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04-15-09, 02:50 PM   #381
voodoodad
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One more thing, the number of posts and the recent join dates tell me a lot. To me it means those users have registered for the sole purpose of coming in here and crying about how they can't auto update their addons now.
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04-15-09, 03:13 PM   #382
ashes11
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Originally Posted by voodoodad2000 View Post
It's really amazing how many of the people defending WM only have 2 or 3 posts under their names. Could it be that the only reason they're here is that their precious updater no longer works and they are coming out of the woodwork to complain about it? Surely not!
Why is that bad?

I've been using WoWInterface for a long, long time. I signed up a while ago when I was on the verge of having to ask some questions about Macaroon after switching off of Trinity bars, but... I figured things myself.

The WoWI admins seem nice enough, and many of the add-on authors are super smart and very helpful (Maul, for example), but I don't really have much to say to them beyond, "thanks, great job!". I do regret that I've transitioned from the "Silent Majority" of appreciative WoWI users to a squeaky wheel in regards to WM. Seriously, though, had WoWI said something well in advance about turning off WM, it would have saved me several hours of frustration yesterday.

I've seen the posts from the admins stating that WM costs them bandwidth money, which I accept. I've seen their posts mentioning that they had to cut off WM yesterday, because some other big add-on sites were going to do so as well. That makes sense to me, too. Reading between the lines, it seems that whoever's running curse these days was probably the motivating factor behind the WM shut-down.

All that being said, I've seen no satisfactory explanation about why WoWI/curse had to cut off WM without any warning at all to end-users. And by "warning", I mean posting something publicly once they had decided to do it, which was probably weeks ago. Not doing so was just rude. As justified as their actions may have been, surprising everyone on patch day just smacks of being a stunt. What reason could there have been not to give advance notice as soon as they decided they were going to do it ?
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04-15-09, 03:48 PM   #383
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You guys are very off-topic right now, so I suggest you get back on-topic. Personal attacks will not be tolerated. I really am too tired to go around cleaning up this thread so instead I might just accidentally hit the "suspend member" button instead. Please don't make me have to do that.

This topic is about WoWMatrix and what is being done to deny its access to this site. This topic is not about who has larger post counts or earlier join dates.
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04-15-09, 04:00 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by ashes11 View Post
Why is that bad?

I've been using WoWInterface for a long, long time. I signed up a while ago when I was on the verge of having to ask some questions about Macaroon after switching off of Trinity bars, but... I figured things myself.
Aye, it's more the ratio of low post count and old join date to low post count and joined in the last two days. Shows how many people joined just to *****, vs how many people have been long time users that just didn't post till now.
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04-15-09, 05:04 PM   #385
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Sorry, Shirik. Yesterday I started out trying to calm people down, but the more I read, the more heated up I got. I apologize to anyone insulted by my comments, even though I stand by most of them.
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04-15-09, 05:13 PM   #386
guice
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Originally Posted by voodoodad2000 View Post
It's really amazing how many of the people defending WM only have 2 or 3 posts under their names. Could it be that the only reason they're here is that their precious updater no longer works and they are coming out of the woodwork to complain about it? Surely not!
<-- Defending WM.
<-- Has Over double your posts.

Your point?
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04-15-09, 05:23 PM   #387
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I noticed a lot of people saying manually updating isn't that bad. I want to address that. Manually updating vs updating through a UI isn't the bottom issue here. It's convenience.

Do you run a Linux server? Do you people say "ugh, I can't delete this folder" and you say "oh, it's easy, just go into terminal and rm -f." Do you tell the people that have problems with an install "oh, that's easy, just cd to directly, chmod this file (install was bugged), mv this file" and so forth?

The issue isn't "manual updating isn't hard" it's the progression of user interfaces -- something came out that made a previously tedious task simple. We deal with this every day: it's called User Interfaces. As an iPhone user about cell phone interfaces. Ask a G1 user to use an old style cell phone. They are going to ***** up the ass and refuse. The interface has evolved. Now you're asking people to literally devolve because an interface (which wasn't doing anything illegal) gets banned.

Dolby has a lot of new ideas. I hope he takes them up. Heck, their own WoWI updater will have to use an API of some sort -- why not just reverse engineer that?

Anyway. I just wanted to address to whole "convenience" factor many people seem to be forgetting.
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04-15-09, 05:25 PM   #388
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Ah but are you defending their programing skills, or their means of obtaining content for said program?

*edit* reworded to be more clear
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04-15-09, 05:34 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by guice View Post
Anyway. I just wanted to address to whole "convenience" factor many people seem to be forgetting.
Convenience is certainly convenient, but providing it without placing a burden on the host sites is hard. WAU solved one burden (people updating via svn) and replaced it with another (even heavier bandwidth use) because it was convenient. WM once again solved the convenience issue, yet did even worse on the bandwidth front, perhaps because it was even easier to use? Had WM actually worked with WoWI and Curse to solve the bandwidth issue, then they could have secured their source of content and it wouldn't have been pulled out from under them when it became a problem.

As it stands the ball is essentially in their court. I bet that if they honestly wanted to make things work so all parties were happy and a sustainable design could be found, WoWI and Curse would be more than happy to work with them. Doing that would offload the need for those sites to create an updater, and user would be happy with the software they know and love.
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04-15-09, 05:50 PM   #390
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I agree, ball is in WM's court. And if they chose, they can fight. If they choose to fight, WoWI will surely loose. You can't win "banning" on the internet. That's what makes the internet so great! Everything goes. No boundaries, no rules, free reign. That's why the internet has grown so fast so quickly. WoWI set itself up for failure the moment is dropped the gauntlet and attempted to ban WM. "Force" is the word used. I don't believe in that. Other routes, now apparent, could have been taken. They were just unknown until recent discussions.

As for bandwidth; it's two fold here. The old days, it was a bunch of text files through SVN co's. People went directly to the svn they wanted and exported everything out; all through text medium. Text is very low bandwidth. Then you have WAU which essentially took svn snapshots and bundled them into a single download package. This convenience factor did two things: it increased bandwidth from scanning -- something that can be removed if the APIs were just there. It also increased bandwidth from people downloading *more* add-ons. When it's easier to update 30 add-ons, people tend to download 30+ add-ons.

WM did the same thing; but this time it was from multiple sources and this gave a wealth of options for the user. So what does the user do? Download even MORE add-ons! That, of course, causes even more bandwidth usage. And, natually, without an API, WM is force to website scrape.

If you think it over, you can see the bandwidth used wouldn't be that much more. It seems like a lot because of a few factors: a lot of users, and WM is doing a full scrape, short periods of time.
Now, add in this factor: if a user did all this by themselves, they'll be download every webpage they get through each link; ever JS file; ever image; every offsite reference. In reality, the two should be equal if not WM actually *saving* bandwidth. Saving simply because WM is dealing with text-only and not download images, js or css files in it's page scraping.

Last edited by guice : 04-15-09 at 05:54 PM.
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04-15-09, 05:56 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
Ah but are you defending their programing skills, or their means of obtaining content for said program?

*edit* reworded to be more clear
Their ability to create an interface that made is doubly simple to update add-ons from any of the three key repositories (Curse, Ace and WoWI). Nobody has been able to come even remotely close to the user interface WM had.

Again, its all about usability here. The average user doesn't get a hoots about backend bandwidth. They just want what's simple to use. And that will even mean the most bandwidth hogging application ever created if it meant updating all add-ons within 30 seconds.
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04-15-09, 05:58 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by guice View Post
If you think it over, you can see the bandwidth used wouldn't be that much more. It seems like a lot because of a few factors: a lot of users, and WM is doing a full scrape, short periods of time.
Now, add in this factor: if a user did all this by themselves, they'll be download every webpage they get through each link; ever JS file; ever image; every offsite reference. In reality, the two should be equal if not WM actually *saving* bandwidth. Saving simply because WM is dealing with text-only and not download images, js or css files in it's page scraping.
Yes but the pages that load also include ads that the revenue from is used to pay for the bandwidth. WM skips the ads, therefore cutting down on the revenue while increasing the cost of hosting by using bandwidth that does not have the advantage of being paid for by the advertising.

Ads skipped = $0, bandwidth used = $$$$, site go bye bye if it does not address the issue. Sites go bye bye WM goes bye bye because there is no where to leech the bandwidth from.

Yes it is THAT simple.
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04-15-09, 05:58 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by ashes11 View Post
All that being said, I've seen no satisfactory explanation about why WoWI/curse had to cut off WM without any warning at all to end-users. And by "warning", I mean posting something publicly once they had decided to do it, which was probably weeks ago. Not doing so was just rude. As justified as their actions may have been, surprising everyone on patch day just smacks of being a stunt. What reason could there have been not to give advance notice as soon as they decided they were going to do it ?
Your question is a naive one. Isn't it obvious ? They didn't want to give WM staff any prior notice, so that they could investigate, prepare and possibly circumvent the block, before if it was even in place. Moreover, breaking WM on a patch day would mean that the site would have less downtimes with a less frequency of requests for downloads. From my experience, the site has been a lot more responsive than other patch days, months ago, at which point, it wasn't even accessible AT ALL for a time.


As for the matter of convenience, heh, it reminded me a post from Scott today (nUI's Author), over at the UI & Macros forum.

I also love how all the entitlement minded "I should be able to use everything for free" people were standing on the argument that WoW is Blizzard's sandbox, so they have every right to prohibit mod authors from profiting from their work, but as soon as the shoe goes around the other way and WoWI/Curse do the same thing to block someone else from using their playground (WoWMatrix) they're all up in arms about how WoWI/Curse are jerks for inconveniencing them.
In all honesty, couldn't have said it better myself. Sometimes, like Scott, I wonder why the authors even bother.
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04-15-09, 06:06 PM   #394
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guice, yes I actually AGREE that WM is a pretty good program (I don't like that it mass-updates TOC numbers though. It should just force the "load outdated" on at all times). If they were to work with WoWI I'm sure the first thing they would get is a minimal-bandwidth method of finding out an addon's version and date. But that would require them to give back a certain chunk of their ad revenue (most likely something they'd work out as a flat per-megabyte-used rate), which would likely require them to put in more advertising or even a "premium" version like Curse is planning.
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04-15-09, 06:17 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by guice View Post
Their ability to create an interface that made is doubly simple to update add-ons from any of the three key repositories (Curse, Ace and WoWI).
The idea is nice, but will probably never see the light of day. Despite the fact that the community is generally unified on a lot of matters, both Curse and WoWI are running a separate business and it is in their best interest to keep expanding upon it, each one by utilizing its own resources. It's called competition I believe. Obviously if a mutually beneficial solution could be found that would keep everyone happy, then it would be ideal. I personally do not buy it, since I choose to live in the real world, where such things are always good on paper but when it comes down to it, they are never implemented for tons of reasons. This should not be confused in any way with the fact that Curse and WoWI banded together to stop an application that was disrupting their business model and was actually gaining something out of nothing (remember they never hosted any "content"). They had every right to do it and the fact that WM had set bad precedents by disrespecting authors wishes, only enhanced the problem. "But, but they changed eventually ! They are now crediting everyone !!111". Sure they did. It would be foolish of them not to and have to confront both authors/websites AND users.

Again, its all about usability here. The average user doesn't get a hoots about backend bandwidth. They just want what's simple to use. And that will even mean the most bandwidth hogging application ever created if it meant updating all add-ons within 30 seconds.
And that's why the average user will always whine (no matter what), will never be satisfied and always try to come up with ludicrous excuses and arguments to satisfy his sense of entitlement. The point to consider from a business perspective is where you choose to satisfy the user and where you decide to draw the line, so that you remain financially viable and keep satisfying him (at least to the degree that you are able to). This is getting again off topic though
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04-15-09, 06:31 PM   #396
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Pathetic

I'm someone who did register just to say that this kind of attitude is just detrimental to all.

Good work Wowinterface and Curse ... once more proving CASH > Users.

Curse .. your updater is HORRIBLE.

Wow interface, your site design is ghastly and a pain to use.

Learn from wowmatrix .. cut the **** and provide decent service.

Gotta laugh at the bollocks "ITS USINK ALL OUR BANDWIDTH!!!" .... bollocks.
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04-15-09, 06:34 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
The idea is nice, but will probably never see the light of day. Despite the fact that the community is generally unified on a lot of matters, both Curse and WoWI are running a separate business and it is in their best interest to keep expanding upon it, each one by utilizing its own resources. It's called competition I believe.
After looking through the thread announcing the progress Shirik has made on the 'in-developement' updater, I think it is totally possible that there will be an updater that -can- play nice with all of the sites. The ability for those sites (or a crafty unaffiliated programmer) to write plug ins and such is going to be built in to the new wowi updater, making most anything possible even "updating for multiple games".

Originally Posted by Shirik
As a teaser I can probably let you in on a few secrets:
  • OSGi Interface - The MMOUI Manager now interacts with a framework known as OSGi. This allows ANYONE to write modules for the application so that it can connect to other sites, add in new unpacking utilities (such as if someone wanted to write something to unpack 7zip, for example), etc. The possibilities are endless.
  • Multi-Game Tracking - As a side effect of being able to link any site to the MMOUI Manager, the MMOUI Manager is now capable of tracking and updating multiple games in a single pass.
  • News Features - A panel is added which allows for the display of news information (such as what you are reading now). This interfaces with OSGi so that anyone can link the MMOUI Manager to any site.
  • Automatic Updates - The MMOUI Manager now checks an update script to allow for automatic updating of the core and any supported modules
  • Improved Addon Heuristics - The MMOUI Manager has advanced heuristics now in place which automatically detects the ID of any addon to update. This eliminates the need for users to manually type in the ID of any addon not in their favorites list (which was required previously). It also eliminates the need to log in to access your favorites list.
This is not an all-inclusive list and just was what I can think of right now off the top of my head, but I hope it lets you get an idea of what to expect in the new version.

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04-15-09, 06:35 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by ugark View Post
Gotta laugh at the bollocks "ITS USINK ALL OUR BANDWIDTH!!!" .... bollocks.
Then you will not mind paying for my bandwidth. What is your address so I can send you my internet bill. For that matter why not pay for all the others on here too?

If WoWI and Curse cannot pay the bandwidth bill where do you think WM will get the addons? Nowhere. I have to laugh at all of those who cannot comprehend that.
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04-15-09, 06:48 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by ugark View Post
I'm someone who did register just to say that this kind of attitude is just detrimental to all.

Good work Wowinterface and Curse ... once more proving CASH > Users.

Curse .. your updater is HORRIBLE.

Wow interface, your site design is ghastly and a pain to use.

Learn from wowmatrix .. cut the **** and provide decent service.

Gotta laugh at the bollocks "ITS USINK ALL OUR BANDWIDTH!!!" .... bollocks.
Thank you for proving one of my points.
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04-15-09, 06:53 PM   #400
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Bollocks is such a great word... I can't stay mad at him.
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