Why WowMatrix is bad.

[Tristanian]

Originally Posted by goathole Since it seems that a number of addon authors posting in this thread are strongly opposed to wowmatrix, and it's been mentioned a few times that the hosting pages authors submit to (wowinterface, curse, etc) could change the way they generate download links by putting in randomly generated URLs or something of the like, has anyone asked the hosting sites to include a measure of protection against leeching/deep-linking to files like this? I've no idea how much or little work/cost a change of this sort would be, but if the hosting sites want to stop wowmatrix from operating in the way it does, and the people running wowmatrix appear to be unwilling to listen or change the way their program operates, why haven't authors been asking the hosting sites to protect their work by changing the way downloads function to block wowmatrix from leeching? It seems such an obvious question I'm sure there must be an obvious answer, so apologies if I'm derailing the thread by asking how the internet works...

Randomly generated URL's would cause other issues to those of us that also use the SVN here. I guess sites could always request a valid "referrer" but at the end of the day, it would also cause problems for users that don't use updaters. It is not necessary anyway, those of use that care, have already had our addons removed from the updater, after repeated emails. If that means less users using our stuff, then so be it. The world isn't going to stop turning and most of us are not putting up our addons because it's a popularity contest.

Just wanted to let you guys know (if you don't already) that wowmatrix now displays the Author of the addon. I believe they still get the addons from the dev's pages and not their own but at least one part of the problem is solved.

Of course they did, they monitor these discussions anyway and also don't want any problems from authors or users, as that could hurt their "investment". Too little, too late if you ask me.

I'm using WoWMatrix and I still frequently visit the Addon sites. In fact all players I know do. As someone with a job, a family and playing WoW you only have that much time to surf the web, but I still go to Curse, WoWUI, WoWInterface and WoWAce.

If you really believe that all the thousands (if not more) players that use an updater to update more than let's say 20-30 addons, visit those pages more often than once in a blue moon (if at all), then you are mistaken.


And I do agree that the analogies posted were unfortunate and at the end of the day needless. There is indeed no reason to "dumb down" some very simple facts. And yes the thread has run its course and should probably be locked. Everything has been stated, both sides have been heard, we can actually agree to the fact that we are of a different mindset on this particular subject and live happily ever after.

That, or derail this more into a flame...

[Dridzt]

Originally Posted by Elloria You know I really hate to go off subject but I saw this at the start of reading the thread today. I am the one who linked this conversation to the wow forums. I'm sorry I brought someone in that had the wrong idea about this whole thing. I for one thought you guys could explain to this guy he was wrong and do a better job at it. I linked what someone had said because i couldn't have said it better and it brought him here. So yea I guess I am sorry for bringing "the filth" to the forums.

Heh I forgot a '' after that sentence (was already italicized to show that it's an off-topic)

Was meant as a friendly tease ... It could have been "I blame the gnomes" just as well.
I do agree that this thread has run its course though, it can only degenerate.

Next part is what actions the involved parties will take that's of some interest.

[goathole]

Originally Posted by Tristanian Randomly generated URL's would cause other issues to those of us that also use the SVN here. I guess sites could always request a valid "referrer" but at the end of the day, it would also cause problems for users that don't use updaters.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

Originally Posted by Tristanian It is not necessary anyway, those of use that care, have already had our addons removed from the updater, after repeated emails. If that means less users using our stuff, then so be it. The world isn't going to stop turning and most of us are not putting up our addons because it's a popularity contest.

I was under the impression that wowmatrix would remove an author's addon from their list on request, but that if a wowmatrix user had already installed the addon, wowmatrix would still update it. Hopefully I was mistaken about this point.

[Cirk]

More snippet bits from my posts in Recompense's thread over in Blizzard UI and Macros forum for those of you who aren't reading it because of the need for flame retardant...

In regards to the deep linking issue, I found this old (very old in internet terms ;) article which might be of interest - http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/deeplinking.html ("Deep Linking" in the World Wide Web). A summary of the article (in my own words) is that the w3c is not against the concept of deep linking, and argues that access to the content referred to via deep linking is up to the access control mechanisms of the site providing the content to which the deep link references.

I also very much liked the two real world analogies they used (from section 5, "Deep Linking by Analogy"):

Two analogies have been proposed to help illuminate the question of deep linking through parallels in the real world. The first analogy is with buildings, which typically have a number of doors. A building might have a policy that the public may only enter via the main front door, and only during normal working hours. People employed in the building and in making deliveries to it might use other doors as appropriate. Such a policy would be enforced by a combination of security personnel and mechanical devices such as locks and pass-cards. One would not enforce this policy by hiding some of the building entrances, nor by requesting legislation requiring the use of the front door and forbidding anyone to reveal the fact that there are other doors to the building. The second analogy is with a library, which has a well-known street address. Each book on the shelves of this library also has an identifier, composed of its title, author, call number, shelf location, and so on. The library certainly will exercise access control to the individual books; but it would be counterproductive to do so by forbidding the publication of their identities. These analogies are compelling in the context of the deep linking issue. A provider of Web resources who does not make use of the built-in facilities of the Web to control access to a resource is unlikely to achieve either justice or a good business outcome by attempting to suppress information about the existence of the resource.

I'll throw out my thoughts on what this means (to me) from an author's copyright point of view below, but it does seem (to me) to suggest that it is the responsibility of the hosting websites that provide the links to "protect" the access to that content if the require such protection for reasons of revenue, etc.

As an author, I have given WoWInterface the right to provide my addons to the public through their webserver (and the reasons I chose WoWInterface will be many and varied - see any of the arguments put forth by other authors). If another site chooses to deep-link to either the WoWInterface page on which my addon is described, or even direct to the zip file containing my addon, I can either accept this as a normal usage in the web, or request WoWInterface to limit access in some fashion (e.g., downloads only available via access first to the author or addon pages). I'm not sure that I can require another site to remove its link to my work, unless that link in and of itself violates my copyright (e.g., does not correctly attribute the works to me).

Hearkening back to my university years, my recollection of copyright "fair use" required us (as students or researchers) to -always- attribute referenced works - e.g., author name(s) and the source of your referenced content (e.g. page, book title, proceedings, publication information, etc.). I guess for the the latter, the equivalent today (and in the context of addons) would be a web link - and importantly this web link should reference the containing object (web-page), not just the object itself (because that could be considered taking a work out of context, or mis-attributing the source of the information).

In regards to this second point, if WoWMatrix parses pages from a site (such as WoWInterface) to extract from it the links to the actual addons, or even if it just gets this information from an RSS feed directly published by the site, fair use of copyright (both the author's and the hosting site) would arguably require WoWMatrix to properly attribute the source of the links - i.e., you could fairly argue that WoWMatrix -must- attribute the source of the content (i.e., the parent web-page or host site) for the links it provides. This is especially important if there is a commercial involvement (i.e., if they are getting paid, either by customers, advertising, or other means).

Of course I'm not a copyright lawyer/expert/etc., and I'm sure there are holes in all of this, but I can say that I'm (personally) quite happy for services such as the WoWMatrix client provides to exist in principle, -provided that- the the client or tool properly attributes the link to my addons both to me (as the author) and to the source (addon's web page) from which the link was obtained.

(In the case where I directly sent the link to the client or tool service provider, this source reference would not be required).

So far it sounds like we've got half-way there in that WoWMatrix now lists the author's name :)

Recompense wrote:

The argument that WoWMatrix now attributes work doesn't change the fact that they are ignoring the author's intended method of distribution.

I guess what I got from reading the W3C article and thinking about it after is that WoWMatrix -aren't- actually ignoring the author's intended method of distribution (which is via WoWInterface's webserver in my case) since they are indeed still using that distribution -source- (i.e., they still create a HTTP connection to the server to download the addon).

What they aren't doing (yet) is linking to the information that I also want associated with my addons (i.e., the web page itself), but I can't find a valid argument that says "since WoWInterface is allowed to serve my addons (as a zip file) directly via a URL without any access control, no one else is allowed to use that URL without my permission", since I don't have any rights over the URL itself.

And yes, this is where we stray into the (eek) quagmire of author's rights etc., which I'm definitely not able to give a qualified comment on, even as an interested author!

There is another analogy I can think of which will probably just muddy the waters even further - as far as i know, an author/owner of a work does not have the right to suppress/limit/etc., valid comment on their works (e.g., a newspaper can do an article on your works without so much as a "by your leave", and can even do so against your explicit wishes). And in that context, is a web link to the location of said author's work simply a form of "comment", or ?

Note I'm not saying there aren't potentially legal issues here (e.g., author and site provider copyrights, whether the download manager tools violate the site EULAs as others have noted, etc.), just that -I'm- not so sure now that "deep linking" alone is a violation of the author's copyright, provided the source has been properly attributed (which it isn't quite yet, IMO).

All food for thought...

-- Cirk

[Phanx]

Originally Posted by Meldas My Google-Fu is better than yours: there is also http://wuu.vagabonds.info/menu.php - another one which causes more problems than it solves. There is also a handful of other updaters which only work for a subset of Addon sites. They all have flaws (well http://code.google.com/p/macaceupdater/ did work very well, but the author has quit supporting it). I guess you don't own a Mac otherwise you would know that there is currently only one good alternative.

I linked JWU because I have used it in the past to update from files.wowace.com and knew that it supports updating from other major addon sites. You posted, essentially, "I can't find any multi-site updater that works on the Mac other than WoWMatrix". I linked one such updater. If you expected me to be able to read your mind over the Internet and know that you'd already tried JWU and several other updaters and somehow decided that they weren't "multi-site updaters that work on the Mac", I'm sorry to have disappointed you, but there's no need to be an ass about it.

Originally Posted by Meldas Especially Raid-Addons are updated nearly daily. If you ever wiped your raid (24 pissed of people in the TS) because you had an old version installed, you are going to check them before each raid, believe me.

Threat-2.0 (the backend calculation engine of Omen) is the only example of an addon whose performance is degraded if you do not constantly update to the latest revision. That said, I have never wiped my raid due to having an outdated addon, because I actually know how to play the game without relying on addons. I use addons because they make things more convenient, not because I need them to play the game.

Originally Posted by Meldas So you want me to read through 70 changelogs before I decide to download an Addon each day? *shrug*

No, and I don't know where you got the impression that I wanted you to read 70 changelogs before downloading one addon. I certainly never said that.

Originally Posted by Meldas It's the distribution site together with the authors which provide those minimal and sometimes unnecessary updates for free. Is it allowed to download these updates? Yes. Each one of them? Yes. A solution would be to only make major updates available to the public.

Which, if you'd bothered to actually read my post, you'd know is the solution that's already been implemented. You will no longer see 12 updates to BigWigs every day, because someone changing one character in the Korean translation for the Doomwalker module will no longer generate an updated file for you to download. You will only see an update when the addon's author explicitly flags a specific revision as a public version.

Originally Posted by Meldas Ok, there already was a lengthy answer to this analogy and its little inaccuracies. I might add: This generous gallery is paying the shipment costs for FedEx and UPS. And all of their prints cost nothing (however they seem to get some money elsewhere - but they don't tell me)! Are they nice? Or ... stupid? Then, I always have to walk to them whenever I wish to get a picture and I want a lot of them! That's not very convenient.

You're taking the analogy too far, and making laughably irrelevant arguments. You don't walk anywhere on the Internet. The only remotely reasonable form of your argument would be "the first gallery uses too much packaging and it takes me 30 seconds longer to unwrap the things they send me."

Originally Posted by Meldas As was already said: This second gallery gets the prints from the first gallery. In other words: You still have the same control over the distribution of your prints. If you don't want me to get them, you just have to remove them from the first gallery.

I'm fairly certain that in the real world, I would absolutely have the legal right to demand that the second gallery stop distributing my prints, even if they did so by dropping them in the mail bin of the first gallery.

Originally Posted by Meldas Btw this second gallery is much more comfortable than the first one. It also provides prints from other galleries which are also very nice! Oh, I love those pictures! Did I already tell you the story from the artist which told me: "You don't need that many pictures! And I don't care if you have a convenient way to get the pictures!".

No, but the artist absolutely has the right to not care if you do or do not have a convenient way to get his pictures. I don't release addons with the intention of getting as many people as possible to use my addon. I'd rather have only 5 people use my addon because it's only available on WoWInterface, than have 5000 people use my addon because they can get it through WoWMatrix.

Originally Posted by Meldas That's wrong. The first gallery pays the postage. They pay it when I get the prints directly from them and they pay it when I get the prints from the second gallery. The argument that the second gallery is avoiding any postage is null and void. The second gallery invokes a FedEx or UPS shipment for me directly from the first gallery. Nice guys, and all for free. The only argument that you have here is that I may order more prints than usual because it's so easy to do in the second gallery.

Yes, and that's the problem. The first gallery in Boston didn't consent to pay the extra postage to ship extra prints to customers of the second gallery in Los Angeles.

[Patchumz]

I understand the hate for this program and the reasoning behind not using it, but until you can find us something equal or better as a replacement, It's not worth checking every site for all 30-60 Addons you may have to update.

[Meldas]

Originally Posted by Tristanian That, or derail this more into a flame...

I agree. I think I have made my point clear (and some other people here are already starting to get personal after running out of arguments).

I'm also in full concordance to what Cirk said.

[*GdaW* Stimpy]

Hiii guys,
I red many of the posts here and I can understand both sides. First the authors side, we as end users think that you the authors were asked to publish or update your addon´s via WOW Matrix. When this isn´t the case it is not okay. But I tried many of the updater Tools out there and this one is the easiest to use, most actual one. I already tried the WOW Interface updater but this one doesn´t work at all. The one from BLASC isn´t really up to date ant the one from curse won´t work , too.
So maybe it is possible to contact the authors of WOW Matrix to work together ?!?!? It is the best updater I know. But when you tell me another one which has the same fuctionallity I am open minded to change the Tool.

So please don´t missunderstand my words. I know what all authors of AddOn out there mean, but if a user wants to keep the AddOns up to date it is necessary to use an updater tool.

[Yhor]

Terribly sorry to keep this going...

First, I've asked people who use my websites to not recommend Wowmatrix for the reasons already mentioned. Some still do, but I voice my opinion of wowmatrix loud and clear.

I do have a question about accessing the download links of addons here on WoWI though. Is it possible to require a log in in order to view addons or download addons (or both); would this be able to stop wowmatrix from accessing the files (and essentially stealing your bandwidth)?

As a user I do not have any problem with manually updating all of the addons I use (I use Mazzleui btw, which to my knowledge is the highest maintenance compilation out there). I think the lack of respect and support for authors (and hosts) is retarded (to put it in terms 'they' can understand), I'd hope that all authors could see fit to request their work to be removed from wowmatrix.

Thanks for writing these addons and hosting them, it isn't as unappreciated as you'd think.

[Phanx]

Originally Posted by Patchumz I understand the hate for this program and the reasoning behind not using it, but until you can find us something equal or better as a replacement, It's not worth checking every site for all 30-60 Addons you may have to update.

Manual updating doesn't in any way require checking sites for updates. All the major release sites have a "favorites" feature and an "email me when a favorite is updated" feature. Used in conjunction, these features mean you will get a direct download link in your email when an addon is updated. As the old wowace site with its dozens of "updates" every day is history now, this will not flood your email with dozens of messages. I use about 150 addons, about 80 of which are hosted here on WoWInterface, and I'd say on average I see one update every three days. If you're using WotLK-only addons on the beta servers, you'll probably see a few more updates as these addons are still under development in response to Blizzard's game changes.

Or, you could use one of the half-dozen or so other updater programs that do not profit from leeching bandwidth and distributing addons without explicit author opt-in or explicit user instruction. For example, with JWoWUpdater, you'd spend maybe 15 minutes, one time, inputting the addons you wanted to keep updated, and from then on you'd just click the "Update" button to check for and download any available updates to those addons.

[Dreadlorde]

Originally Posted by Patchumz I understand the hate for this program and the reasoning behind not using it, but until you can find us something equal or better as a replacement, It's not worth checking every site for all 30-60 Addons you may have to update.

JWoWUpdater, Phanx has said that I don't even remember how many times now.

[Seerah]

Some quotes for you guys from the first page of this thread. Either you've forgotten that they've been said, or you haven't read the first page.

Originally Posted by Cairenn Our stance on WoWMatrix is pretty well summed up in the reasons why we *won't* do stuff with our updater.

That linked thread says this:

Originally Posted by Cairenn It was intended as gentle teasing. Hence the silly tongue-sticking-out smilie. No undermining of efforts detected, no worries. No, we won't be pulling from other sites for a couple of reasons: a) that is violation of author copyright (redistribution) - if they want us to be able to distribute their mods for them, they upload here; b) because the authors aren't uploading to it themselves it isn't current, so authors get users b!tching at them about bugs that they've already fixed and users are getting old versions that may have problems; c) you don't go pulling from someone else's site without their permission (see a), plus the fact that it takes away their page views and ad impressions, all of which are big no nos. Other apps do these things, but we won't. I know it is less than convenient for our users, for which I'm sorry, but to do otherwise wouldn't be moral, ethical or legal. Sorry. =/

Yes, we have tried to circumvent their theft. So has Curse, etc.

Originally Posted by Seerah Not to mention that when an effort is made to circumvent their theft, they find another brute force way to haxxor in and steal it.

We do not endorse the other cross-site updaters, either, but:

Originally Posted by Seerah There are other cross-site updaters which are more reputable and respectful than wowmatrix.

Yes, we do have our own site updater. No, it's not 100% in the way of what people would like it to be. That's why it is going to be rewritten.

I'm sad to come back from a weekend at BlizzCon to see a thread full of flames, people not caring about author or hosting site rights, and users too blind to see what the ease of using wowmatrix actually costs the authors and hosting sites it leeches from. I also agree that this thread has run its course. We are not finished trying to protect our downloads (yes, we have been trying to prevent wowmatrix from accessing them, as noted in a quote above), but we would also like to do it in a way so as not to inconvenience our users.