WowMatrix Responds!

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by bknab This is one of the misconceptions that was brought up by a few people earlier in the thread, namely Lykofos, if I recall. There is absolutely no need to update your AddOns every day. Why would you update if it's working properly and you have no errors?

new features, compatibility with other versions of the same mod.

it's not like wm was using the wowace svn to grab every single update. given the drag it is to actually upload a new mod manually, i kind of doubt people bother posting new versions of their mods unless they're significantly different.

now maybe there's some significant overhead in checking to see if there's a new version, but that would only be if curse and wowi were trying to avoid deeplinking by shuffling things around so that you had to do some scraping to find stuff. (this is where the wowm claim that they proposed a system to avoid extra traffic rings true to me -- basically saying throw all the mods in one spot so we don't have to churn pages just to tell somebody they're up to date). in a purely co-operative environment, all the wm client would need to do is check with the wm server for the which versions were the latest and where they were located. the server would be notified on new files being uploaded (a la the way wowace pushes to curse). not saying wowi or curse should have felt obliged to play ball or anything, but just that the update traffic doesn't HAVE to be insane.

[bknab]

Originally Posted by lilsparky i kind of doubt people bother posting new versions of their mods unless they're significantly different.

That may be true, but why would I grab a new version if it was a localization update for Chinese, which I don't even speak?

Or for a more specific example, I use pMinimap. Here are P3lim's last two updates:

30100.97:
- Added option to change the number of decimals shown in coords

30100.95:
- Added a custom license

I like how my coordinates are displayed currently, and I have no need to update just for a new license. I'm not editing his code and/or redistributing his AddOn so there is no real reason for me to worry.

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by bknab That may be true, but why would I grab a new version if it was a localization update for Chinese, which I don't even speak? Or for a more specific example, I use pMinimap. Here are P3lim's last two updates: 30100.97: - Added option to change the number of decimals shown in coords 30100.95: - Added a custom license I like how my coordinates are displayed currently, and I have no need to update just for a new license. I'm not editing his code and/or redistributing his AddOn so there is no real reason for me to worry.

sure, but the previous version is weeks old. even if you update every couple of weeks you'd have downloaded at least one of those versions.

i suppose you could keep checking the changelog to see if you really need to update, but i just saved the changelog page's html and it's more bytes than the compressed zip of the addon.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by lilsparky new features, compatibility with other versions of the same mod.

*data entry swarm to finish work order*

But how does a user know there are new features? How do they know it's going to be bug fixes or optimisations ?

There's no guarantee that a new version of a mod is going to have new features or optimizations or indeed anything of any importance what so ever. Often times it's for some new text somewhere in the addon for a language you don't play in. Other times its a tagging change.

Blindly installing software in the hopes of it not causing errors or getting new features and optimisations is a bit silly I feel.

With a UI that's working fine it's a bit like playing Russian Roulette - there's no guarantee that this "new version" isn't going to shot you in the foot.

My way (the one detailed in my sig) is better IMHO. At least I know before even opening the page what changes have been made. Then I can go "meh not interested" and delete that email.

Originally Posted by lilsparky given the drag it is to actually upload a new mod manually, i kind of doubt people bother posting new versions of their mods unless they're significantly different.

No. What people need to free themselves of is the idea that updating your mods has to be hard. It is not hard to update a mod. If you know how to install a mod , you know how to update a mod.

There is that confusing replace dialog that comes up in Vista but once you learn how to use that you should be alright.

Its not hard at all. In my little plan I have I actually timed how long each step takes me. The download-unzip-install part was about 2 minutes for 3-4 mods.

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by honem No. What people need to free themselves of is the idea that updating your mods has to be hard. It is not hard to update a mod. If you know how to install a mod , you know how to update a mod. There is that confusing replace dialog that comes up in Vista but once you learn how to use that you should be alright. Its not hard at all. In my little plan I have I actually timed how long each step takes me. The download-unzip-install part was about 2 minutes for 3-4 mods.

i was talking about the uploading process, not the downloading process. i use wowace to host my svn, so getting a file over here is not a simple process -- it's not difficult, but it requires a few pages of navigation and clicking. i figure that's enough to disincentivize people from uploading every slight change as it's occuring, but maybe not.

[ravagernl]

Originally Posted by lilsparky i was talking about the uploading process, not the downloading process. i use wowace to host my svn, so getting a file over here is not a simple process -- it's not difficult, but it requires a few pages of navigation and clicking. i figure that's enough to disincentivize people from uploading every slight change as it's occuring, but maybe not.

You could try Shadowed's WoWI Mod Uploader

[rdsully]

Originally Posted by lilsparky it's not like wm was using the wowace svn to grab every single update.

But that's exactly what they did for a long time. And kind of what they did until deeplinking was blocked.

i kind of doubt people bother posting new versions of their mods unless they're significantly different.

Most mod authors push all changes they make, and let the user decide if it's significant enough to warrant updating their copy. The problem is that most WM users ( and users of any updater, actually) see a new version posted and update without seeing if the update applies to them.

now maybe there's some significant overhead in checking to see if there's a new version, but that would only be if curse and wowi were trying to avoid deeplinking by shuffling things around so that you had to do some scraping to find stuff. (this is where the wowm claim that they proposed a system to avoid extra traffic rings true to me -- basically saying throw all the mods in one spot so we don't have to churn pages just to tell somebody they're up to date). in a purely co-operative environment, all the wm client would need to do is check with the wm server for the which versions were the latest and where they were located. the server would be notified on new files being uploaded (a la the way wowace pushes to curse). not saying wowi or curse should have felt obliged to play ball or anything, but just that the update traffic doesn't HAVE to be insane.

Why should Curse or WOWI have to configure their servers to make it easy for a 3rd party to use their resources? What you're saying is that if WM knew where the files were they could just go get them. It doesn't solve the issue of using the resources of the hosting sites without providing an opportunity for them to earn any money from those resources to keep them running.


No matter what system WM proposed, the root still goes back to WM has no infrastructure, and would be using resources of the hosting site to do all of this; WM offers no way for it's users to interact with them; WM offers no development community or tools to help authors publish their addons.

[Elesarr]

Originally Posted by rdsully <snip> No matter what system WM proposed, the root still goes back to WM has no infrastructure, and would be using resources of the hosting site to do all of this; WM offers no way for it's users to interact with them; WM offers no development community or tools to help authors publish their addons.

couldn't agree more

the sad truth is that the Matrix users don't care about any of that. their only concern is to get what they want when they want no matter what the cost is as long as they are happy.

why be bothered about community, interaction with other players, getting help when there is an issue with an addon...when all that really matters is that they can play their game 10 mins longer and brag about armor and stuff they can't even wear/produce physically to show off and most people don't really care about since alot of people don't get "gamers"....for me the game is so much more than loot, but maybe I am a minority

i've been lurking the last few days and just watching the threads...it makes me really sad to see all the animosity and aggression

Edit: just had another thought - do the Matrix users realize that with outdated/broken mods being hosted by WM they have no where to go to get support...oh right but wait the Matrix users will just come and yell at the addon authors because its all their fault that WM was stealing and hosting broken mods and its all the addon authors fault.....silly me...

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by Elesarr Edit: just had another thought - do the Matrix users realize that with outdated/broken mods being hosted by WM they have no where to go to get support...oh right but wait the Matrix users will just come and yell at the addon authors because its all their fault that WM was stealing and hosting broken mods and its all the addon authors fault.....silly me...

i think this is the genesis of the wowmatrix client going in and changing the code. ammo posted a bunch of pages of the wowmatrix client in the wow forums. much of it was fixing typos and other simple bug fixes. so i guess wowmatrix has secretly become semi-maintainers of those mods.

[Elesarr]

Originally Posted by lilsparky i think this is the genesis of the wowmatrix client going in and changing the code. ammo posted a bunch of pages of the wowmatrix client in the wow forums. much of it was fixing typos and other simple bug fixes. so i guess wowmatrix has secretly become semi-maintainers of those mods.

I disagree.

I would much prefer the author to address the issues as s/he knows the mod: WM doesn't (I seriously doubt they sit down and learn how each mod works they host then collaborate with the actual author to ensure any changes they make are in guidance with the official UI changes posted by blizzard - ever heard of TAINT....) and I do not appreciate ANY app doing things on my computer that I am not aware of - WM also messes with the registry settings of the TCP/IP packets.

Any changes made to an addon need to be approved by the addon author with his or her permission to rehost somewhere else - Matrix fails completely in that regard - and since the addon authors prefer to maintain their addons with the tools provided by WOWI and Curse that is where I want to get my addons. If there is an updater fine, if not I spent the first 3 years playing this game manually updating 100+ addons and lost little time playing I play WoW in english - I don't need every single localization update that is put out - its not a new feature for the mod it is so other people can use it and enjoy it as well.

Its a sad day when people are too bothered to download, unzip a file and copy it somewhere.

Thanks but no thanks.

And before you accuse me of just spouting stuff I used to use Matrix...ashamed to admit it....once I found out what they were actually doing to my computer let alone to the OFFICIAL addon sites i dropped it like the leprous creature that it is.

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by Elesarr I disagree. I would much prefer the author to address the issues as s/he knows the mod: WM doesn't (I seriously doubt they sit down and learn how each mod works they host then collaborate with the actual author to ensure any changes they make are in guidance with the official UI changes posted by blizzard - ever heard of TAINT....) and I do not appreciate ANY app doing things on my computer that I am not aware of - WM also messes with the registry settings of the TCP/IP packets.

sure, but the extent of the edits weren't things like reworking an algorithm so much as fixing things like typos or adding missing arguments for api changes -- stuff that causes a mod to actually pop and error rather than simply not do what it's supposed to.

i don't think wowmatrix was a panacea or anything -- it had a lot of issues, but it still did one thing very, very well. and that one thing is something a lot of people appreciate. i personally look at it as a competition thing -- the more competition we have between companies serving up addons, the better the users of those addons will be treated as a way to get their support.

i'm hopeful that the wowi updater will work well. i think wowi is a little more "service oriented" than curse is. i absolutely love the wowace side of curse, but the curse side of curse blows chunks. i've tried the curse client a few times and every time i'm underwhelmed. guess we'll see how things pan out.

[Yhor]

How many threads will the future hold in order to .

I hope WM goes bankrupt and they have to eat the above dead horse. Now that's something I haven't read yet.

[Psychophan7]

Originally Posted by lilsparky sure, but the extent of the edits weren't things like reworking an algorithm so much as fixing things like typos or adding missing arguments for api changes -- stuff that causes a mod to actually pop and error rather than simply not do what it's supposed to.

What's the quote? Something like "one mans typo is another mans code feature" or similar?

If I wrote an addon that calls function 'origen' and WM fixes that, then who is to say if they are correcting a typo or screwing my code? I might have written another addon that tries to call 'origen' from the other addon (can addons do that?) but WM went and fudged it by correcting my "typo" and turning it into 'origin'. Great, now theres compatibility issues between my own mods because WM dipped their dirty hands into my cookie jar. These are my cookies, dammit, so hands off! But my end users wouldn't know there's now an issue because WM went and messed with their WTF file to suppress the LUA errors.

But I'm not an addon author, so my cookie jar is safe... for now.

[Tristanian]

Originally Posted by lilsparky sure, but the extent of the edits weren't things like reworking an algorithm so much as fixing things like typos or adding missing arguments for api changes -- stuff that causes a mod to actually pop and error rather than simply not do what it's supposed to.

The extend of the edits is immaterial. An addon updater application has no business modifying anything in the original addon files, whether its intentions are good or bad, especially without explicit permission from the author, assuming that the addon in question is properly maintained. An updater's job is to properly manage the download and installation of addons, period.

[Torhal]

Originally Posted by lilsparky sure, but the extent of the edits weren't things like reworking an algorithm so much as fixing things like typos or adding missing arguments for api changes -- stuff that causes a mod to actually pop and error rather than simply not do what it's supposed to.

This is only partially correct. The version string in the TOC files were also edited to match the current WoW build, even if the AddOn hadn't been updated to use the more recent APIs. Also, Lua errors were turned off in Config.WTF so the end-user never knew that they were occurring. In essence, they were forcing AddOns which weren't actually updated for the current version to run in the current version and fail silently.

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by rdsully But that's exactly what they did for a long time. And kind of what they did until deeplinking was blocked.

i'm talking about wowace specifically. the only time wowm pulled off of wowace is when wowace had "open hosting" so to speak. there were lots of one-click updaters and the nature of wowace was that mods got updated frequently because it was primarily a development site. now authors have to specifically tag new releases for them to be pushed to curse or be recognized by the curse client. if authors are still tagging every release, then it's more of an author problem than a user problem.

Most mod authors push all changes they make, and let the user decide if it's significant enough to warrant updating their copy. The problem is that most WM users ( and users of any updater, actually) see a new version posted and update without seeing if the update applies to them.

i guess it's just two different philosophies on updates. i prefer to download updates as they become available rather than waiting to discover i need them -- whether it's wow addons or windows updates. i understand some people don't like doing it that way. i'd hesitate to say that one is the good way and one is the bad way.

i'm sitting in front of a $1000 piece of machinery -- why not let it do the work for me?

Why should Curse or WOWI have to configure their servers to make it easy for a 3rd party to use their resources? What you're saying is that if WM knew where the files were they could just go get them. It doesn't solve the issue of using the resources of the hosting sites without providing an opportunity for them to earn any money from those resources to keep them running.

i was clear to say that i didn't think they should feel obliged to make it easy for wowmatrix, but it as it relates to the specifics of the wowm faq it makes perfect sense. i mean how much extra data is churned by the process of wowmatrix having to scrape through pages trying to get at the zip file? i suspect it's not insignificant. i wouldn't be surprised to learn that 75% of the traffic generated is simply discarded html pages. that would put a whole different spin on the claim that wowmatrix's offer for bandwidth payment was an insult. but maybe i'm wrong -- perhaps the files were more accessible than that (scraping every time to locate the files) i dunno. i would expect things to have been more streamlined, but the faq mentioned the streamlining process so perhaps in curse's desire to keep updaters away they simply generated more traffic for themselves.

No matter what system WM proposed, the root still goes back to WM has no infrastructure, and would be using resources of the hosting site to do all of this; WM offers no way for it's users to interact with them; WM offers no development community or tools to help authors publish their addons.

the bandwidth criticism is absolutely valid, tho wowm says they tried to address this. could be a load, of course, but curse at least says they paid lip service to the idea of paying, so the question becomes a matter of how much they were offering.

but nobody wants wowmatrix to actually have forums or pages for questions and bug reports. hell, i find two is too many, honestly. i'd rather have a single place where i address issues and keep people informed of planned updates and known issues. why create an additional location to have to check periodically and duplicate effort to keep updated? wowmatrix was designed as a delivery tool. all the other stuff is already handled very well by other sites.

[rdsully]

Originally Posted by lilsparky i was clear to say that i didn't think they should feel obliged to make it easy for wowmatrix, but it as it relates to the specifics of the wowm faq it makes perfect sense. i mean how much extra data is churned by the process of wowmatrix having to scrape through pages trying to get at the zip file? i suspect it's not insignificant.

Somewhere it was said that bandwidth on curse went down by almost 50% and WoWI went down by almost 30%. That's a lot of bandwidth being used to generate ad revenue for WM, while using the resources of Curse/WoWI.

the bandwidth criticism is absolutely valid, tho wowm says they tried to address this. could be a load, of course, but curse at least says they paid lip service to the idea of paying, so the question becomes a matter of how much they were offering.

WoWI has stated that WM never talked to them at all about it, or anything else. Somewhere (probably on the Curse forums, I think I read the offer was less than 5% of the cost of the bandwidth being used by WM).

but nobody wants wowmatrix to actually have forums or pages for questions and bug reports. hell, i find two is too many, honestly. i'd rather have a single place where i address issues and keep people informed of planned updates and known issues. why create an additional location to have to check periodically and duplicate effort to keep updated? wowmatrix was designed as a delivery tool. all the other stuff is already handled very well by other sites.

Except that they are delivering out of date versions of mods and editing mods, all of which generate tons of bug reports for authors that have already been fixed in current versions. While the users might go to Curse or WoWI to report the bugs, they didn't get the mod from there, but got it from WM, creating a lot of wasted effort by the authors that take up time that could be used making improvements or updates.

[Seerah]

Originally Posted by rdsully Somewhere it was said that bandwidth on curse went down by almost 30% and WoWI went down by almost 50%. That's a lot of bandwidth being used to generate ad revenue for WM, while using the resources of Curse/WoWI.

Fixed. (Ours went down by half.)

[rdsully]

Originally Posted by Seerah Fixed. (Ours went down by half.)

oops. In my head when I typed that, I had it right. My fingers just didn't cooperate