, and everyone wants to undercut each other.

Some of these experiments really make me thing WoW's setup is currently darn near invincible, and scales fantastically.
Blizzard really pulled off something special.
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07-03-05, 03:35 PM   #53
Kaelten
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In response to prices on varios servers I've played on about 5 or 6 servers now and what I've seen is that if you had a big farming guild then you'd see level 1's selling purples for 400-650g and being laughed at and ignored by everyone.

AH prices will go up, but I don't think the average person really buys that much at that point but rather only level 60's alts with ton of money they got from farming gold actually buy that.

But a few dedicated crafters can easily change portions of an economey like that by providing needed wares for reasonable prices.

To some extent the addons like Auctioneer and AuctionMatrix and even my own KC_Auction will contribute to inflation as inevitably the averages they store get slanted higher and higher as people post for higher and higher prices. People use these averages as a standard to sell by instead of trying to figure out what a item is actually worth. You have enough people doing this and prices will go up.

just some random thoughts.
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07-03-05, 05:07 PM   #54
guice
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Originally Posted by Kaelten
You have enough people doing this and prices will go up..
Not exactly. Farming for items would actually cause prices to go down. Supply vs demand; over supply and the price drops.

The biggest issue about farming itself is when people turn items they have into coin not gained by players (ie; merchants). When the ratio of money gained > money leaving the economy, the prices rise. Bot farming is the leading culprit.

Bots are bad ... and I do feel anybody that would vote for bots must be doing a bit of that nature his or herself or there wouldn't be an argument on their side. Who wants to see the price of their favorite lvl 45 staff/sword over 1k cause of farming?! An economy should never be allowed to the point where a user must bot just to keep up (if you want that goto Lineage II where I hear a lvl 20 item costs a couple million Adena).
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07-03-05, 07:05 PM   #55
Kaelten
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Originally Posted by guice
Not exactly. Farming for items would actually cause prices to go down. Supply vs demand; over supply and the price drops.

The biggest issue about farming itself is when people turn items they have into coin not gained by players (ie; merchants). When the ratio of money gained > money leaving the economy, the prices rise. Bot farming is the leading culprit.

Bots are bad ... and I do feel anybody that would vote for bots must be doing a bit of that nature his or herself or there wouldn't be an argument on their side. Who wants to see the price of their favorite lvl 45 staff/sword over 1k cause of farming?! An economy should never be allowed to the point where a user must bot just to keep up (if you want that goto Lineage II where I hear a lvl 20 item costs a couple million Adena).
Um quince you misread my post I was refering to people relying on teh increasingly rising averages provided by programs like auctioneer can cause a form of inflation.

and as far as botting goes I dont support it at all, and I think most of the people here that have said anything is that they believe that the econmy that blizzard's setup is more resistant to botting induced inflation than other MMORPG's and that it would be an interesting experiment to see if this was true.

I havn't actually seen anyone vote "Pro Bot" in all this, just that people would like to see the functionality of something like AutoTravel remain in the game in some form or fashion.
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07-03-05, 07:43 PM   #56
Littlejohn
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Originally Posted by Kaelten
... Auctioneer and AuctionMatrix and even my own KC_Auction ... People use these averages as a standard to sell by instead of trying to figure out what a item is actually worth. You have enough people doing this and prices will go up.
That's a very interesting comment. What is an item actually worth? I'd say items are worth what people are willing to spend for them. Isn't that close to what your auction mod reports? (It'd be perfect if there was a way to exclude the prices of all the items that didn't sell.)

My main is a tailor/enchanter. Frequently I've got extra strange dust that I put up for auction. If somebody has listed stacks under what I know I can sell it for, I usually buy them out just so I can sell my stuff for the price I want. There's really no risk for this since strange dust has no deposit. (I just bank the extra and sell it later.)
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07-03-05, 07:52 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by mondoz
Personally, that's exactly how I'm reading all of these posts.
I'm glad this is a place where every other post isn't some kind of childish insult like it seems to be on the official boards.
An intelligent discussion online seems to be something of a rarity these days.
Although, you can feel free to throw in a 'your mom' comment every now and then to lighten the mood.
Happily, it the norm, not an exception, around here.

The only "your mom" comments that are allowed to be used on this board would all be directed at me, so you might want to be careful ...
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07-03-05, 07:55 PM   #58
Kaelten
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yes mommy I'll be careful. :runs:
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07-03-05, 07:56 PM   #59
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Go back to talking about the changes
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07-03-05, 09:22 PM   #60
Littlejohn
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Originally Posted by Kaelten
I havn't actually seen anyone vote "Pro Bot" in all this, just that people would like to see the functionality of something like AutoTravel remain in the game in some form or fashion.
That's true. I'm probably the most pro-bot person here -- I'm also a newbie who hasn't witnessed the wreckage bots cause. I think autotravel is fine, but "click to heal lowest party member" crosses the line. That's too much like an aim-bot for my taste.

The most important thing for me is a vibrant, creative add-on community. If mods are ultimately limited to only making different shape buttons, I think we will have lost an amazing opportunity. I've spent time looking for other games with scripting features like WoW and I haven't found any. It's a killer feature. Is losing auto-travel going to kill scripting? No, certainly not. But I think I'd better defend it because something I use may be on the chopping block next.
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WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » Movement mods will not work as of next patch.

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