WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

[Sythalin]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 I'll answer strictly for myself... I did it EXACTLY Bliz's way from June 1, 2008 through March 7, 2009 and made $300 in donations. I added an in-game notice at login that nUI is user supported software and depend on donations and added some extra raid panels as a thank you and an incentive to make a donation and I made $4000 in donations in 13 days.... and those two tools are the exact two tools Bliz said I can't do anymore. So... yeah... I'm a little spun up. EDIT: I note I did not force anyone to donate, I didn't set a minimum, I didn't ask for a subscription, I didn't ban anyone from using the mod... I just asked them for a donation where they could see the reminder and I gave them a benefit for being kind enough to support my effort.

As someone replied to before (and not pointing a finger directly, but spiel provided a perfect example), nothing to do with the income from it? A good majority of the authors who are whining about this are those who are making that 8k a month (using the giving figure). Only a handful of non-profit authors I've seen objected, and quite frankly they get more respect from me for it because they're rebelling against the actual cause, not because their pocket books are taking a hit. If you didn't care about the money, why even have a donate link on a site page, moreso why have a reminder in-game every time someone logs in? Oh, that's right, to make sure that people see it in hopes that they'll pay up.

So to all the profit authors (again, not directly at you spiel, but as a whole), go ahead and defend yourselves, but no one's buying the "Oh, I don't care about the money!" line of BS.

I have high doubts that when Blizz decided to let people mod their game to their liking that one of the pros brought up was "Let's do this so other people can get rich off it!". More likely it was to get an idea of what the community would like to see in the game and incorporate those popular "requests". Still an ingenious system in my opinion, as it cuts out a lot of the "that part of the UI sucks", "I hate that feature" and/or 10k pages of UI improvement requests. Mod popularity is definitely a more reliable source as to what the masses want, and without the headaches.

Originally Posted by spiel2001 http://www.insidetech.com/news/artic...blizzard-games

I have yet to pay or charge for an addon to date. The moment I walk down a road in-game and see a "Try Windows Vista!" billboard, I'm done.

[Sythalin]

Originally Posted by septor That actually only works if you were to resell an existing addon Blizzard wrote on their own. Like the Achievement frame.

Then every mod out there that hooks a Blizz function needs be banned. You're copying an existing function and either replacing it with your own or stealthily modifiying it before letting the original code run.

At this rate, if people are going to get so worked up over not being able to have their "donations" button in-game, I'm in full support of Blizz just locking down the entire ****ing API and people will either have to STFU and get over it or move on.

[spiel2001]

there is no reason to believe that you could not have made that same amount of money with or without that in game donation ad.

Sure there is... I changed two things... a notice and a premium. The new rules say I can't have a notice and I can't have a premium. That puts me back where I was when I started and I know exactly how much I made. Remember... I already had everything Bliz said I could have, I changed two things and those two things are now prohibited. Why would I expect that what didn't work before the change will now work when I undo the change?

Originally Posted by Derkyle use donations to maintain a forum or something for support.

That is strictly prohibited by #1 in the terms...

1) Add-ons must be free of charge.

All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create “premium”; versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

(emphasis my own)

Originally Posted by ChaosInc I have high doubts that when Blizz decided to let people mod their game to their liking that one of the pros brought up was "Let's do this so other people can get rich off it!".

Okay.. that's well enough... then if the issue is Bliz having a problem with other people profiting from the game, why not shut down WoWI, Thottbot, WoWWiki, Curse.com, WOWUI, etc.? They are *all* profiting off both the game and the mods.

I'm not saying they should.. I'm saying why are we treating the mod authors differently than the sites the live off of both the mod author and Bliz? What's the distinction based on your argument? Mod authors are evil and should not profit from them, but the sites that host their mods can?

Originally Posted by ChaosInc Then every mod out there that hooks a Blizz function needs be banned. You're copying an existing function and either replacing it with your own or stealthily modifiying it before letting the original code run.

Hooking a function does not copy it. I adds functionality before or after it as the case may be. Furthermore, the hooking capability is an API which is freely provided because Bliz wanted you to be able to do it.

In addition, you cannot modify Bliz code, even global variables, in game because it taints which causes the game to stop working.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, just explaining how it really works which you apparently are unclear on.

[GrissomXIX]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Okay.. that's well enough... then if the issue is Bliz having a problem with other people profiting from the game, why not shut down WoWI, Thottbot, WoWWiki, Curse.com, WOWUI, etc.? They are *all* profiting off both the game and the mods. I'm not saying they should.. I'm saying why are we treating the mod authors differently than the sites the live off of both the mod author and Bliz? What's the distinction based on your argument? Mod authors are evil and should not profit from them, but the sites that host their mods can?

How does a privately owned and operated website profit from the game directly? Do their users have to pay to access the sites or the information contained within through Blizzard? Is the only way they can download the add-ons through payment? These sites are supported by advertisement windows or site supporting donations, they do not charge directly or indirectly for add-on or information usage. Add-on usage isn't a requirement, it's a decision made by the users and that decision has not required payment in almost five years.

Trying to compare the two is pointless as they are two very different things. These sites rely on people clicking banner ads to generate revenue or direct donations to support the site, they don't demand payment in exchange of information or add-on downloads. Sure you get some added site features if you're a supporter, but you don't get any more access to the files or information than a non-paying user, do you?

No, you don't. Two completely different things.

If I were to donate to WowHead, would I get any more information or special privileges on the website than anyone else? Nope. Would I get any more add-on download capabilities if I were to be a site supporter here? Nope, but I'd get a tag under my newly coloured name saying "Site Supporter."

Finally, you willingly uploaded your add-on here and wherever else full well knowing that the websites had banner ad support, yet you went ahead and uploaded. How is that their problem? They didn't MAKE you upload your add-on(s) here, you felt you wanted to share your add-on and did so on an ad supported website and are now complaining about the fact that they make revenue off you?

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 1) Add-ons must be free of charge. All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create “premium”; versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

Why does everyone insist on reading that that way. I've changed the placement of your emphasis.

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Okay.. that's well enough... then if the issue is Bliz having a problem with other people profiting from the game, why not shut down WoWI, Thottbot, WoWWiki, Curse.com, WOWUI, etc.? They are *all* profiting off both the game and the mods. I'm not saying they should.. I'm saying why are we treating the mod authors differently than the sites the live off of both the mod author and Bliz? What's the distinction based on your argument? Mod authors are evil and should not profit from them, but the sites that host their mods can?

We live off you? I wasn't aware that you viewed us a parasite. Why did I somehow have it in my head that we offered as much to authors and users as we get from them?

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Trying to compare the two is pointless as they are two very different things. These sites rely on people clicking banner ads to generate revenue or direct donations to support the site

First... profit is profit. The point I was arguing was the point that the problem Bliz has was with people profiting from their game. These sites profit from the game. Period. How they profit is not relevant in that discussion.

they don't demand payment in exchange of information or add-on downloads. Sure you get some added site features if you're a supporter, but you don't get any more access to the files or information than a non-paying user, do you?

Okay.. what's the difference between "they don't demand payment in exhange for information or add-on downloads" and "nUI doesn't demand payment in exchange for information or add-on downloads" -- they rely on you clicking a button, I rely on you clicking a button. Can't see the distinction there... do you?

Likewise.... What's the difference between "Sure you get some added site features if you're a supporter" and "You get some added mod features if you're a supporter" -- can't see the distinction there, either.

[Sepioth]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Sure there is... I changed two things... a notice and a premium. The new rules say I can't have a notice and I can't have a premium. That puts me back where I was when I started and I know exactly how much I made. Remember... I already had everything Bliz said I could have, I changed two things and those two things are now prohibited. Why would I expect that what didn't work before the change will now work when I undo the change?

Yeah you changed two things at the SAME time.

You went from a free addon with no donation and no premium product.. to a free addon with a donation getting those who donated a PREMIUM product.

You would most likely made that same amount even if you couldn't advertise in the addon before .. the in game advertising is NOT what made you the money .. it was the incentive to get something EXTRA for a small donation.

And yeah I understand that NOW you can't give out that bonus to those who donate but I think you and others are jumping ship to fast here.

Ever think about maybe, JUST MAYBE, to try supporting those who supported you by giving you $4000 dollars in 13 days by continuing the project, all of it complete raid frames and all, with a some sort of GOOD FAITH trial and give those who supported you in the past the option to CONTINUE supporting you in future will a donation option. Yeah people will mooch the free complete UI but you might be supprised as to how many of your loyal supporters might still stay loyal and continue to contribute.

But then again I doubt you would do that as all you seem to really care about here is the MONEY. Honestly if you wanted to make money and a living programming I think relying on WoW mod revenue was a bad BAD business choice.

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Okay.. that's well enough... then if the issue is Bliz having a problem with other people profiting from the game, why not shut down WoWI, Thottbot, WoWWiki, Curse.com, WOWUI, etc.? They are *all* profiting off both the game and the mods. I'm not saying they should.. I'm saying why are we treating the mod authors differently than the sites the live off of both the mod author and Bliz? What's the distinction based on your argument? Mod authors are evil and should not profit from them, but the sites that host their mods can?

AGAIN and AGAIN i repeate this ... nothing is STOPING you from making money of your addon .. add a donation button, add advertisements, add what ever you want to your site to get money. Just you can't do it in game .. and last time I checked ... all these add on hosting sites don't advertise in game.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Why does everyone insist on reading that that way. I've changed the placement of your emphasis. We live off you? I wasn't aware that you viewed us a parasite. Why did I somehow have it in my head that we offered as much to authors and users as we get from them?

Cairenn, please do not take what I said so literally... quite to the contrary, I view it as a symbiotic relationship. The point I was trying to make is that if there were no mods, there would be no site to download them from. Download sites depend on the existence of mods the player community values. The mods depend on the existence of the sites to reach those players. But it remains that if either didn't exists, neither would the other.

Also, let me be crystal clear that I do NOT think you're charging for downloads and I am NOT reading it that way. The post I was replying to stated that Bliz's concern was that people were profiting from their game, my reply was why do they not treat everyone who is profiting from the game equally then. I was not attacking WoWI, I was debunking his flawed logic.

I know you've had you head handed to you for the last 24 hours, as have I... please don't let your fatigue, frustration and underlying irritation with the last 24 hours color what I said to imply something I did not say.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Sepioth Yeah you changed two things at the SAME time. You went from a free addon with no donation and no premium product.. to a free addon with a donation getting those who donated a PREMIUM product.

I fail to see how any of that is vaguely relevant if I'm specifically prohibited from doing either. It does not matter one iota if the thing that made it work was the in-game plea or the premium for making a donation... I am no longer permitted to do either, so I'm back to where I started.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 Likewise.... What's the difference between "Sure you get some added site features if you're a supporter" and "You get some added mod features if you're a supporter" -- can't see the distinction there, either.

That is the exact difference right there. You pointed it out yourself. "added site features" == not in game, doesn't affect the game play. "added mod features" == in-game, affects game play. They don't care if you do the former, they have no objection to it whatsoever. If you want to give your donors a special hidden forum where you give them additional communication, but no difference in-game, that's absolutely fine under this policy. You aren't allowed to offer IN-GAME benefits for cash. And whether it's for-pay or as a thank you for a donation, it still is an IN-GAME benefit to the person that paid that subscription or donation.

I know, and don't take my words personally either. They aren't aimed at you as an individual. They are pointing things out to the community at large. We're all tired and frustrated. I hate how this is polarizing the community. That's why I've been trying to stay out of it, other than posting factual information.



[Edit] Also, we haven't posted anything about it previously, but no, authors aren't quite back where they were pre-policy. We (WoWI) are working on some things that will hopefully help the authors out, under the new policy. As soon as it is ready to go, we'll post a news blurb about it.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Sepioth Ever think about maybe, JUST MAYBE, to try supporting those who supported you by giving you $4000 dollars in 13 days by continuing the project

http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=21327

[GrissomXIX]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 First... profit is profit. The point I was arguing was the point that the problem Bliz has was with people profiting from their game. These sites profit from the game. Period. How they profit is not relevant in that discussion.

Actually it is VERY relevant to the discussion because they do not CHARGE YOU FOR ACCESS TO THE FILES as an add-on author would for say...a premium or feature rich version of their add-on. Profit IS profit, but they make theirs indirectly by choice of their users not by offering add-ons for pay that other people cannot access.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Cairenn That is the exact difference right there. You pointed it out yourself. "added site features" == not in game, doesn't affect the game play. "added mod features" == in-game, affects game play. They don't care if you do the former, they have no objection to it whatsoever. If you want to give your donors a special hidden forum where you give them additional communication, but no difference in-game, that's absolutely fine under this policy. You aren't allowed to offer IN-GAME benefits for cash. And whether it's for-pay or as a thank you for a donation, it still is an IN-GAME benefit to the person that paid that subscription or donation.

I'm sorry.. but the language of the terms as written does not agree with you...

All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create “premium”; versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on.

Additional communication, additional support... it's all a service related to the addon. Charging money to download an add-on isn't in-game either and is strictly prohibited. The problem isn't whether it is in game or not in game, it is whether or not the mod author is receiving any form of compensation in any manner for anything in any way related to their work.

(again... I am *NOT* saying that's what WOWI charges to download before I make you bite again ~grin~)

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Why did I somehow have it in my head that we offered as much to authors and users as we get from them?

Because you're fool enough to listen to those voices in your head, against our advice.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by spiel2001 I'm sorry.. but the language of the terms as written does not agree with you... All add-ons must be distributed free of charge. Developers may not create “premium”; versions of add-ons with additional for-pay features, charge money to download an add-on, charge for services related to the add-on, or otherwise require some form of monetary compensation to download or access an add-on. Additional communication, additional support... it's all a service related to the addon. Charging money to download an add-on isn't in-game either and is strictly prohibited. The problem isn't whether it is in game or not in game, it is whether or not the mod author is receiving any form of compensation in any manner for anything in any way related to their work. (again... I am *NOT* saying that's what WOWI charges to download before I make you bite again ~grin~)

And again, you (and the community as a whole) are putting the emphasis in the wrong place in the statement. It all has to do with access to the files. Not communication/support. I really hope they will make a statement next week when they are all back in the office, to clear up some of the ambiguity of the policy.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX Actually it is VERY relevant to the discussion because they do not CHARGE YOU FOR ACCESS TO THE FILES as an add-on author would for say...a premium or feature rich version of their add-on. Profit IS profit, but they make theirs indirectly by choice of their users not by offering add-ons for pay that other people cannot access.

I still cannot see the distinction you're trying to perch your argument on... why is choosing to pay for an add-on not a choice of the user? If you don't want to pay for it, don't -- choice made. If you want to pay for it, do. Choice made. Whether the profit is direct or indirect is not relevant to your argument, it is profit derived from choice.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Tekkub Because you're fool enough to listen to those voices in your head, against our advice.

Darnit, were those the stupid voices again? Wish they'd stop messing with me!

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Cairenn I really hope they will make a statement next week when they are all back in the office, to clear up some of the ambiguity of the policy.

Which is precisely why the community has been screaming about the "problems" in the statement for the last 30 hours now.

The problem is there is no right or wrong part to put the emphasis on. It is ALL one statement and that statement says mod authors cannot charge for services related to their addon... support is a service... ergo, they cannot charge for it.

I do hope Bliz would clarify it, then at least authors would have SOMETHING they could offer to their users besides what they already have for free that the user MIGHT perceive as having value.

I'm betting you Bliz does not believe mod authors should be allowed to charge for support either.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX So in the case of Carbonite, if the user relies heavily on the free version of the add-on and wants the full featured version, they don't HAVE To pay for it? If users of your nUI want the integrated raid frames you offer they don't have to donate first? To use the information and add-ons here, I do NOT have to put forward any money nor do I HAVE to click a banner, but to ge the full features of certain add-ons you do HAVE to pay for them. Not much of a choice really.

You're wrong... they can choose to use another mod. They can choose to download GRID and have raid frames in nUI without paying for nUI's raid frames. They have a lot of choices. Why are they entitled to it for free?

[Cairenn]

/grabs herself by the scruff of the neck and tells herself to calm down again

/grabs everyone else by the scruff of the neck and tells them to all calm down again, too