@ Cairren, WoWI and the nUI community...

[spiel2001]

BS.

I'm confounded by this reaction.

1) I am still distributing nUI for free. Both here and at Curse
2) even if I did take it private, I still offer people three ways to get nUI for free.
3) I *just* openly made the offer to reconsider my stance and keep nUI public here: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=48666

I am *NOT* in violation of Blizzard's policy. nUI *IS* still freely available.

This is the reaction I get? I offer to donate everything about nUI if the community will show some support and instead I get shut down.

Do as you may. I have no control over what you choose to do. I have long appreciated the forum you gave me here at WoWI and I regret its come to this. I think you're dead wrong, but that's your call to make.

All the same, I wish you all best best. I'm sorry it came to this. It didn't have to.

[spiel2001]

I'd like to follow up with a final statement...

WoWInterface.com and the rest of the MMOUI sites would not exists were it not for the sweat equity and passion of the addon authors who create the addons that this web site and others like it distribute.

Every single penny of advertisement revenue and every single donation these sites generates for their owners is created on the backs of the addon authors who contribute their work product to these sites. Every cent of profit these sites earn, every penny of every paycheck paid to every employee of these sites was earned as a direct result of the work product of the authors who provide the addons you distribute.

I guarantee you that every check paid to the staff of these sites is larger than the sum of money all of the addons authors on these sites, combined, make in the same period.

Similarly, nearly every user interface enhancement that has been made to World of Warcraft since its vanilla days was, at one time or another, the idea of an addon author. Countless WoW players play this game with addons because it enhances their game experience. Many would not play the game were it not for those addons. Blizzard, too, has profited greatly from the ideas, the creativity and the community the addon authors have created.

Yet, the addon authors are prohibited from profiting from their work in a fair market. Both Blizzard and the sites such as WoWI profit from our labors while simultaneously demanding that we give everything of our efforts away without even the right to control who uses our software or the right to ask for fair compensation for our effort.

When WoWI removes all advertisements from its sites, and is only permitted to ask for donations on Blizzard's web site, I will accept their support for the model they back addon authors having to adhere to. When Blizzard removes the monthly fee for World of Warcraft and only advertises for donations on Microsoft's web site, I will accept their admonition that I am not allowed to seek compensation for my time and effort.

If I should be happy doing this for no other reason than my ego, then so too should WoW Interface and Blizzard. Of course, neither does.

nUI has nearly 800,000 downloads here on WoWI. There are over 30,000 posts in its forums with who knows how many imprints over the years that nUI has been hosted here. There are over 36,000 people in the "nUI+ User Group" on this site and who knows how many others who use nUI without being a part of that group. nUI has profited WoWI greatly over the years and I have always been respectful of both WoWI and the user base.

To be singled out for telling the truth that there's a growing number of abusive asshats in the gamer community and banished for having done so is pathetic. I said nothing of the good people of this community, the nUI community or gaming in general. I spoke directly to those who are rude, crude and abusive... and to imply that they don't exist is to delude yourself.

Unless and until good people are willing to stand up to those who would abuse others, we are doomed to decay. I will not be a part of that.

Frankly, I say emphatically that Blizzard and WoWI both are being two faced and hypocritical in the extreme. While simultaneously seeking to make it as difficult as possible for addon authors to freely market their work, they profit from it. While chastising me for my (paraphrasing) "bad behavior" they are coddling and perpetuating the bad behavior of others.

As much as I'm being told that I should have to suck it up and accept the rude behavior of certain elements of they user community so that the silent "good users" are not being punished, they are doing the exact same thing... WoWI closing these forums and Blizzard threatening to block nUI because of "rule violations" (again paraphrasing) punishes all of the good nUI users because of the "bad behavior" of one person.

Pot meet kettle.

So be it. WoWI has made up its mind. Blizzard will do what Blizzard's going to do. I have no control over it. In spite of the fact that I uploaded free copies to both WoWI and Curse not two days ago, in spite of the fact that I have said time and time again that there are several ways for people to get nUI for free and in spite of the fact that I have repeatedly stated that my only intent was to limit the access to nUI from people who are abusive to me, this is the result.

I can do nothing about that.

[laisydayla]

Let me go on record as one who has played WoW since the vanilla days and has seen a HUGE shift in game experience over the years. When I first started playing WoW, the community was one of friendship and helping one another achieve success. Teamwork was the name of the game. You built friendships, you leveled your character and you joined guilds. Joining a guild created a sense of community that has been lost over the years. When new raids came out, we all raided in BG gear, because crafted epics were still considered quality gear at that time (another thing that has been changed that I think takes away from the community of the game) and none of us could afford crafted gear and we hadnt gotten our raiding epics yet so we used BG gear, affectionately termed "ghetto epics." Since WoW has grown in popularity, two major changes have occurred that, in my opinion, have destroyed the game. The first was the loss of community. When the servers were opened up the need to join a guild really became a thing of the past because people can now raid LFG their entire playing career and never really need a guild. That destroyed something that was key to WoW being a good game. The other thing that happened was the increase of children playing the game. Vanilla days consisted of a lot more adults playing than kids and over the last 5 - 6 years, that has changed greatly and now there are a lot more kids playing. Modern children live a life of privilege that those of us over 30 cannot comprehend and they have no values, morals or character. As a result, they treat people with absolutely no respect and that is now rampant across the community of WoW and has slowly chipped away at the sense of community and friendship that was so prevalent in vanilla days and now with the LFG change, that community has been obliterated. Unfortunately, Scott has gotten caught up in that change simply by trying to stand up for himself, as is his right by the way, and the result has been heartbreaking to watch as one who has supported his efforts both morally and from time to time financially over the years. All Scott has tried to do is attempt to maintain that sense of community that was once so prevalent in the game of WoW within his own environment of development and he has been called on the carpet for it as though he had thrown a temper tantrum, picked up his toys and gone home, which he has NOT done!! I have read every email he has written since this entire ridiculousness got started and he has been very clear, very concise and very professional the entire time. He has not demanded everyone pay for his addon, (which is ALSO his right, I might add!!) he has simply asked that those who have supported his efforts in the past and been a positive force in the development life of nUI sign up for a new list so that he can sort the wheat from the chaff.

Have any one of you people who have ripped Scott's heart open considered the vast amount of time and effort Scott has freely given over the last eight years? People make good money doing what he does for FREE!! In any other realm of society, he would be charging good money to PROFIT for his efforts because as a developer, that is his right, it's his product that he developed on his own!! Yet by standing up for himself he has apparently committed the cardinal sin in this community and he hasnt even hinted that he will be charging for nUI by moving it over to a private forum. In fact, he has offered that any donations that are made be given over to a charity organization!! I think everyone at Blizzard and at WOWI and Curse owe Scott and other developers like him a HUGE debt of gratitude because if it were not for developers like Scott, WOWI and Curse wouldnt even exist, but instead of supporting him, you have chosen to cut him out of the community all together. I am appalled by the reaction of this site. I used to think this site was the best addon site there was. I will rethink that should I ever return to playing WoW in the future, which at this point I'm not sure I will do since it seems the community has only gotten worse since I left last year.

If I were Scott, I'd simply walk away and not deal with this emotional deluge anymore and take my 36,000 users with me. But he has not done that, he has continued to try to work through the misunderstandings and problems to receive even more misunderstanding and abuse. This site has lost my support and I hope the other users of nUI that have been there over the years walk away from WOWI as well.

[Doubleosix]

It is so sad to see that such a war can start over nothing. To me nUI has been a must have from the first appearance. The man did a wonderful job of it at a time when he was down and out. He has never required payment for this add on, and I feel just like any body else, he would like a few bucks for a job well done, he would also like some return for his effort. Even though one can understand that WOW does not want people riding on their coat tails, or extorting the players, I can not see why it is such a big deal if some one does receive a few bucks. This whole thing is a series of misunderstandings and a couple of rude and ungrateful people mouthing off.

If you do not like him and his opinions, leave, you are free to do so. If you like him and his work, stay. Throw a few bucks his way, say thank you and go play WOW.

[chuckcxr]

How illiterate or ignorant are some of these clowns???
Spiel's said it's still going to have FREE access still for months now and even uploaded updates a couple days ago.
If you're too lazy to write him a quick 10 second email for access, then you don't deserve the add-on that he's slaved away at for years and is hands down one of the most comprehensive and great to use adding available, and I've tried me all and been playing since vanilla.

And either Cairenn is just blunder-fully ignorant or just flat out lying, their thread is completely untrue.
There are multiple ways to get F
REE access to the add-on still, that only take a few seconds, including wow matrix and curse. In either case Cairenn's blind and irrational jump to false judgment is extremely unprofessional and not what you'd hope to see from an admin.
It just simply isn't true.

[Tegerian]

To be quite honest, I do not see any reason for Scott to apologize to anyone for his decision. His emails were not invitations to donate to extremist groups, so if you do not want to donate then do not donate, that is as much of a reaction as is necessary. There is no valid reason for someone to attack a person simply because of their suggesting a potential candidate for charitable donations. This is especially true when the person in question has provided you with an invaluable tool, free of charge for years, while patiently responding to an assortment of criticism and requests relating to his product.

Additionally, the attitude of the WOW Interface Staff in their announcement of the NUI forums closing was akin to the mentality of indulgent parents who hold dogs and other victims of their spoiled children’s torment responsible for eventually biting them. To make it perfectly clear, there is no societal or business rule that demands a person stand-by calmly, smiling like an idiot while people hurl abuse at them. Actions have consequences, and while the internet might provide you the anonymity to behave like a giant tool if you choose, it does not render you immune to all of the consequences.

Therefore, we should be talking about the behavior of the self-entitled cretins who feel it is acceptable to treat Scott as if he were an indentured servant that exists only for the furtherance of their enjoyment, instead of treating Scott like a pariah for simply standing up for himself.

As initially stated, I fail to see what Scott has to apologize for, and I would suggest that WOW Interface and the rest of the critics take a white-hot fireplace poker and shove their request for an apology up the furthest reaches of their lower orifices.


Steve

[Marauder_IIc]

Originally Posted by laisydayla Let me go on record as one who has played WoW since the vanilla days and has seen a HUGE shift in game experience over the years. When I first started playing WoW, the community was one of friendship and helping one another achieve success. Teamwork was the name of the game. You built friendships, you leveled your character and you joined guilds. Joining a guild created a sense of community that has been lost over the years. When new raids came out, we all raided in BG gear, because crafted epics were still considered quality gear at that time (another thing that has been changed that I think takes away from the community of the game) and none of us could afford crafted gear and we hadnt gotten our raiding epics yet so we used BG gear, affectionately termed "ghetto epics." Since WoW has grown in popularity, two major changes have occurred that, in my opinion, have destroyed the game. The first was the loss of community. When the servers were opened up the need to join a guild really became a thing of the past because people can now raid LFG their entire playing career and never really need a guild. That destroyed something that was key to WoW being a good game. The other thing that happened was the increase of children playing the game. Vanilla days consisted of a lot more adults playing than kids and over the last 5 - 6 years, that has changed greatly and now there are a lot more kids playing. Modern children live a life of privilege that those of us over 30 cannot comprehend and they have no values, morals or character. As a result, they treat people with absolutely no respect and that is now rampant across the community of WoW and has slowly chipped away at the sense of community and friendship that was so prevalent in vanilla days and now with the LFG change, that community has been obliterated. Unfortunately, Scott has gotten caught up in that change simply by trying to stand up for himself, as is his right by the way, and the result has been heartbreaking to watch as one who has supported his efforts both morally and from time to time financially over the years. All Scott has tried to do is attempt to maintain that sense of community that was once so prevalent in the game of WoW within his own environment of development and he has been called on the carpet for it as though he had thrown a temper tantrum, picked up his toys and gone home, which he has NOT done!! I have read every email he has written since this entire ridiculousness got started and he has been very clear, very concise and very professional the entire time. He has not demanded everyone pay for his addon, (which is ALSO his right, I might add!!) he has simply asked that those who have supported his efforts in the past and been a positive force in the development life of nUI sign up for a new list so that he can sort the wheat from the chaff.

^^^^^^ THIS!
This is the problem IMHO. I see it all the time in every area, not just gaming. But when every kid (talking maturity, not chronological age) has no concern of any sort of repurcussion, AND a soap box to stand on to scream obsenities from in complete anonimity this crap happens. READ WHAT THE MAN SAYS, you can still get it for FREE.
Aside form that, laisydayla is completely correct about the destruction of community. The children have REALLY dragged things down, also, that the game has become an order of magnitude easier over the years doesn't help that either. I still play, just not with the gusto I used to. It doesn't have the draw it used to as the challenge has diminished, the options have been reduced, AND the volume of screaming children has been increased. And this kind of behavior to someone who offers their work for free is just a byproduct of what Blizzard has done so far and the unfortunate turn society is taking.

Sad.... just sad.
Scott, myself and MANY others in the community are still behind you.

[Dridzt]

Don't presume to speak for authors in general, you definitely don't speak for me and I'll leave it at that for now.

[Haleth]

Regardless of your opinion on this matter, please keep it civil and refrain from insulting others (that includes calling names) over subjects like these. There's no need for that and it's counter-productive.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Haleth Regardless of your opinion on this matter, please keep it civil and refrain from insulting others (that includes calling names) over subjects like these. There's no need for that and it's counter-productive.

This ^

This conversation is, in large part, about being civil and standing up against those who are not. Please be respectful of that.

[Alianin]

Scott, thank you for standing up to the cyber bullies of our gaming community. I empathize and stand with your desire to create a safe community that does not support such abusive and disruptive behavior. I'm saddened that others can't seem to understand this simple concept or are the ones that caused this issue in the first place. I hope that this all can be resolved quickly and without further heartache. Thank you for all your hard work on nUI and dedication to a worthy cause (eco-geeks).

[Drey]

I really wasn't going to post a reply because in all honesty I don't think anyone really listens to what anyone has to say these days but this comment from WoWI really stuck in my gut.

Further to that note, we expected better from him, as one of our Featured Artists. Even beyond being a good member of our community, we hold Featured Artists to a higher standard.

I think perhaps WoWI should quickly recognize their incredible lack of integrity in how they treat their "Featured Artists." The relationship displayed here is truly nothing more than master and servant. True, WoWI creates a site were developers can come to host their creations however their goal is clearly not altruism. No, their pursuit is money.

To abuse another of seeking the same is ridiculously childish to the point of infantile.

Even YouTube has the integrity to share their profits with the people most directly responsible for generating their revenue and I heartily think that WoWI should quickly do the same otherwise someone will eventually build a site where developers are part of the team and not a resource to be consumed and dried up as was Scott.

Just my thoughts....

[Cairenn]

Okay, let’s clear up a few misconceptions:

• Spiel2001 has not been banned from the site.
• He has not been suspended.
• He has not been shut down, banished or muted.
• He is still able to update existing files, upload new files, respond to posts and comments, start new threads.
• nUI has not been removed from the site.
• Users’ access to the files has not been removed.

The only thing that has happened is that his Featured Artist status has been removed. Nothing more. And even with that he still has a forum of his own, unlike any other non-Featured Artist on the site. As well as his custom groups, which still exist and that he still has complete control over just as has always been the case. And his supporter only version (nUI+) is still available to those who are members of that group, which again is still completely under his control.

As for the rest of it, I am talking to him directly.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Okay, let’s clear up a few misconceptions: Spiel2001 has not been banned from the site. <- true (so far) He has not been suspended. <- sorta true -- I have not, my forums have, as was my status He has not been shut down, banished or muted. <- sorta true... you removed my public response to your public lashing of me. I'd call that muted. The forums are all locked, I call that shut down. Modify any of the "nUI+ User Group" features. He is still able to update existing files, upload new files, respond to posts and comments, start new threads. <- not true - the forums remain locked, except this one and all of the "nUI+ User Group" files remain locked to me nUI has not been removed from the site. <- true (so far) Users’ access to the files has not been removed. <- true The only thing that has happened is that his Featured Artist status has been removed. <- not true. The forums remain locked, download areas for the premium nUI stuff remains locked Nothing more. <- not true (see other notes) And even with that he still has a forum of his own, unlike any other non-Featured Artist on the site. <- sorta true... I just can't post to it, nor can anyone else. As well as his custom groups, which still exist and that he still has complete control over just as has always been the case. <- not true. I cannot control them, nor can they be accessed from the menus And his supporter only version (nUI+) is still available to those who are members of that group, <- true which again is still completely under his control. <- not true As for the rest of it, I am talking to him directly. <- we are?

if you have sent me any private correspondence since the one you sent where you said we needed to talk, and to which I agreed to talk, and posted a public notice indicating my willingness to reconsider, all of which occurred before you closed all of my forums and removed my status without following through on your offer to talk. then I haven't seen it. We have talked about nothing. since you posted your public notice. It's still up. You closed my forums, they're still closed. You removed my status and its still removed. You removed my public response to your public notice, but left yours to me posted publicly. I don't see much talking going on here.

That all said, not withstanding the fact that you removed my post, I really don't see where there's anything left to talk about. The damage is done. I have no intention of apologizing for calling people out for bad behavior and standing up for myself against bullies and disrespectful people. Nor am I particularly interested in being forgiving.

So, there we are. I'll go my own way and we'll call it done.

And on that note, I'll log out and won't be back. Do with the nUI download areas, these forums and my login as you will.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 if you have sent me any private correspondence since the one you sent where you said we needed to talk, and to which I agreed to talk, and posted a public notice indicating my willingness to reconsider, all of which occurred before you closed all of my forums and removed my status without following through on your offer to talk. then I haven't seen it. We have talked about nothing. since you posted your public notice. It's still up. You closed my forums, they're still closed. You removed my status and its still removed. You removed my public response to your public notice, but left yours to me posted publicly. I don't see much talking going on here. That all said, not withstanding the fact that you removed my post, I really don't see where there's anything left to talk about. The damage is done. I have no intention of apologizing for calling people out for bad behavior and standing up for myself against bullies and disrespectful people. Nor am I particularly interested in being forgiving. So, there we are. I'll go my own way and we'll call it done. And on that note, I'll log out and won't be back. Do with the nUI download areas, these forums and my login as you will.

What the hell are you talking about? I haven't removed any of your posts.

As for not talking to you, the email is incoming. I'm sorry it hasn't been quick enough.

[Dameon]

I just don't understand how anyone can say the things that were said to Scott and still look themselves in the mirror. This includes the actions taken by this site. Most of these whiners have never coded an addon let alone continue to provide updates and bug fixes. Don't you morons understand how much time these people spend so you can play more efficiently. This time means the have less time to play WoW! While you are playing they are coding!

At no time did I see anyone say nUI would only be available on a paying basis. Sure they are asking for donations but then so do 90% of the authors on this site. This can be seen by the obnoxious POPUP that comes up all the time.

I agree with another poster that described the status of WoW. Not only has the latest pack been a flop but the changes allow a lot of obnoxious, self righteous kids to take over the game. These children are part of the generation that expects not asks but expects everything to be given to them! 11 million players down to 7 million players. That is a huge drop and the slide continues.

Anyhow it is too bad with stance that this site has taken. Well, Curse is a much better site anyhow.

[Dolby]

What actions do you think were taken by us "the site"? He was not kicked off the site or addons removed.

We posted front page news about the charity and supported spiel2001 the best we could professionally and personally. Unfortunately after his goal was not reached thats when things took a wrong turn (we were asked to drop the front page news). Due to his actions we only removed his Featured Author tag. Downloads are still available, forums, etc yes there are some technical/access issues due to how we worked with him for so long and we are working on those. How many of you have donated to his charity cause? If you didn't do you think it would be ok for me to talk down upon you or berate you?

I love the nUI community you guys are a bunch of passionate and talented users and authors. Its a three way street (is there such a thing?). Take just one (authors, users or website) from the equation you don't have much. Yes users helped make what nUI is today.

[todd0168]

Originally Posted by Dolby Unfortunately after his goal was not reached thats when things took a wrong turn

No, this is very much not true. You are implying that because he did not get what he wanted that things went south. It's when the trolls on his mailing list decided that a simple request from him required a response that was anything but civil. THAT'S what started this whole thing.

[sklynn]

At the risk of repeating what has already been said, I think it's terrible that this situation has come to this. Scott has such a valid point here, the community has changed and people take what they want and they don't give a crap who they step on in the process. I was thrilled when they announced the looking for dungeon tool. I was a guild master with only one max level toon and could only run with one group for the frost emblem. So I started leveling more to help other guildies and then randoms were introduced. I could run with everyone, and it was amazing! But then I noticed people started treating "pugs" like NPCs; like there wasn't even a real person behind the character they were running with. The first random I ran was met with a very rude person. And most groups I've ran with since are so focused on what they want that they don't even say hi or thanks anymore. There is so little consideration fro other people and what they may want or need. I know this isn't about Blizzard or their in-game functions, but it's not very different. Scott offers and amazing addon; I would be lost without it. Or I would be downloading 10 other addons to build one like his. He does this for free out of the love of his art and for the community. He asked for help for something he believed in, and instead of just not participating, people spit in his face. How hard would it have been to quietly delete the email and move on? I have several addons and I understand that it would be costly for everyone to donate to every addon they used, but that doesn't mean you get to take these free services for granted. If you don't agree with what the author is doing, and can't live with it, then take the high road, uninstall the addon, and move on. Show some maturity. Like others have said, Scott, many of us still stand behind you! Thank you for all your hard work.