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08-16-05, 12:07 PM   #21
Syxx
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Originally Posted by Kaelten
My suggestion for the course of action for you is to

1) clear your DB.

2) finish the full system

3) relaunch the site and invite authors to post there.

Kaelten is exactly right. Doing the leg work to get a site going goes miles in respect for that site and it's Admin(s).

In doing what you have done, you've alienated the authors. Which isn't a good thing to do to a beginning website.

6
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08-16-05, 03:16 PM   #22
tralkar
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Quote:
However, one thing for sure, you cannot judge me like this - because I clearly explained that all major parts have done the same.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This site has never uploaded someone's mods. The only people that upload mods here are the mod authors themselves. Always been that way, always will be.
I just had to add this in IF you are not the author of a mod, DON'T post it ! !
Meaning i see alot of people going to other sites and copying there stuff and posting on the bourds.. Most say there not there own but still.. If the author wanted it here he would of posted it him/her self...If you think its a great mod then post a link to it..

Last edited by tralkar : 08-16-05 at 03:19 PM.
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08-16-05, 03:39 PM   #23
Brugs
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Originally Posted by Syxx
Kaelten is exactly right. Doing the leg work to get a site going goes miles in respect for that site and it's Admin(s).

In doing what you have done, you've alienated the authors. Which isn't a good thing to do to a beginning website.

6
The concept sounds good on a paper, so did communism, but to be honest the concept does not work in reality. To get big, you must think big.

I see it like this, there is the One Microsoft Way, or win the popularity way.

You cannot have them both.

Anyways, I do lissent to you, I will need some time to consider this option.

Brugs

Last edited by Brugs : 08-16-05 at 04:49 PM.
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08-16-05, 05:24 PM   #24
Kaelten
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@Brugs

You should be able to do a search of my mods by my authors name right?

Also as I have custodial ownership of all of Turans Mods on all sites except curse-gaming I request that they be taken down as well.

So here is a list

Ace
Ace Development Kit
AuctionIt
AuctionHelper
OneBag
Tipster
AutoRepair (Kael Cycle)
KC_EnhancedTrades
KC_Items
KC_RadialButtons
Shutup!
MyBindings
MoneyFrameNuker
PackRat
SplitSafely
Stalker


And to be frankly honest. I don't have a problem with your site. What does bother me is that these things where added without me even being notified. Not so much of a permission thing. Also the lack of abilty for me to even be able to offer maintence/support to these addons.

However I would request that any and all of the above listed addons be removed from your database indefintely.

You want to become the best site?

Here's my advice.

1) Respect the authors and pay attention to our requests. For as much as you make the site so do we.

2) Offer advanced features and services to both users and authors.

3) Focus your site on usability and functionality. Not on the attitude that "We are the first and greatest." This is a turn off.

4) Try to help both users and authors achive new things to aid them. Not yourself.


These are the things that can lead to awesome things for a site imho.

Please consider these things and honor my request of removing mine and turan's addons from your site.

Thank you.
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08-16-05, 06:56 PM   #25
Brugs
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Originally Posted by Kaelten
You should be able to do a search of my mods by my authors name right?

Also as I have custodial ownership of all of Turans Mods on all sites except curse-gaming I request that they be taken down as well.

So here is a list

Ace
Ace Development Kit
AuctionIt
AuctionHelper
OneBag
Tipster
AutoRepair (Kael Cycle)
KC_EnhancedTrades
KC_Items
KC_RadialButtons
Shutup!
MyBindings
MoneyFrameNuker
PackRat
SplitSafely
Stalker


And to be frankly honest. I don't have a problem with your site. What does bother me is that these things where added without me even being notified. Not so much of a permission thing. Also the lack of abilty for me to even be able to offer maintence/support to these addons.

However I would request that any and all of the above listed addons be removed from your database indefintely.

You want to become the best site?

Here's my advice.

1) Respect the authors and pay attention to our requests. For as much as you make the site so do we.

2) Offer advanced features and services to both users and authors.

3) Focus your site on usability and functionality. Not on the attitude that "We are the first and greatest." This is a turn off.

4) Try to help both users and authors achive new things to aid them. Not yourself.


These are the things that can lead to awesome things for a site imho.

Please consider these things and honor my request of removing mine and turan's addons from your site.

Thank you.
I removed your UI Mods from my site, and I deeply respect your choice.

Moreover it is definitely not an easy choice, to message hundreds of UI Mod Developers. Infact this is an enormous task, and I really think it is all about expectation.

Do not forget that the other UI Mod Databases are approximate 5-6 months ahead me, but you do expect the same requirements from my site.

Well I did win some time, but now I definitely get some drawbacks.

However I find it sad to be excluded from the free market, and I do not see what it cost you to be hosted at my site.

I see it as a free service for you, where you are promoted freely.

This is matter of trust, everyone should have the possibility to show there art.

Brugs
World of Warcraft UI Mods Database
http://www.wow-db.com

Last edited by Brugs : 08-16-05 at 07:28 PM.
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08-16-05, 07:35 PM   #26
teddyboy420
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I think you hit the nail right on the head with that last line of your last post Brugs.And I quote:

"This is matter of trust, everyone should have the possibility to show there art."

I think that is the problem some people are having. It's a matter of trust, and it IS THEIR art, not yours. So, they should be the ones to decide if they want it on your site or not, not you. By taking a "pre built" DB and loading it up on your site, you are taking other peoples work and distributing it. They may not want it on your site for whatever reason, but that is thier choice, not yours.

No one here thinks you are doing this malicously or anything of the sort. It's all about the fact that these people made the mods, and they should be deciding where it is distributed.
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08-16-05, 07:49 PM   #27
Rastaah
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I think the fact they cant even update or maintain the mods you added is a big problem.

Heh.

Some people.
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08-16-05, 08:20 PM   #28
Remelio
 
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(speaking from experence with eq ui mods)

The biggest problem with someone else hosting your UI and you have no access to update it is that you have people going there to download the (old) version of your mod from that site, get errors, figure out how to contact you, complain that there is a problem (that you know you've fixed) and you try to fix it and then finally you find out that they're using an old version. Not to mention the frustration of the users that just download it and go "well thats a load of hooey - that remelio's stuff doesn't work worth a darn" and then never download your stuff again.

So thats the reasoning behind it. Its not that they don't want free hosting, its the headaches that arise from the fact that the game is constantly in a state of change, and new errors arise all the time from updates making old versions obsolete.

Hopefully I explained that well. Feel free to add in anything I missed.
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08-16-05, 08:22 PM   #29
Kaelten
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The problems that I see is

a) With every site I maintain my work on it increases my work load dramatically. I already host on 4 sites, and am debating starting a thread in the blizzard ui forums.

Thats alot of work, both updating and reading comments.

If you want to win me as a supporter then please introduce features that make it easier for me to manage my addons than at other sites, or even to some extent keep watch on them too.

b) The way you've done it, I don't even have the ability to maintain the addon at your site.

I can sometimes put out 4 or 5 versions a day, I think my record was 12.

If I cant update the addon that means the users of your site are stuck with an old, potentially harmful version.



One thing I think it would be nice is if someone wrote and maintained a search site that would search and index the other main sites.

This of course has its own set of drawbacks but I think it would be a valuable contribution to the community.
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08-17-05, 12:11 AM   #30
mondinga
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While yer at it, remove all of the Gypsy add-ons you have, and keep them off.
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08-17-05, 01:17 AM   #31
Numgrak
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
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Think it's fairly obvious that this is a great template on how NOT to go about using other people's intellectual property. The smart thing would have been to ask the authors of the largest, most popular mods for permission to host their files. 15-20 emails wouldnt have taken that long. Seeing that every mod author I can think of hosts his/her work on multiple sites, it's more than likely you'd of received permission. The smaller more specialized mods and authors would show up thereafter just like every other mod site out there. A little tact and common courtesy would have gotten you alot farther than stealing every mod you chose without the authors permission.
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08-17-05, 03:05 AM   #32
draxshar
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Sorry if I am beating a dead horse with this, but this issue is one of my biggest pet-peeves being a fellow artist, so forgive me in advance if I seem to rant...

/onsoapbox

Brugs, I dont think that you understand the gravity of the situation from the nonchalance in your posts. Posting others creations on the internet or for download without the creators consent is theft, plain and simple. As a photographer/graphic artist whose work is on the internet, I am faced with this delema frequently, (and I have had this happen to me). Writing on add-on is no different than any other piece of art, its all intellectual property and cannot be redistributed without the authors consent, its their decision where/when/how to release/post/update their creations. We artists want total control of our work, (as we should), and your site has denied that very basic right. (All of the sites that you have mentioned give the authors control over their work). It would be no different than if someone came to your site and began downloading your' graphics, (that you worked hard on), or hi-jacked your code to use for their own site, (and no doubt you would be upset with over 500 hours of work). Its all intellectual property.

Dont get me wrong, I dont believe there was any malicious intent here, and yes, getting a site up and running is tough work, but I'll bet you 99% of the authors out there would have gladly given you permission to host their work, (as you said, it is a free service), but the creator has a right to decide where their work is shown. 10-20 emails asking permission could have saved you hours of work and not starting your site off with a black eye.

You must respect the art and its creators, especially now in this digital age when it is so easy to take basically anything, (giving credit or not)...

/offsoapbox

And a last suggestion...I would tread lightly with your comments to Cairenn here...Many of us have been with her through the years at EQInterface and now here, and she is very well respected, and she works her tail off here, (for us and you). Remember, you are trying to get people to use your service, so be respectful. Image is everything...

Last edited by draxshar : 08-17-05 at 03:20 AM.
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08-17-05, 04:05 AM   #33
Brugs
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Originally Posted by Kaelten

One thing I think it would be nice is if someone wrote and maintained a search site that would search and index the other main sites.

This of course has its own set of drawbacks but I think it would be a valuable contribution to the community.
Now those lines really make me think twice, first you say you cannot distribute other people's work.
Suddenly you say it is ok to index information from other sites.

First I think the thing between mod authors and mod hosts, is authors focus to much on there specific UI mods, where hosts have to focus on a larger perspective.

This is exactly where my concept differs from other sites. I think the true question between us here is where our true values is, I support modern technology, where I believe you still support old fashion technology. Now you must consider, I did not take this step without risk, I knew clearly that this would have drawbacks, because this is something NEW.

I am trying to move in a new direction, to do so have never been easy for the human kind, because I am a place between the past field, and a new unexplored area. You do clearly know now, what my intentions are. I hope you have the humanity to understand my choice.

Let us imagine a system that could index newest information from all other sites. The fact authors do not even need to update it manually. We are talking about a 100% automated process.

To get back on which system is the right, there is no such definitive solution, and both sides have drawbacks... I will demonstrate here.

Solution #1: The authors need to update many (4-5) UI Mods databases manually.
+ Human Support
+ Modification
- Time consuming
- Increasing human errors
- The UI Mod DB's have different versions - so people end up getting an old version.

Solution #2: 100% Complete automated process, there is no doubt this one is the leading in technology.
+ Require absolutely no time
+ Updates the data / system automatically

- The Authors has no influence
- Human support
- Wrong / Corrupted Data (any automated process errors)

So my question is which system would you prefer?

Brugs
World of Warcraft UI Mods Database
http://www.wow-db.com
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08-17-05, 04:51 AM   #34
Brugs
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Originally Posted by draxshar
Sorry if I am beating a dead horse with this, but this issue is one of my biggest pet-peeves being a fellow artist, so forgive me in advance if I seem to rant...

/onsoapbox

Brugs, I dont think that you understand the gravity of the situation from the nonchalance in your posts. Posting others creations on the internet or for download without the creators consent is theft, plain and simple. As a photographer/graphic artist whose work is on the internet, I am faced with this delema frequently, (and I have had this happen to me). Writing on add-on is no different than any other piece of art, its all intellectual property and cannot be redistributed without the authors consent, its their decision where/when/how to release/post/update their creations. We artists want total control of our work, (as we should), and your site has denied that very basic right. (All of the sites that you have mentioned give the authors control over their work). It would be no different than if someone came to your site and began downloading your' graphics, (that you worked hard on), or hi-jacked your code to use for their own site, (and no doubt you would be upset with over 500 hours of work). Its all intellectual property.

Dont get me wrong, I dont believe there was any malicious intent here, and yes, getting a site up and running is tough work, but I'll bet you 99% of the authors out there would have gladly given you permission to host their work, (as you said, it is a free service), but the creator has a right to decide where their work is shown. 10-20 emails asking permission could have saved you hours of work and not starting your site off with a black eye.

You must respect the art and its creators, especially now in this digital age when it is so easy to take basically anything, (giving credit or not)...

/offsoapbox

And a last suggestion...I would tread lightly with your comments to Cairenn here...Many of us have been with her through the years at EQInterface and now here, and she is very well respected, and she works her tail off here, (for us and you). Remember, you are trying to get people to use your service, so be respectful. Image is everything...
It is a balance, not to harm your morale or respect; I do think you have a valid point. What is going on the internet today is a complete chaotic playground, 80% of all people think it is ok to steal peoples art, by downloading music, film and so on. However, artists are against it, but the fact has shown that they are promoted free. This has a very important role with my philosophy, because it is a win / win situation for all the parts, and it lead to something new and creative. What most artists, also forget that they are actually just, building on the top of the pyramids, I rarely ever see any original idea or concept. I see it as a natural evolution.

With the today's information technology we live of information and the more information you have and can give, the more powerful you get. What you maybe did not know any major company on the internet live of yours information. Therefore, the conclusion is that we are a redistribution society. For that reason, our morale has a very low influence today. What people really want is the best information/solution.

Now to get back on track, luckily the World of Warcraft Community is very nice. Well this will not last forever, and we are already moving there. Things will get out of hands, and this is matter of time.

Now this does not say that I do not respect you as a person, its simply confirms that we have different views on this topic.

To sum up, think more about your creativity and art, because redistribution will always exist.

Brugs
World of Warcraft UI Mods Database
http://www.wow-db.com

Last edited by Brugs : 08-17-05 at 04:59 AM.
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08-17-05, 06:08 AM   #35
Kaelten
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Originally Posted by Brugs
Now those lines really make me think twice, first you say you cannot distribute other people's work.
Suddenly you say it is ok to index information from other sites.

First I think the thing between mod authors and mod hosts, is authors focus to much on there specific UI mods, where hosts have to focus on a larger perspective.

This is exactly where my concept differs from other sites. I think the true question between us here is where our true values is, I support modern technology, where I believe you still support old fashion technology. Now you must consider, I did not take this step without risk, I knew clearly that this would have drawbacks, because this is something NEW.

I am trying to move in a new direction, to do so have never been easy for the human kind, because I am a place between the past field, and a new unexplored area. You do clearly know now, what my intentions are. I hope you have the humanity to understand my choice.

Let us imagine a system that could index newest information from all other sites. The fact authors do not even need to update it manually. We are talking about a 100% automated process.

To get back on which system is the right, there is no such definitive solution, and both sides have drawbacks... I will demonstrate here.

Solution #1: The authors need to update many (4-5) UI Mods databases manually.
+ Human Support
+ Modification
- Time consuming
- Increasing human errors
- The UI Mod DB's have different versions - so people end up getting an old version.

Solution #2: 100% Complete automated process, there is no doubt this one is the leading in technology.
+ Require absolutely no time
+ Updates the data / system automatically

- The Authors has no influence
- Human support
- Wrong / Corrupted Data (any automated process errors)

So my question is which system would you prefer?

Brugs
World of Warcraft UI Mods Database
http://www.wow-db.com
you misunderstand my suggestion.

Indexing the other sites is NOT hosting files.

Its providing a searchable database of ui mods with links to the other sites. This should be fairly easy to maintain as far as current lists, since all your script would have to do is watch the *new list from the site.

This could be a cronjob that ran every 3-6 hours and generate no more load on the other sites than visiting a bookmark.

This would

a) Be something the community doesn't have but would be useful.

b) Not cause much if any more stress/work for authors

c) Not be infringing on anyones intellectual property since you are not actually distributing files, but instead providing a cross site search engine and then linking to where the files are actually contained.


Thats my two cents, on something that you could do which might be received better.

I'm done discussing this. Bottom line is that I, and at least several other authors, feel that your approach is wrong for various reasons. We don't hate or dislike the fact that your putting up a site. Just the approach your taking with it. Some of us would like to see you go back and change your way on it. But no I degress.

Good day, and good luck. I hope you can make the changes that would be needed to make your site a success.
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08-17-05, 06:33 AM   #36
draxshar
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Again, forgive me if I seem overzealous on this subject, but as an artist that has been ripped off, this is a topic that burns my biscuits...

Originally Posted by Brugs
...What is going on the internet today is a complete chaotic playground, 80% of all people think it is ok to steal peoples art, by downloading music, film and so on.
But in reality, isnt that what you have done here? Taken possession of another persons work without their consent? Isnt that the definiton of theft? Theft is still theft, whether it is something tangable like a car or a stereo, or whether it is something intangable, like someones idea or a bunch of 0's and 1's stored electronically.
Originally Posted by Brugs
However, artists are against it, but the fact has shown that they are promoted free. This has a very important role with my philosophy, because it is a win / win situation for all the parts, and it lead to something new and creative.
Its not a win/win situation because the artist surrenders all control over his/her creation, (which we do to a certain degree anyways by even putting our work out there), but its compounded when the means are easily available to discuss your intentions with the creator and not taken advantage of. Your site wouldnt even exsist if it werent for the work of these people, and that is a simple fact. So while you are building off of what they made, doesnt it seem decent to at least discuss your intentions with them? They may love the idea so much, they may offer to help you in your endevor.
Originally Posted by Brugs
Another factor is you cannot judge anyone here about intellectual property - we can only hence about this. None of us has the technical expertise, neither the right to stamp each other - because this simply leads to no good.
You couldn't be further from the truth...The authors have every right to judge on their intellectual property, they are the creators, and owners. Its their right, and theirs alone, to say what can and cant be done with it, and that makes them judge, jury, and executioner where their work is concerned. Thats why there is copyright law, to protect the artist and give them the power over their work.

I know why you defend this so passionately, (and its admirable),...its the same reason all of us that create do. We start with nothing, build it up through trial and error, hard work, blood, sweat, and tears until its finally done and ready and seeing that finished project gives us a rush of accomplishment, pride, satisfaction and victory. To see your idea come to life, its an incredible feeling. But you cant do that at anothers expense.

You said you wanted to offer something "new", then offer something with your site that no one else has. Anyone can go out and download every addon out there and post them on their site...Dont be like that 80% out there...Good luck, I hope you read these posts, and make some changes...No one here wants to see you fail.

Last edited by draxshar : 08-17-05 at 06:38 AM.
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08-17-05, 11:56 AM   #37
Rastaah
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With every post your bs just gets deeper, Im going to take my leave too because Cairenn asks it remain civil. Hard to be civil with someone who thinks denying authors access to their own work is right.

Just cant wrap the lil blonde brain around that one.

/ciao

edit: And I see my Collection is already on there, please remove it, its Sparkles Hunter Collection. Number one you dont have screenshots, Number 2 I cant update it and its already outdated and Number 3, It looks sloppy as its obviously a cut and paste and was not carefully posted by ME. (it runs right down to the bottom, no screenies etc just messy looking) I put a lot of work into this and making sure I keep it updated and on par with what hunters need/want and wont lag their computers etc.
I dont want this up on a site that I can not update it.

When you want to give the people who write the mod's and compile them as well the ability to update and add their own work get in touch with everyone. Until then, like I said, Im done responding.
Thank you.

Last edited by Rastaah : 08-17-05 at 12:02 PM.
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08-29-05, 07:11 AM   #38
Beladona
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The problem here isn't the fact that you are releasing addons for general consumption, nor is it a matter of who else did it first. The general problem that most authors will state as being their main and only cause for concern can be summed up as follows:

Authors should have the right to decide where and when their addons are distributed, as well as when updates are released for those addons. Otherwise they are relying on you to keep all of their addons up to date on your website. No offense, but the author is the ONLY person dilligent enough to keep their own addons updated immediately when such an update is available.

Take this as you will, but maturity dictates that you be responsible for your own actions. If several other websites did the same thing you are doing at inception, shame on them, but it has nothing to do with you. You are basically saying "Everyone else did it, why can't I?" which would be the same thing as saying "I see other people doing drugs, why can't I?" --- what other people did or didn't do does NOT change how wrong or right such an action is, not does it change your contribution or responsibility to such actions.

When you release a service to the public, you open that service up to both praise AND criticism from said public. If you truly mean this as a service to the community, then you will listen to what the community says, and make changes based on that feedback. In that respect, the public has every right to JUDGE what you have done...

When or if someone cries foul about something I provide on my website, I do whatever I can to alleviate those claims or problems. If someone makes a suggestion that they feel would make my site more useful to the community, I do what I can to accomodate it. THIS is what making a website FOR the community means. Otherwise the site is simply something you made as a means to get kudos for yourself, and has nothing to do with serving the community...

Last edited by Beladona : 08-29-05 at 08:25 AM.
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08-29-05, 07:23 AM   #39
Beladona
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The argument was raised that you could or should index other websites. Realize however that this has it's own drawbacks. As it stands now, you give NO credit to any website from which you obtained said addons. Water under the bridge at the moment as the major issue at hand is the rights of the authors more than the rights of the sites the destribute on.

However if you start indexing websites, you could potentially invade the rights of the websites as well.

My suggestion is as follows:

To provide something completely unique to the community (because lets face it, your site is doing something other sites already do, without permission which means you already started on the wrong foot) -- index other mod websites, and provide a list just like you do now of all of those addons. HOWEVER, do not have them as downloads directly from your website. Link to the page on each website where the addon can be found.

As an example:
I go to your site, and search for Ace, (sorry Kaletan, just thought it was a good example) -- and find it of course. When I click on it, it shows a page with basic info about the author, and a list of "mirrors" or sources from which the addon can be found. This means that Kaeltan can update / modify his addons on all the sites where he does so now, but yours stays up to date based on the newest version found from among all the websites. The USER is given the option to download from any of those websites, but upon clicking on the mirror link, he is taken TO the other website and allowed to download it. DO NOT link directly tothe file as this is known as leeching.

I know you mean well, but remember that copyright laws and the rights of the authors IS a real and impending issue. There may not be much we cna do to stop you, but I assure you no one will support your site unless you provide some way for them to begin trusting you and what you do on your site...

Last edited by Beladona : 08-29-05 at 08:22 AM.
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08-29-05, 10:48 AM   #40
noraj
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 102
just FYI as long as you keep em updated i dont care who posts my mods where....just make sure you keep them updated

I can definatly see both sides of the argument and ultimatly wowinterface is right here...but, speaking as myself and only myself you can post em as long as you keep em updated

A search site that provided links to other mod downloads would be awesome then mod authors could upload whereever they wanted and the general public could search and it would returnn results from all major sites(thus only one version upload :P)
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