WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[guice]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Why would we not have a choice? Because other sites were going to be implementing theirs today, whether we did or not. If we didn't go ahead with ours today as well, we wouldn't be running at all today. They (WowMatrix) would have jumped from splitting their scraping of both sites to scraping only one site, our site, since they couldn't access the other one. We'd be down today, completely and totally, no one would be able to get to our site at all. How does that help anyone? We are truly sorry that we had to do this today when we couldn't offer another alternative. We really would have preferred to wait. We're sorry that it had to happen this way. I don't know what else to say beyond that.

Think of the publicity you could have gotten!
Sure, the site may have gone down, but then you would have had a good excuse, and a torch to burn the other sites with. :lol:
Plus, WoWMatrix scrapes all sites at once. So the blocking of one site would have only caused one less site scrape. It technically wouldn't have increased your traffic any bit.

Originally Posted by Shirik CDNs are not free. Would you like to front the money for it? For those of you that are unaware: WoWI is run through very few servers. In fact, there is no rotation. We'd love to have a massive server farm, but that costs money. Money that, quite frankly, WoWMatrix is cutting into.

Didn't imply free. I did imply cheep, as I did mention "sole developer" apps are using Amazon S3 services. Heck, I think they may actually have a free option, but may be too small for a site of this nature.
http://aws.amazon.com/s3/#pricing
http://calculator.s3.amazonaws.com/calc5.html

50 gb output per month (I think that more than covers you, right?) is not even $15/mnth. Need me to take the bill? :lol:
Oh, I hit $20 with 75g storage, 50g output, 1g input and 10000 requests per month. 10g input put me at $21.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Why would we not have a choice? Because other sites were going to be implementing theirs today, whether we did or not. If we didn't go ahead with ours today as well, we wouldn't be running at all today. They (WowMatrix) would have jumped from splitting their scraping of both sites to scraping only one site, our site, since they couldn't access the other one. We'd be down today, completely and totally, no one would be able to get to our site at all. How does that help anyone?

Oh, hey, that reminds me... what's up with incgamers? *evil grin*

*edit* oh they're still online, odd that.

[Dolby]

We max our gigabit pipe on our dedicated file server when WM is enabled.

[guice]

Originally Posted by Dolby Who would pay for the CDN? I can't say I've reserched it but bandwidth is bandwidth and I'm sure its expensive. Its actually our php server not able to keep up with them scraping our pages for every addon a user has. Its basically like a ddos right now. I wouldnt have had much of a problem giving them an xml feed if they contacted us and removed the ads from their patcher. Keep in mind what we have done is only a temporary solution to try and stay a float. Everything you said is easier said then done and takes time. I'm sure a solution can be found though.

Oh, I agree with you and I can certainly understand that. Your community does, too. Every path, people expect interface sites to have troubles due to traffic. The community knows it's ran off small servers, not farms (like Curse who happens to have IGE backing).

It's just sad to see such measures taken. A better solution, as I outlined across a couple posts, could have been done in less time than it would have taken to build your own updater (which, again, is effectively a "DRM" to add-on updating).

Bandwidth, actually, is cheep. The only reason is seems expensive is purely cause of major ISPs (AT&T, TWC, Comcast) over inflating their "problems." The reality is they have plenty of bandwidth. The internet has plenty of bandwidth and these CDNs know it.

[guice]

Originally Posted by Dolby We max our gigabit pipe on our dedicated file server when WM is enabled.

That's cause, as you said, they have to scrape all the pages. It's just pure text though, aside from the actual downloading of the files. The file downloads could be alleviated with a CDN backing. It's a good option. I would research into it a lot more. Prices aren't nearly as bad as you expect.

At my work place (we happen to host Pepsi.com as well as a few other major sites) we use Akamai and are moving towards a Akamai/Nirvanix hybrid. The only reason I brought up S3 is because I've seen a lot of small developers use it. Judging from their prices, I can see why. And S3 is suppose to be a competitor to Nirvanix and Akamai? I wonder how their prices compare.

[guice]

Well, it's now my bed time (well past it really). Good talking with ya again Dobly.

Just an fyi, too, if you used a standard browser request string block (since that's about the only way to block W-M), they are going to get around it -- and then you'll stuck in a whack-a-mole game. Just look how Hulu vs Boxee is turning out. You can't win that game. I'd be very cautious heading down this route. There's no win in sight for WoWI if you do.

[Dolby]

No they aren't maxing the php servers pipe. They are still scrapeing us, I cant stop that.

[Mithan]

No offense to Curse and WoW Interface, but I think you guys are going about this wrong.

Yes, the bandwidth is being stolen (and that is the only legitimate argument here) but you guys need to realize this is the internet and people are not going to care much about pleas on people's morality. Ask the Movie and Music Industry if you do not believe me....


That being said, I am a user of WOW Matrix:
Why do I use WoW Matrix?
Because it is DAMN GOOD at what it does.

And therein lies the answer.

Curse's Problem is easy to solve:
All they need to do is improve the Curse Downloader to be competitive and better to WoW Matrix. This can easily be done by telling the programmer to evaluate the software and make appropriate changes. If the programmer suffers from some superiority complex, fire him and find somebody who will make the Curse'd Software better.



As for WoW Interface, I don't know what to tell you guys. I love your site, but it becomes obsolete with a good downloader.

My advice is to perhaps work out a deal with WoW Matrix where you guys get full credit and traffic? Maybe they can even disable and forward the WoW matrix search function directly to the website. Hell, do that and you might even beat out Curse'ed.



Either way, both websites here are a victim of their success and are being taken advantage off based on real obvious weaknesses, that CAN be improved. For Curse'ed, it is the ****ty downloader (in comparrison), for WoW Interface, it is the lack of a downloader.

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by Mithan No offense to Curse and WoW Interface, but I think you guys are going about this wrong. Yes, the bandwidth is being stolen (and that is the only legitimate argument here) but you guys need to realize this is the internet and people are not going to care much about pleas on people's morality. Ask the Movie and Music Industry if you do not believe me.... That being said, I am a user of WOW Matrix: Why do I use WoW Matrix? Because it is DAMN GOOD at what it does. And therein lies the answer. Curse's Problem is easy to solve: All they need to do is improve the Curse Downloader to be competitive and better to WoW Matrix. This can easily be done by telling the programmer to evaluate the software and make appropriate changes. If the programmer suffers from some superiority complex, fire him and find somebody who will make the Curse'd Software better. As for WoW Interface, I don't know what to tell you guys. I love your site, but it becomes obsolete with a good downloader. My advice is to perhaps work out a deal with WoW Matrix where you guys get full credit and traffic? Maybe they can even disable and forward the WoW matrix search function directly to the website. Hell, do that and you might even beat out Curse'ed. Either way, both websites here are a victim of their success and are being taken advantage off based on real obvious weaknesses, that CAN be improved. For Curse'ed, it is the ****ty downloader (in comparrison), for WoW Interface, it is the lack of a downloader.

OR, people can continue to support Wowmatrix, causing the developers of the 'official' downloaders to waste their time attempting to save their site.

Bottom line, if you continue to support Wowmatrix, you'll continue to have problems. And really, if the people who are supporting them cry, why should the people who's time is being wasted even care? Apparently this website still cares, which is something I don't see the complainers understanding.

[Seerah]

Originally Posted by guice 50 gb output per month (I think that more than covers you, right?) is not even $15/mnth. Need me to take the bill? :lol: Oh, I hit $20 with 75g storage, 50g output, 1g input and 10000 requests per month. 10g input put me at $21.

If I had been drinking something when I read this, I'm sure that it would have come out of my nose.

We can easily break 50GB in a non-patch week. We currently have 6548 users online. Most ever is listed as 40,644 when 3.0 hit. And that's not the real actual number. Not to mention that (as Dolby already mentioned) wowmatrix is still scraping the site looking for updates that it can access.

[Tuhljin]

Originally Posted by Mithan Yes, the bandwidth is being stolen (and that is the only legitimate argument here) but you guys need to realize this is the internet and people are not going to care much about pleas on people's morality. Ask the Movie and Music Industry if you do not believe me.... That being said, I am a user of WOW Matrix: Why do I use WoW Matrix? Because it is DAMN GOOD at what it does.

Yet again, "The end justifies the means." Note how he's not at all ashamed to admit he supports something he knows is unethical. Shame isn't the horrible thing that ought to be abolished so many people make it out to be; it's one of many varieties of glue meant to hold society together.

Now, if you want to make an argument based solely on pragmatism, talking about what people are going to do regardless of what they ought to do, fine, but at least get some principles for yourself, guy.

But I guess I'm just a self-righteous jerk for daring point these things out. /sigh

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Republic Legitimate sites are not obligated to cater to thieves. You're actually wrong on many points, but I'll address one - advertising revenue is not impacted by ad blockers. From a server perspective, the ads are still considered "viewed" because of the hit on their hosted page. Again, it's similar to a TV viewer ignoring the commercials and going to the bathroom or getting a snack. You are not obligated to view the ad in order for the network to have already been compensated for running the ad.

You must not deal with web advertising much, or you would know that you are completely, COMPLETELY, wrong about how it works.

The ad revenue is not based off the publisher's server logs of page loads, not by any stretch. They are based off of the ad network/advertisers system recording them, and the way ad blockers work, the user NEVER hits those servers, so no credit is given.

I will just ignore the rest of your post, it is just the normal arrogance that those who think this move was smart have been posting in this thread continuously.

I, for one, was not blocking ads on WoWI, I am now.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Jalandar I, for one, was not blocking ads on WoWI, I am now.

Because of a user on the site who is not affiliated with the site's staff at all? /golfclap

[Mithan]

Originally Posted by Tuhljin Yet again, "The end justifies the means." Note how he's not at all ashamed to admit he supports something he knows is unethical. Shame isn't the horrible thing that ought to be abolished so many people make it out to be; it's one of many varieties of glue meant to hold society together. Now, if you want to make an argument based solely on pragmatism, talking about what people are going to do regardless of what they ought to do, fine, but at least get some principles for yourself, guy. But I guess I'm just a self-righteous jerk for daring point these things out. /sigh

Sigh.

You are missing the point totally and instead falling back on personal attacks.

[Tuhljin]

Personal attack? Maybe I could be more diplomatic about it, but I'm not doing this to flame. I'm pointing out that WM users (not counting those that are ignorant of the dubious things that WM and its team do) tend to be dismissive of arguments that relate to ethics because, as I've posted in this thread several times, they think "the end justifies the means" (which you should have learned in school is simply not the case). Show me where I'm wrong.

[Jalandar]

As a programmer, I figured out a solution to this new blocking within about 10 minutes of brain storming. A solution that would put a slight amount of additional burden on the wowmatrix user (very slight), and would make your entire method moot. I'm sure the wowmatrix people can come up with a solution easily as well.

Maybe if instead of coming at them as if they are doing something hugely wrong, come at them from the angle that they are doing something RIGHT. Something that neither site has been able to do right.

From that approach you could come up with APIs for working with them, and to help minimize the bandwidth impact you claim they lay on you. You could come up with ways to promote the authors more in the client with them, to promote your site for the hosting of the addons. Provide a "support" link that links to addon's forums on WoWI for example.

Don't claim they are not open to this, until you started this very poorly thought out "solution" they had even added donation links on the window for addon authors who had them. They have shown they will make changes based on valid criticisms like that.

What amazes me the most is that you approached them with the expectation that they should pay you. Frankly, you should be paying them, and bringing them into closer cooperation with you.

WoWMatrix did it very good, and did it right. You have nothing that can even come close to comparing to it. They not only provided updates in a timely and easy to use fashion, they provided assistance that isn't available to users going to the sites themselves, such as notification of known conflicts with popular mods, notification of multiple forks of a mod, and the ability to select which one the user will have installed/updated. Things that no other updater provides or has ever provided.

Instead you people try to criminalize them for making up for your own site's shortcomings, and then lash out at them in a way that hurts the end users more than it hurts them. And then you react with an arrogance that frankly amazes me when those users come here and express their frustration.

Shame on you. I expected better from this site.

I understand you are getting a lot of heat, and thus the arrogant/angry replies come easily, but the fact that you are getting so many, and so vociferously, should be a clear sign that you didn't do this in a responsible fashion.

It's time for WoWI to rethink their position on this, and rethink their approach.

Don't let Curse drag you down, they have an axe to grind and want people to use their update client (which is the best example of how NOT to program an updater I could imagine, and if that was the best example of his work, would convince me to never hire Kael as a programmer for anything that would go into an end user's hands).

I am hesitant about writing this post, because I see that the mods are using the ban feature a little too easily right now in my opinion. But someone needed to say it.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Jalandar I am hesitant about writing this post, because I see that the mods are using the ban feature a little too easily right now in my opinion. But someone needed to say it.

Many have said it, and, if you have bothered to read the posts, you would see that WoWMatrix WAS contacted, and was not willing to discuss cooperation. Get over it.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Vyper Many have, and, if you have bothered to read the posts, you would see that WoWI WAS contacted, and was not willing to discuss cooperation. Get over it.

Might I suggest you actually read the entire post you are replying to, instead of just skimming them for things to nit pick at, so you don't make the mistake you just made.

My criticism was the WAY they approached them, and the attitude they had in their approach.

Like WoWMatrix is the bad guy and somehow OWES them something.

WoWI has a lot they could learn from WoWMatrix, and should approach them from that perspective, one of mutual cooperation, not "you owe us, so pay up."

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Jalandar I am hesitant about writing this post, because I see that the mods are using the ban feature a little too easily right now in my opinion. But someone needed to say it.

We aren't banning people. You are misinformed. Those that have been doing nothing but attacking others personally have been getting 1 day vacations. The only posts that have been removed are those that are nothing more than personal attacks. And, for the record, that's been being done to those that are "supporting" us in this, as well, not just those that are "against" us (since people want to view each other as taking sides).

(And yes, I know I need to go through the thread and clean up some more - it's hard to keep up with everything right now, sorry.)

Originally Posted by Vyper Many have, and, if you have bothered to read the posts, you would see that WoWI WAS contacted, and was not willing to discuss cooperation. Get over it.

Vyper ... whowhahuh? Your post makes no sense.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Jalandar Might I suggest you actually read the entire post you are replying to, instead of just skimming them for things to nit pick at, so you don't make the mistake you just made. My criticism was the WAY they approached them, and the attitude they had in their approach. Like WoWMatrix is the bad guy and somehow OWES them something. WoWI has a lot they could learn from WoWMatrix, and should approach them from that perspective, one of mutual cooperation, not "you owe us, so pay up."

I'm sorry, but where do you see us saying that owe us anything? Where are we (WoWI) arrogant? Where do you see us calling them criminals? You don't, because we haven't. Please don't confuse the posts of some users as the posts of our volunteer staff.