Dear Compilation Authors

StormFX · 11-08-08, 07:32 PM

Please read any included text files and/or license files included with add-ons that you include in your compilations before you include them. Some have restrictions on inclusion/redistribution.

Edit: This is not an attempt to be an ass, but there's a LOT of compilations that are including add-ons, etc, that aren't supposed to be.

rcdyer1984 · 11-08-08, 07:49 PM

This is only a suggestion, but I hope you consider it.

Make an actual statement on your download page that you do not want your plugins to be redistributed without your permission.

Generally if I see a text document named "readme" inside of a zip folder, I am going to assume it is instructions or something along those lines.

If you don't want to include a statement on your download pages (for some odd reason) then at least name your text file something that is a bit less obscure.

I dunno, "Redistribution Policy" or something...

On a side note, I am failing to see the issue with having Ui designers use your plugins in their uploads, especially if they list their addon credits or post a picture like they are required to do anyway. I would imagine you would want as much exposure to your work as possible.

Anyway, your skins are very nice, keep up the great design work.

<3
Ish

StormFX · 11-08-08, 09:46 PM

Make an actual statement on your download page that you do not want your plugins to be redistributed without your permission.

I might just do that.

Generally if I see a text document named "readme" inside of a zip folder, I am going to assume it is instructions or something along those lines.

So the text "ReadMe" isn't a hint?

Don't assume!

On a side note, I am failing to see the issue with having Ui designers use your plugins in their uploads, especially if they list their addon credits or post a picture like they are required to do anyway. I would imagine you would want as much exposure to your work as possible.

Because I stated specifically that they're not to be included without permission. That's enough reason, IMO. Like I said, I'm not trying to be an ass, but the least people could do is ask permission first. That's all.

Anyway, your skins are very nice, keep up the great design work.

Thanks.

Cralor · 11-08-08, 09:47 PM

I respect your views, but can I ask why? I'd like to know your reasoning behind this.

StormFX · 11-08-08, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Cralor

I respect your views, but can I ask why? I'd like to know your reasoning behind this.

Because.

Honestly, I don't even like the whole compilation thing. It's really easy to get out-of-date files and then the users come and ***** at the add-on authors. Besides, I like to know who's including my stuff in with theirs.

Cralor · 11-08-08, 10:00 PM

There is 2 sides to a "compilation" there are those that just post a bunch of addons they like (which I have not seen very lately) and then there is ones that have there own art, designs, etc. These are the "true" compilations and what they are meant for.

This is going to take a lot of work.

Explicitly tell your users to get permission from you first. (Or do you not want it in ANY compilations whatsoever?)

P.S.: I'd like to ask permission now while I update all the "Deuce" compilations.

(Actually, I currently can't use ButtonFacade because the art is still using cycircled and I don't know how to port it over. Do you think you could help?)

StormFX · 11-08-08, 10:03 PM

This is going to take a lot of work. Explicitly tell your users to get permission from you first.

No, it's already done. That's what the ReadMe.txt is for.

(Or do you not want it in ANY compilations whatsoever?)

I just want people to ask first. If it's that big a deal, there's always the alternative of not using them all.

P.S.: I'd like to ask permission now while I update all the "Deuce" compilations.

Done.

For the record: For my files, this only applies to originals. IE Apathy, Entropy, Onyx, Caith, etc. The others (Serenity, Gears, LiteStep, etc) are simply ports to BF and don't require permission, though they may have the ReadMe file in there. I had to revamp my SVN directory and did a bunch of copy/pasting (FTL).

Cralor · 11-08-08, 10:10 PM

Oh, okay. That is nice to know for the future

So it there a good tutorial on how to port over? I've read the wiki (I believe), but I am not experienced enough in art to know what to do in the changes of the art part.

Do you have any advice? :P

Thanks

rcdyer1984 · 11-08-08, 11:22 PM

I might just do that.

I hope you do.

So the text "ReadMe" isn't a hint?

Don't assume!

In all honesty, no it isn't. It is obviously of great importance to you that people ask permission before they incorporate your skins into a compilation they upload. While this is completely understandable, if it is of such great importance, one would imagine that you would have made the knowledge a bit more noticable. I think we can both agree that when installing add-ons, nobody generally reads the readme texts unless they are having technical difficulties.
I hardly think you could argue that. So, if you would demand of every single person who used a skin of yours to ask permission before uploading their ui for others to be inspired by, then may I ask, what difference does it make? Are you ever going to tell someone no? I hardly doubt it. And if that were the case, what is the difference between you telling everyone yes and them just giving you credit for the work in their upload? I really don't see your logic in this.

Because I stated specifically that they're not to be included without permission. That's enough reason, IMO. Like I said, I'm not trying to be an ass, but the least people could do is ask permission first. That's all.

It doesn't matter if you are trying or not, you are coming across as an ass either way. But I would imagine it is easily remedied by you simply stating on each download page that you would like people to send you a personal message asking if they can use each of your skins in their compilations. And btw, I would also imagine that its generally accepted here that giving credit where credit is due suffices rather than bothering the mod author about being able to use his/her addon. Its pretty much expected that everyone is nice enough here to allow free sharing of their work so as to easily inspire others.

Thanks.

Your welcome, sadly your attitude on the matter has discouraged me from continuing to use your skins in any of my previous or future compilations. Therefor I will now need to create my own which I will allow others to use freely.

Best of luck to you in resolving this matter how ever you see fit.

-Ish

StormFX · 11-09-08, 12:07 AM

So it there a good tutorial on how to port over? I've read the wiki (I believe), but I am not experienced enough in art to know what to do in the changes of the art part.

Do you have any advice? :P

I've been meaning to write up a tutorial on TGA files, etc, and how to do the individual layers so they work right with BF, but I've been busy. What are you trying to port to BF?

In all honesty, no it isn't.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

I think we can both agree that when installing add-ons, nobody generally reads the readme texts unless they are having technical difficulties.

Before I even open up any file in any add-on directory, I check the license and read-me files. /shrug

So, if you would demand of every single person who used a skin of yours to ask permission before uploading their ui for others to be inspired by, then may I ask, what difference does it make? Are you ever going to tell someone no? I hardly doubt it. And if that were the case, what is the difference between you telling everyone yes and them just giving you credit for the work in their upload? I really don't see your logic in this.

Who says there has to be logic? If it's of my creation, it's my right to do as I want with it. I upload to WoWInterface for people to download directly, not for others to redistribute it.

But I would imagine it is easily remedied by you simply stating on each download page that you would like people to send you a personal message asking if they can use each of your skins in their compilations.

We've discussed this.

And btw, I would also imagine that its generally accepted here that giving credit where credit is due suffices rather than bothering the mod author about being able to use his/her addon. Its pretty much expected that everyone is nice enough here to allow free sharing of their work so as to easily inspire others.

I'm sorry, not everyone subscribes to the whole "Copy-Left", "If it's on the Internet it's everyone's" philosophy. And there's a difference between using it and redistributing it.

Additionally, not every compilation author credits the author of every single add-on that's included in their compilation. As far as the average user knows, the compilation author is the author of the entire package. Going back to who reads what, do you really think the users read all of the credits even if they're complete?

And then there's stats. How am I supposed to track the stats of my add-ons when some of the traffic is pulled away by those who prefer compilations?

Your welcome, sadly your attitude on the matter has discouraged me from continuing to use your skins in any of my previous or future compilations.

Well, that's too bad. I was looking forward to my first "No."

/teasing

But seriously, I'm sorry if my attitude bothers you. Perhaps in the future I'll think twice about offering my work to others to use for free.

rcdyer1984 · 11-09-08, 12:32 AM

Who says there has to be logic? If it's of my creation, it's my right to do as I want with it. I upload to WoWInterface for people to download directly, not for others to redistribute it.

And last time I checked, people don't usually put other people's names on something that is "their creation." For example, copying Caith's design for a skin and calling it your own. I hope you checked her zip for a readme file.

I'm sorry, not everyone subscribes to the whole "Copy-Left", "If it's on the Internet it's everyone's" philosophy. And there's a difference between using it and redistributing it.

I didn't say anything that remotely resembled your above statement. I only said you're being illogical, which you already confessed to so I guess /end point.

Additionally, not every compilation author credits the author of every single add-on that's included in their compilation. As far as the average user knows, the compilation author is the author of the entire package. Going back to who reads what, do you really think the users read all of the credits even if they're complete?

Its WowInterface rules that every single compilation must list every addon or provide a screenshot of all addons used in the compilation. A simple google search could tell you the author of any particular addon. Also by WowInterface rules, only Interfaces found under the SUITES category are made up of addons that have been solely created by the uploader. So if a person finds a compilation under any other category its pretty much common sense that they didn't write all the addons. But since we threw logic out the window a while back, why not common sense too eh?

And then there's stats. How am I supposed to track the stats of my add-ons when some of the traffic is pulled away by those who prefer compilations?

So make a compilation. But don't forget to ask yourself for permission before you upload it.

But seriously, I'm sorry if my attitude bothers you. Perhaps in the future I'll think twice about offering my work to others to use for free.

Your attitude has no effect on me personally at all. It just saddens me that this website has good mod designers that are more concerned with how many downloads they get rather than how many people their work can inspire.
By no means am I saying remove your work, however I doubt you would because you like seeing the download number go up, I am saying however that you should let loose a bit on the redistribution thing. This is Ui design for fun...for a game, its not like anyone is doing any of this to make money.

Anyway, as I said before, you do good work, keep it up.

-Ish

StormFX · 11-09-08, 02:09 AM

For example, copying Caith's design for a skin and calling it your own. I hope you checked her zip for a readme file.

The original Caith was a modified version of Vol. My version of Caith is a recreation (from screen shots, nonetheless), not a copy.

I only said you're being illogical, which you already confessed to so I guess /end point.

Did I? Interesting conclusion.

But since we threw logic out the window a while back, why not common sense too eh?

There's common sense in one of your posts?

Your attitude has no effect on me personally at all.

Obviously.

I am saying however that you should let loose a bit on the redistribution thing. This is Ui design for fun...for a game, its not like anyone is doing any of this to make money.

My "restrictions" are loose. Ask my permission first. If that's a problem for you, use something else. And yeah, it's a game. For fun. But you know what? It's my time and effort that was put into them.

Kleo · 11-09-08, 02:29 AM

I had written up a whole rationalisation with examples and stuff, but bottom line is if you create work, and it belongs to you, it's yours to demand how it be distributed. It's not enough to say "so and so created it." If that person has included a file that says "You need my permission to redistribute it" then you'd damn well better get their permission to redistribute it. Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Why would you think someone should shove it in your face when they've made all the tools available to you?

Not following the author's published wishes in that regard is theft. And if it's too much trouble to take a look at a readme before redistributing it under your name, then shame on you.

Zyonin · 11-09-08, 03:12 AM

Regarding the ReadMe file. I actually do open those, however 99.9% that file is either instructions on how to install or other technical info such as "If you see this error than this happened..." and so on. Its been this way for as far back as I have been using PCs and freeware/shareware software (which has been a very long time indeed). Yes, I am a grizzled old geek who cut his teeth on DOS and BASIC (on old IBM-ATs and Apple IIes).

As a consequence, when ever I put together a package of mods for others (lately only a few for my guild for those who don't know were to find the mod in question), I use descriptive names for the "ReadMe" file such as "Instructions for Installation" or "How to install". The name README is a hold over from the old DOS/FAT-16 days when you were limited to 8 characters or less in your file names.

I am more likely to pay attention to a license ReadMe if it was named as such as, since ReadMe is overused so much, it tends to get missed. Use terms like "License" or similar. That way there is no ambiguity AND if you find someone infringing on your work, you can easily point to it as opposed to saying its in the third paragraph of the ReadMe that 90% (yes its roughly that, years of tech support backs this up, that number may be higher

)of users never read in the first place. I do read all of the text files in my AddOns, but then again, I am not an "average" user since I tend to hack on those AddOns (either to fix errors I find, or to tweak to taste).

Cralor · 11-09-08, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by StormFX

I've been meaning to write up a tutorial on TGA files, etc, and how to do the individual layers so they work right with BF, but I've been busy. What are you trying to port to BF?

CyCircled_Deuce

rcdyer1984 · 11-09-08, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Kleo

If that person has included a file that says "You need my permission to redistribute it" then you'd damn well better get their permission to redistribute it.

The OP and I have already agreed that this is true and that the gray area lies in how "obvious" a place that the author should post this information.

Originally Posted by Kleo

Ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking it. Why would you think someone should shove it in your face when they've made all the tools available to you?

Actually, it is. Example. You are driving from point A to point B. There are no speed limit signs. A cop pulls you over for speeding. Are you going to have to pay the ticket? No. (This has happened to me lol.) And I didn't say anything about shoving things in people's faces, I only said that the emphasis on his request should reflect how important the request is to him.

And if it's too much trouble to take a look at a readme before redistributing it under your name, then shame on you.

The uploaders of compilations that are not filed under the suites category don't redistribute addons under their own name. I don't understand how that is a confusing concept for you.

rcdyer1984 · 11-09-08, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Lykofos

Regarding the ReadMe file. I actually do open those, however 99.9% that file is either instructions on how to install or other technical info such as "If you see this error than this happened..." and so on. Its been this way for as far back as I have been using PCs and freeware/shareware software (which has been a very long time indeed). Yes, I am a grizzled old geek who cut his teeth on DOS and BASIC (on old IBM-ATs and Apple IIes).

As a consequence, when ever I put together a package of mods for others (lately only a few for my guild for those who don't know were to find the mod in question), I use descriptive names for the "ReadMe" file such as "Instructions for Installation" or "How to install". The name README is a hold over from the old DOS/FAT-16 days when you were limited to 8 characters or less in your file names.

I am more likely to pay attention to a license ReadMe if it was named as such as, since ReadMe is overused so much, it tends to get missed. Use terms like "License" or similar. That way there is no ambiguity AND if you find someone infringing on your work, you can easily point to it as opposed to saying its in the third paragraph of the ReadMe that 90% (yes its roughly that, years of tech support backs this up, that number may be higher

)of users never read in the first place. I do read all of the text files in my AddOns, but then again, I am not an "average" user since I tend to hack on those AddOns (either to fix errors I find, or to tweak to taste).

QFT

Anyway, this will be my last post. Not to be misunderstood. I totally agree that an author has full rights to his creations and reserves the right to require people to ask permission before redistributing his work. However, if that request is of such great importance, just make it more easily known that it is something you would prefer people do. If only to save yourself and other people the headaches.

Have a good day all.