WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 4

meganbto · 03-21-09, 01:30 AM

Originally Posted by Tekkub

This is a great analogy, but I'm afraid you're very clearly lying. Stores don't have manual doors anymore!

*hides*

I do not lie! In my tiny, run down, poor town in North East England they do - in fact very few stores here are big enough to have electric doors.

I have supported your addons in the past Tekkub, but not in the future

The world is much larger and more varied than your narrow view of it, and you should not comment on things you know nothing about.

GrissomXIX · 03-21-09, 01:33 AM

I should get myself one of those automatic door things for the garage where I park my ski-doo, sounds like a damn fine invention.

Yhor · 03-21-09, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by meganbto

I do not lie! In my tiny, run down, poor town in North East England they do - in fact very few stores here are big enough to have electric doors.

I have supported your addons in the past Tekkub, but not in the future

The world is much larger and more varied than your narrow view of it, and you should not comment on things you know nothing about.

I Laughed. I laughed hard.

***Cairenn*** · 03-21-09, 01:40 AM

Okay, I've gone through and removed a bunch of posts because they had devolved to personal attacks. Repeated occurrences will lead to site vacations. Debate is fine. Disagreement is fine. Discussion is fine. Leave the personal stuff out of it. Keep it civil, courteous and respectful of one another's right to their own opinion.

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 01:48 AM

Originally Posted by Tekkub

This is a great analogy, but I'm afraid you're very clearly lying. Stores don't have manual doors anymore!

*hides*

He he, you haven't spent any time where I grew up (Montana) or the places I have lived since (Greece, Italy). Some of those doors springs have not been changed since just after Second World War.

Going on topic: I can truly see where Blizzard is coming from with this new policy. I was not aware that Carbonite had even released a version that showed "in-game adverts". Then again, A) I did not use Carbonite as I have always used my personal leveling guide, aka my brain, and B) I am currently on an enforced "break" from WoW thanks to our "wonderful" economy.

One thing to remember about this policy: ITS WRITTEN BY LAWYERS!!!! Anyone who has ever had to deal with a lawyer know that lawyers prefer as a large a weapon as they can can get their hands on (i.e. write) to cover EVERY theoretical base. It's kind of like buying a tool for digging holes to plant your petunias. Most people would buy a trowel, however lawyers will buy an excavator. After all, the bases are now covered, you can dig holes for your petunias and dig up the sewer lines with the same "tool". It's the same thing with this policy. Blizzard's lawyers (not quite IBM's Nazgul, but of the same breed) are making sure to cover any loopholes that may crop up. Blizzard has always been very protective of their IP and code. Anyone remember BNET? Likewise, someone was working on a Starcraft themed mod for Command and Conquer Generals only to get pounced on by the Blizzard lawyers.

I don't see most mods that ask for a donation in the form of a polite statement somewhere showing up on the Blizzard radar. It's those mods that are quite blatant about their requests that will get shot down.

Likewise with the section covering HD usage and such, this is targeted toward mods that send a truck load of data via the data/chat channels that will impact OTHER players (not you, the mod user). Some mods do send a ton of data out to other players (usually with those same mods), data that now has to processed by your machine (usually a quick flip of the data so your mod can now use it). To much data = more processing = more resources used = crappy playing experience for others. This was one of the reasons why some libs were written to throttle the incoming data from others.

Generally I support these policy changes. Yes they have painted with a brush that is way too broad to deal with a few bad apples. Then as I pointed earlier in the post, this is the way of lawyers. They are not like dragons or wizards, they are worse...

**Shirik** · 03-21-09, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by Lykofos

They are not like dragons or wizards, they are worse...

Problem is, they're also boss mobs. So even when an expansion comes out and we're 10 levels higher, they'll still count as our level +3 and destroy us anyway if you try to solo them.

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Shirik

Problem is, they're also boss mobs. So even when an expansion comes out and we're 10 levels higher, they'll still count as our level +3 and destroy us anyway if you try to solo them.

If they are boss mobs then their level is not "Skull" or "??", its:

In regards to this thread's topic, while many acknowledge Carbonite may have been the catalyst for this policy, another group of mods recently caught my attention: Bang! (aka BangCraft) These mods are not distributed by WoWI, you can find them other AddOn sites such as Curse and WoWUI (some of the Bang! mods anyway). The issue with these mods is some of them are trialware. You can use them for two weeks, then you got to pay for them. From Bang! PvP (@WoWUI)

This version of the addon is limited to a 2 week trial period. For further details, please click the FAQ link below

Others you can't even get without paying. At least Carbonite had the free version (Carbonite Quest) and the later ad supported Carbonite Ad version (a bit dodgy in IMHO).

Blizzard likely saw the combo of both Carbonite with the adverts and the Bang! trialware, said Oh <<CENSORED>>!!!, threw an adventurer or two into the Lawyer's Den (to get the taste and scent of blood into the air) and thus this policy. When I first saw the quote from the Bang! mod, I was thinking "This is going a bit too far", and it appears that Blizzard was thinking along those lines.

Bangerz · 03-21-09, 02:26 AM

Regarding trialware addons, don't you think test driving something before buying it is better? I never really understood the argument against them.

In any case it looks like we have a lot of work to do moving to a new system. I can absolutely understand the reasoning behind Blizzards move, but whether they actually have the right seems like more than a bit of a grey area to me... I mean, it's not their code, but it is their game... hmm.

The no donate buttons in ingame menus? Really? I've never seen one I thought was intrusive.

S### happens I guess, gotta roll with the punches.

p.s. You're gonna love the next mod! - and I guess its going to be free haha

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bangerz

Regarding trialware addons, don't you think test driving something before buying it is better? I never really understood the argument against them.

I said nothing in regards whether or not I personally was for or against "try before you buy". It was more in regards to Blizzard's reaction.

Historically (as I mentioned in a previous post), Blizzard guards its games quite jealously. Again, I bring up the case of BNET which was an open source version of Battle.Net. Blizzard games able to be accessed via a non-Blizzard sanctioned network? The lawyers cry out, "Oh no!" Blizzard was able via court action to shut down BNET.

Simply put, if something either can directly access the WoW client (or other Blizzard games) or make money directly from a Blizzard game then Blizzard's lawyers will move and have a feast. I would (to be quite frank) rather take on a mother grizzly bear with cubs. I think would have a better chance of survival.

When I first saw Carbonite pop-up several months ago on Curse, I had similar thoughts. Likewise when RDX when "commercial" as of V.6, I had similar thoughts. Likely this issue crossed someone's mind at Blizzard when RDX released its "for pay" version. However since the RDX for pay version never really caught on, the issue likely was forgotten about or other priorities came up (such as the Glider case).

Yhor · 03-21-09, 02:41 AM

I helped fuel the fire in the Bang debate when it came to these boards. It wasn't so much that they were for-pay addons, it was they weren't marked as such and the code wasn't open to read. My reaction, at the time, was a paranoia related knee jerk reaction for the safety and reputation of this site and it's users.

Bangerz · 03-21-09, 02:49 AM

Haha well the 'not marked' thing was a mistake and got fixed pretty quickly.

We we expecting a negative response to the little venture from all the '0 uploads $0 donations' types, but not quite the flamestorm that actually happened.

Jonno · 03-21-09, 02:54 AM

I wonder what this entails for out of game "addons" such as various guides or helpsites. Unless i am mistaken there are no official rules about using leveling/gold guides, or whether you pay or not. A possible change to this in future?

(I assume these paid guides are legit - all the "legal powerleveling" in the ads for them gave me this impression)

Another question is how do Blizzard clarify section three:

3) Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players.
Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of the World of Warcraft realms or otherwise negatively affects the game for other players. For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates.

Surely a the memory usage of addons (such as questhelper and the 15mb+ o its own) goes down to the User's discretion, in the same way you would be foolish to maximise graphics on an older computer.

Overall i hope Blizzard give a more detailed breakdown of some of the policy. Like WotLK beta, there are still a few edges to be tidied up before they fully enforce these rules.

Yhor · 03-21-09, 03:00 AM

Another question is how do Blizzard clarify section three:
Quote:
3) Add-ons must not negatively impact World of Warcraft realms or other players.
Add-ons will perform no function which, in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion, negatively impacts the performance of the World of Warcraft realms or otherwise negatively affects the game for other players. For example, this includes but is not limited to excessive use of the chat system, unnecessary loading from the hard disk, and slow frame rates.
Surely a the memory usage of addons (such as questhelper and the 15mb+ o its own) goes down to the User's discretion, in the same way you would be foolish to maximise graphics on an older computer.

"in Blizzard Entertainment's sole discretion" is the key phrase here. It is a broad enough statement to blanket the entire southern hemisphere.

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Jonno

Surely a the memory usage of addons (such as questhelper and the 15mb+ o its own) goes down to the User's discretion, in the same way you would be foolish to maximise graphics on an older computer.

While this section is rather broadly written, I believe that this (from my first post in this thread) is more what this section is to be interpreted as:

this is targeted toward mods that send a truck load of data via the data/chat channels that will impact OTHER players (not you, the mod user). Some mods do send a ton of data out to other players (usually with those same mods), data that now has to processed by your machine (usually a quick flip of the data so your mod can now use it). To much data = more processing = more resources used = crappy playing experience for others. This was one of the reasons why some libs were written to throttle the incoming data from others.

However as Yhor has pointed out, Blizzard is the gatekeeper and has written themselves plenty of leeway.

Granted we need some Blues to clarify this policy. In the meantime we should all put down our "cyber pitchforks" (I forget who on the official boards used this term, sounds like something Tekkub would say however) and torches until we get more info. Then if it is warrented, we can form the ugly mob and try to storm the castle.

Bangerz · 03-21-09, 03:07 AM

My impression is that it is aimed at excessive addon channel usage, but they have kept it broad enough that they can ban any mod they like whenever they like.

What I want to know is, how do you 'ban' a mod? The author could easily RNG up the toc file.

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 03:08 AM

Originally Posted by Bangerz

My impression is that it is aimed at excessive addon channel usage, but they have kept it broad enough that they can ban any mod they like whenever they like.

What I want to know is, how do you 'ban' a mod? The author could easily RNG up the toc file.

Turn data channels into Secure code and lock em down?

Tekkub · 03-21-09, 03:09 AM

Wait what? I never said ****, I support the new rules.

I won't abide by #6, but I don't fear that action will be taken against me :P

Yhor · 03-21-09, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Bangerz

My impression is that it is aimed at excessive addon channel usage, but they have kept it broad enough that they can ban any mod they like whenever they like.

What I want to know is, how do you 'ban' a mod? The author could easily RNG up the toc file.

I suggested this would be a solution as well on blizz forums. It seems, so far, no one has an alternate work around. Since no one has seen how their method of addon banning works, we'll have to wait and see.

**Shirik** · 03-21-09, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Bangerz

What I want to know is, how do you 'ban' a mod? The author could easily RNG up the toc file.

That's not something I hope to see. When that starts happening, then we're going to start seeing things like needing to sign our addons to be able to run them with a per-author key, and that will be an absolute nightmare, imho.

Some things we try to make not happen. Others we hope and pray for the sanity of mankind.

Tekkub · 03-21-09, 03:17 AM

Signing. It's not somewhere they want to go, but the code has been in place for a long time, and is used by *one* addon out there. If they have to, they will though.