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06-03-09, 08:15 PM   #1421
us2006027321
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Originally Posted by voodoodad View Post
@ Us,
Silent and Killers comments were moved here from the minion thread because they only want to rant about how great wm is/was and how bad minion is in their opinions.
Maha! Thank you for teh informobits. ^^
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06-04-09, 12:14 AM   #1422
Cairenn
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Okay, that's it, I've bitten my tongue and put up with this abuse for far too long, I'm not putting up with it any more. Congratulations, you've finally managed to push me to the point that I'm going to put my foot down.

As others have said, the patience level of many of us is basically at an end. We have been dealing with non-stop drama, and the resulting damage it has been doing to the UI community, since 20 March (the date of the introduction of Blizzard's UI AddOn Dev Policy). That’s over two full months of this. Is it any wonder people are tired of it all? Since 20 March we have had people come into our forums (not just here on WoWI) telling us that we (authors, sites, et al) are greedy jerks who don’t deserve any respect, let alone compensation, that everything we do is worthless and we should be privileged to be allowed to give our hard work to anyone that wants it, with absolutely no regard for ourselves or for the things we need to make our “work” easier to do so you have what you deserve (generic usage of you, not individual-specific), etc., etc., etc.

You come here as yet another person telling authors that they have to change their way of doing things, that the way they want to do things isn't "good enough" for you. That their wanting to have control over what license they use isn't acceptable, that their wanting to control where and how they distribute their mods isn't acceptable. That the hosting sites they want to use because those sites have the targeted tools they need doesn't matter. That the communities and relationships, familiarity and confidence and trust they have built up with each other and with the hosting sites doesn't matter. I've watched authors drop thousands of hours into writing, debugging, improving and maintaining their addons. But that doesn't matter. You completely ignore the things they have said, dismissing them for this reason or that. I'm sorry, but walking in here like that isn't going to encourage anyone to want to do anything for you.

And yes, I say “we” and "us" because you want to bet your bottom dollar that I consider myself part of the greater WoW UI community, not just this site. While I may not code addons for WoW myself (although I have for other games), and whether you choose to accept it or not, I have been a very big part of making the WoW UI community what it is. I’ve been here since Day 1, since the original F&F alpha. I have put hours upon hours upon thousands of hours into the community; arranging Beta Keys for all AddOn authors so they can make sure their mods are ready whenever a new expansion comes out so you don't have to go even one day without your mods that you are oh so entitled to; spending my own personal $$ to get hard, physical, proof of people illegally selling mods; making the authors aware of such; getting eBay and PayPal accounts shut down because of such; making authors aware of other sites that are distributing their mods without their permission; helping them write C&Ds and DMCA take-down orders; getting site info for those take down notices; setting up activities (above and beyond the ones Blizzard has in place) for the UI community as a whole (not just authors) at BlizzCon each and every year there has been one, getting hotel group rates for the entire community at BlizzCon, making restaurant arrangements for community-wide dinners, all from another country, etc., including for a year when I wasn't even going to be there for the things I was setting up for everyone else (if it hadn't been for the generosity of others, and they had to brow beat me into accepting it); spending my own personal $$ on swag to give away at BlizzCon; running IRC channels; running in-game guilds; running this site along with the rest of our sites; helping out on other sites; helping support other sites; helping in other sites' IRC channels; paying for the hosting of other sites; helping on forums not my own; continually helping develop new tools for authors; continually making our site better for everyone to use; giving users somewhere to get safe downloads; providing multiple ways for users to converse with authors; running contests for the entire community (not just authors); spending my own personal $$ on prizes for those contests; being up for anywhere from 24-72 hrs with maybe (if I’m lucky) 2-4 hrs sleep at a stretch for a week or more during a major patch to make sure the site is up and running; helping field questions on multiple forums about what is updated where; spending our own personal $$ on servers and bandwidth and domains and …

I have spent the last 8 years basically raising my daughter as a single parent because things are so bad financially for me and my husband that he has been living in another COUNTRY from us, because there is no work in his field that he can get here. At best we get to see him maybe, MAYBE, four (4) times in a year, if that. The last couple years, it's only been once. I have had one (1) two-week vacation in the last eight years. There have been times when our sites and our communities have been my lifeline, giving me a way to have contact with other people, helping me keep my sanity and giving me something to feel good about myself for because I am physically incapable of holding a "traditional" job ever since a very serious car accident a number of years ago. I put in anywhere from 16 hours on a slow day to 22 hours+ during a major patch/expansion on our sites.

Dolby has been holding down two jobs to make ends meet. He spends just as many hours working (between the sites and his other job) as I do.

Every other "staff" member on the site is a volunteer, spending their own free time (on their lunch hours, breaks, around school work, when they're at home in the evenings and around all their other obligations), and giving freely of their knowledge and skills to help make the community better for everyone that wants to make use of it. We would LOVE to be able to pay all of them. They deserve it so much. We (Dolby and I) have offered to personally pay them at least something each month out of our own pockets, and they have all refused. If the sites ever start making an actual profit instead of a loss, we will be fighting to get them paid too. We're trying to figure out some way we can offer something to our authors, as well. Hard to do when you're running in the red, though.

I have had my community (those that actually consider them part of a community, not just some random end user that couldn't care less) begging me to ban people, lock threads, censor posts. I have sat here and had myself, Dolby, our site and our (all volunteer) staff verbally abused, figuratively spit on, belittled and condemned. I have put up with more flaming directed at us than we would ever allow directed at any other user on the site. I've allowed it because I feel people have a right to have their own opinion and the right to state that opinion, whether I agree with them or not, to the point that I actually allow them more latitude than I do those that I agree with. The amount of libel that has been directed at us would get you banned if you directed it at another user here, and very possibly into a court of law if you tried it in any other community. But because it's been directed at us, I've been leaving it. And now one of you has the nerve to call us rapists?!? Well, guess what. Now? Now I am pissed. How DARE you? Do you even have the faintest idea just how completely offensive that is? Not only to us, but to anyone who has ever actually been raped. That ... omg, I just don't even have the words to express to you how angry I am right now.

Would you like me to continue? I really think at this point I deserve the right to be a little bit defensive and fed up with it all when someone basically tells me I’m slime and should go diaf, that all I am doing is sitting around on my @ss all day raking in the money off someone else’s work while not doing anything myself, that I'm taking advantage of them and f'ing them over, that I'm trying to restrict what site people use, that I'm only in it for the money, that my site is crap. I've been called a liar, a thief, a cheat, a parasite, a fraud and a rapist. I've been told I don't care about anyone but myself and my own bottom dollar, that I'm deliberately out to ruin it for everyone else, that I just want to f over the end users. That I have no right to take steps to protect myself and my site, so that the site can still be here for you to use, etc., etc., etc.

Meanwhile, I have been doing this since 2002 (EQI) and starting up WoWI in April 2004 during the initial F&FA. For the mathematically challenged, that is 7 years I’ve been doing this, 5 for WoW. I finally started getting something that might (at a stretch) be considered a "salary" last January. Yes, you read that right. I have been doing this for 7 years but have only started getting "salary" for any of it in the last year. Even with that, most people would consider my "salary" a joke and no way they'd put in the hours, or care, that I do for that low an amount. And yes, during those six years when I wasn't getting salary for any of this, I was spending my own personal money on stuff for the sites. I'm still spending my own personal money for stuff on the sites. So is Dolby.

I haven't told you any of this because I'm "trying to paint myself like the poor hard-done-by good guy". I haven't said any of it because I want pity or sympathy. I'm not looking for a pat on the back, either. I have said it because I am sick to death of people coming here and treating us like crap. We do not deserve what has been dished out over the last couple months. I've said it because: a) We are real people, too; and b) we have done, are doing, and will continue to do more for this community than you will ever know. What have you done for the community lately?

So I say again, congratulations guys, you've finally managed to make me completely lose my temper. No more. I am not putting up with any more. I am not allowing my staff to be abused any more. I am not subjecting my community to it any more. No more will you come here and flame my staff, my community, my authors and my site. I'm not allowing it any longer. You will treat everyone with respect and courtesy. You will follow our site rules . If you don't like the way things are done here, feel free to go elsewhere. Any further posts that are as abusive as what we've put up with in the last couple months will get you banned. Period. There are no more warnings after this. Keep it up and you're gone.


To my staff and my community – I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I've made you all put up with this for as long as I have. I'm sorry that my attempts to be …. fair? … to those that don't agree with us has meant that you have had to be subjected to all of this for so long. That you've had to deal with either reading the abuse, or being the direct target of it. I'm sorry that I haven't defended you the way I should have, and that I haven't put my foot down long before this.


*If you feel like this post was directed at you, then the chances are good that it probably was, in fact, directed at you. If you don't think it was directed at you, it probably wasn't.
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Last edited by Cairenn : 06-04-09 at 03:31 PM.
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06-04-09, 12:29 AM   #1423
Tekkub
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First!

Smartass comment incoming.

*edit*

Rape isn't funny. Okey, @ssrape is. Hey, it's late, I can't think of anything better.

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
We're trying to figure out some way we can offer something to our authors, as well.
I think you know damn well that every single author here doesn't want a dime from you until you're well in the black. If you were raking in assloads of cash, sure some kickback would be nice, but we all know you'd do that without asking if it were feasible, and not a single one of us wants a kickback at the cost of the site's sustainability.
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06-04-09, 12:39 AM   #1424
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Id like to think im part of the community and as such i think i can safely say you dont have to apologize to us. We understand your position and you were doing your best to be diplomatic. That's why many of us spoke up when you felt you couldn't.

I've been with you so to speak since the Eqinterface days (under the name Teneniel) and i know how much Dolby, you and the rest of the gang put in to this.

I wouldn't trade this community for any other and a large part of that is the people behind it.
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06-04-09, 12:44 AM   #1425
Jelly
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*hugs Cairenn*
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06-04-09, 01:34 AM   #1426
Sythalin
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
... UBER RANT...
Bout damned time.

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
We're trying to figure out some way we can offer something to our authors, as well.
I think I speak for most, if not all of the authors here when I say that we post our work voluntarily. Alway have, always will. Sure, we have our donation buttons and if users decide to use them, thanks! But I know that I have never expected to receive payment from a site just because of where I choose to host my files. Worry more about yourselves and keeping the site up and running than what you can give to the authors. We'll be fine. Just keep the flames and trolls off our cases and we'll all live in wonderful harmony with the bunnies and large collections of Dr. Seuss books.
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06-04-09, 01:37 AM   #1427
Tekkub
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Originally Posted by ChaosInc View Post
I think I speak for most, if not all of the authors here...
I already spoke for everyone. You're not allowed to speak for anyone. No, not even yourself.
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06-04-09, 01:39 AM   #1428
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Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
I already spoke for everyone. You're not allowed to speak for anyone. No, not even yourself.
Shush you. You still owe me bacon.
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06-04-09, 01:40 AM   #1429
Tekkub
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You got your bacon and you were satisfied.
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06-04-09, 05:50 AM   #1430
us2006027321
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Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
You got your bacon and you were satisfied.
I've not gotten pork from you yet, and I am not satisfied. I'm not talking about bacon, either. I think you know what I mean.

/jealous!
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06-04-09, 05:55 AM   #1431
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
I am not allowing my staff to be abused any more. I am not subjecting my community to it any more. No more will you come here and flame my staff, my community, my authors and my site.
/support Good for you!
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
To my staff and my community – I'm sorry. I'm sorry that I've made you all put up with this for as long as I have. I'm sorry that my attempts to be …. fair? … to those that don't agree with us has meant that you have had to be subjected to all of this for so long. That you've had to deal with either reading the abuse, or being the direct target of it. I'm sorry that I haven't defended you the way I should have, and that I haven't put my foot down long before this.
In understanding how leadership works, especially when one is the leader of a community of this size and impact, I think it's fair to say that it is a nigh impossibility to keep everyone happy. You apologies are appreciated but likely unnecessary. So far, I've stood by every decision you've made because they have always been in good logic and precise timing. I think you have been more patient with your detractors than their actions have warranted, and it reflects well on your honor, integrity, and dignity.
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06-04-09, 06:17 AM   #1432
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
Uber Wall o' Words
/AMEN!

It says a lot when Cairenn is driven to write a post like that. I have been around these boards for over three years now (May 2006) and I never seen her post like that. She is pissed and she has every right to be. I admin a couple of sites, and I am a moderator on a couple of other boards. I know how extremely difficult her job is, as I do similar tasks. just not with same traffic volume/publicity as the MMOUI network. To get insulted the way she has along with the entire MMOUI network and yet keep her cool until now says a lot about her. I know on my boards, I would have banned users and locked many more threads before this point. Then again, I don't have as a long a fuse as Cairenn has.

To those detractors who think I am "brown nosing", please leave now. I have total respect for Cairenn, Dolby, and the rest of the MMOUI staff. That was respect was earned 100%. If you can't respect the staff and their hard work, you don't belong here. There are plenty of places where you can spread your garbage, please do it there and don't pollute our community with your negative energy and trash.
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Last edited by Zyonin : 06-04-09 at 06:59 AM. Reason: fixing some typos
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06-04-09, 06:24 AM   #1433
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
Okay, that's it, I've bitten my tongue and put up with this abuse for far too long, I'm not putting up with it any more. ...................
It is darn well about time.

Hugs for you.
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06-04-09, 07:24 AM   #1434
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
A short little message
*Hugs Cairenn* *Pats her gently on the back* *Points to the pretty sunrise*
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06-04-09, 10:52 AM   #1435
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I read every last word, Cairenn. The reason why I am a moderator on this site is because I love it so much. This site kept me playing WoW, and was more of a community and resource to me than they will ever know. It's been a wonderful support network since I'm living away from family and friends, and I've loved getting to know you guys. Even during my break from WoW now, I'm still here.

I think I speak for all staff when I say that no apology is necessary. We know what had to be done. But we still say thank you for your rant, as you know we've been sick of all of this from day 1, too.

/me huggles the stuffinz out of Cairenn, and then moves on to everyone else, too!
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06-04-09, 11:26 AM   #1436
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Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
It's been a wonderful support network since I'm living away from family and friends, and I've loved getting to know you guys. Even during my break from WoW now, I'm still here.
Yah, I am in that position too, Seerah. WoWI is one of the few outlets I have of people who speak my languages (Geek, Gamer and English). I am an ocean away (literally) from friends and family and thus I love the community here. To see the disruptions that some annoying individuals have wrought annoys me to no end. I could say more however the word censor would have a merry time with my words and they would be breaking the Forum Rules. I have to much respect for the community here to do that. I only wish that people would stop and think about the real life humans that are on the other side of the Net.
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06-04-09, 12:08 PM   #1437
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Thank you, Cairenn. Seriously, truly, thank you. It's about bloody time you finally snapped and told all the trolls, flamers, and willingly ignorant people to shut up or go away. And it's about time that you've proven you're a human being who can be hurt, who can be pushed over the line, and who will eventually tell everyone where to go and how to get there. I've kept my mouth shut for this entire period as much as I could, because every time someone tries to be reasonable and civilized, they become a target of insults and have their words twisted and skewed beyond recognition. I've debated, I've argued in a civilized manner. This thread and others like it haven't been that. This is the kind of argument where one person doesn't care about all the points you put up, and just continually make everyone come away wanting to hit something or someone.

The staff here have put up with so much trying to stay professional and allow others to have their say. I work retail, and I deal with customer abuse - but at least when it gets bad, I can call my supervisor or manager and get them to kick the abusive customer out. You people aren't even customers, and you've effectively been getting away with abusing every person in the store up to and including the store manager. Has it occurred to a single one of you that all you've succeeded at doing is a) upsetting perfectly decent people and b) portraying yourselves as being the half-witted inbred cousins of the scum of the internet world? Because you're not actually criminals, but you come off as rude, willingly ignorant (I've used it before, I'll use it again, because in my mind willful ignorance is worse than stupidity), and completely lacking in any kind of common sense or ability to be anything more than yet another mindless troll. The difference between you and people who usually get banned is that you become even more obnoxious about how they're 'just proving your point' when they simply enforce the rules and make you shut up.

Deal with it. The authors are not obligated to do anything. They have the right to do with their addons as they please. The staff and community of this forum (and all the other applicable ones) are not obligated to take the abuse you've heaped on them regardless of all civilized manners that your mother should have taught you as a child but somehow missed. And you know what? Get a damned dictionary. After you've spell-checked all those miserable excuses for posts that have shown up, look up rape. And if that doesn't tell you just how serious a word it is, you don't deserve to have it in your vocabulary. Don't ever use that against someone just because you don't like them. It's not funny. It's not insulting. That's over the line, and I can see why Cairenn finally snapped when you called her that.

For my part, thank you Dolby. Thank you Cairenn. Thank you Seerah, and Shirik, and Cladhaire, and Belladonna, and Iriel, and our new mod Tristanian. Thank you Kudane, who isn't here anymore. All of you have gone that extra mile for your community, and have agonized over its every bump and falter, and have put up with all of this and tried to be reasonable because you wanted to try and be the better people. You've done everything you can, and beyond this point, anyone who would be offended or banned wouldn't have been a real member of the community anyway. Please keep up the good work.
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06-04-09, 12:17 PM   #1438
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Yeah, I don't think Cair is going to have an slack from any of us community members for this. I've had enough as well, and I fully empathize with her.

/me hugs Cairenn
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06-04-09, 12:40 PM   #1439
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
Ackis is the best person in the world!
Well written. *thumbs up*

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06-04-09, 12:51 PM   #1440
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/gets Carienn a hard drink.

you deserve it Cairenn.
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WoWInterface » Site Forums » News » WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

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