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06-30-09, 10:26 PM   #1
jacob18d
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Why Java?

While I don't expect this to change anytime in the future, but is there any reasoning for Java?

Honestly, I've never experienced anything but pain in my &$^ because of Java. It's the bane of existence IMO, and after spending an hour troubleshooting what isn't working with the MMO Minion installer, I'm no more impressed with it.

I hope, that in the future if you develop another program for the public it's in something less annoying to the end user then Java. Honestly, I avoided installing Java for almost 3 years since windows stopped shipping with it, and would love to be able to avoid it forever.
 
06-30-09, 10:43 PM   #2
Syxx
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I agree and the reason why I probably won't be using Minion for my addon updating. I've done it manually since they shutdown WAU anyhow so it's not that big a deal to me but I've never had anything but nightmares with java in general.

I know when I heard WoWI was making an updater I was excited and was hoping for something similar to WAU or even WoWMatrix (Both just worked) but I guess Java was the choice for them.
 
06-30-09, 10:54 PM   #3
ScytheBlade1
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It may be a bit late for sentiment, but if you are having issues installing, feel free to post here and ask a question. Or on the bug tracker.

I also just posted a FAQ detailing the most common installation/usage problems. I'd be willing to bet your problem was covered in there, though I may be wrong.

Java was chosen because it was (1) known and (2) compared to everything else, required very little work to get functional cross-platform. As someone who exclusively runs 64-bit linux, I'm pleased it was chosen.

I know when I heard WoWI was making an updater I was excited and was hoping for something similar to WAU or even WoWMatrix (Both just worked) but I guess Java was the choice for them.
The language is rarely if ever the reason behind a program working or not. Admittedly, for whatever reason, Java has presented itself with a wide array of basic functionality issues in terms of installation and running, but seriously - read this and I bet your problem would be covered.
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06-30-09, 11:06 PM   #4
Syxx
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Don't worry, I won't be voicing my opinions of Java anymore even if I wasn't the OP.

The language is rarely if ever the reason behind a program working or not. Admittedly, for whatever reason, Java has presented itself with a wide array of basic functionality issues in terms of installation and running, but seriously - read this and I bet your problem would be covered.
I find the language has a lot to do with the programming running or not correctly as well as the coder and a million other variables.
I wasn't calling into question anyone's manhood or anything I was just speaking from my experience with Java in general (Not programming it but being an end user) and my experience with computers and dealing with end users.
Thank you for the link but I never said I was having an issue with Minion I was simply seconding the OPs opinions on the matter. When I installed Minion to try it out I fixed my issues with it fine because I've had experience with Java and Suns ridiculous website.
I do understand the reason for choosing it as the base but mainly, I just do NOT like Java. There I said it.
 
06-30-09, 11:47 PM   #5
jacob18d
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Originally Posted by ScytheBlade1 View Post
The language is rarely if ever the reason behind a program working or not. Admittedly, for whatever reason, Java has presented itself with a wide array of basic functionality issues in terms of installation and running, but seriously - read this and I bet your problem would be covered.
I've already been able to install the updater. The problem is that you shouldn't HAVE to read that to install a program such as this. It should just work, unless you have something grossly wrong with your computer.

I also don't typically use addon updaters anyway. There are too many issues I find that come into play with doing a bulk update, without reading patch notes, notes on the addon's page, etc, you are bound to not quite get what you want, but I can say for a fact, regardless of my opinion on updaters, and no matter how well this one get's by those kinds of problems, I won't use this one because of Java.

Last edited by jacob18d : 06-30-09 at 11:49 PM. Reason: Additional information.
 
07-01-09, 12:14 PM   #6
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As a side note windows 7 will come with java pre-installed.
 
07-01-09, 12:27 PM   #7
ScytheBlade1
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Originally Posted by jacob18d View Post
It should just work, unless you have something grossly wrong with your computer.
To be blunt, assuming you can go to java.com and click a button, that is already the case.

Originally Posted by jacob18d View Post
I won't use this one because of Java.
It's a good thing you don't have to, then. It won't be rewritten in another language just to make it into something other than a java app.
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07-01-09, 12:53 PM   #8
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To be blunt, assuming you can go to java.com and click a button, that is already the case.
The existence of the FAQ proves otherwise.
 
07-01-09, 01:02 PM   #9
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Nearly every issue in that FAQ revolves around other applications taking the .jar extension or a lack of a browser extension - both of which are installed properly by simply (re)installing Java.

Simply installing winrar can remove the .jar file association.

The existence of the FAQ is to fix those common, yet simple issues. Nearly every item in the FAQ is resolved by simply reinstalling Java.
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<Thunder_Child> ah, nothing makes me think of WoW more than seeing 15 different addons telling me i dont know how to play
<End> Well, I'm not an AddOn, but you don't know how to play
--
<Iriel> does your 'therapy' involve pitchforks and boiling oil?
 
07-01-09, 02:06 PM   #10
ßlink
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cross platform
 
07-01-09, 03:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by jacob18d View Post
I've already been able to install the updater. The problem is that you shouldn't HAVE to read that to install a program such as this. It should just work, unless you have something grossly wrong with your computer.
It did just work for me. And 99% of the other users I would bet. Like it or not, you can NEVER make a program just work for 100% of users.

As for Java, I've been programming in it for the past 8 years and haven't seen anyone with a Java related problem (with the exception of people running OpenJDK, or some other spin, instead of Sun Java). That doesn't mean you haven't had problems, it's just an observation that at least in my experience, Java doesn't cause any more of a problem for end users than any other language.

Edit: As for why Java:
A) Almost all users have it
B) Works transparently across almost all platforms.
 
07-01-09, 05:16 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by jacob18d View Post
I've already been able to install the updater. The problem is that you shouldn't HAVE to read that to install a program such as this. It should just work, unless you have something grossly wrong with your computer.

I also don't typically use addon updaters anyway. There are too many issues I find that come into play with doing a bulk update, without reading patch notes, notes on the addon's page, etc, you are bound to not quite get what you want, but I can say for a fact, regardless of my opinion on updaters, and no matter how well this one get's by those kinds of problems, I won't use this one because of Java.
If Java won't work on your computer, imo something is grossly wrong with it (user error potential aside).

To sum up, you will not be using this program because you don't normally use these types of programs and also because it's Java. Is anyone really at a loss here? Seems to me the end result of your posting is advertising the fact your machine can't run Java. Other than that, it appears to be a win/win situation. Congratulations.
 
07-05-09, 02:10 PM   #13
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Java is a hell of a lot easier for people to code modules in. Not simply because of the simplicity of the language, but because bundling JARs is a lot easier than cross-platform DLLs. On top of that, a security model is possible to implement -- it is literally impossible to secure modules unless a scripting language like Lua were to be used.

The other reasons have already been touched.

I would love to hear valid reasons against Java, as I haven't heard one yet. And before it comes up, speed is not a valid concern as Java's Hotspot compiler is approaching the speeds of native code these days. On a similar note, .NET is also bytecode and operates in the same way, and I am willing to bet the majority of Windows applications right now are actually .NET, not native.
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07-06-09, 03:33 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Shirik View Post
and I am willing to bet the majority of Windows applications right now are actually .NET, not native.
All the software development firms I've been looking into have a strong .NET influence, I'm fairly certain you are correct
 
07-06-09, 07:33 AM   #15
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As its been said Java is 1) Easy to use. 2) Openly available to both Mac and PC users. 3) Simple to download and use. The only thing honestly stopping you is you choosing yourself not to install the program. Only a very small number of users have had issues with the Java installer and those issues get looked into by the Dev team.
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07-06-09, 11:34 AM   #16
DonCorneo
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Just a note: Windows stopped shipping with Java simple because MS was changing the source and openning it up to viruses and hacks. There was also all the ho-ha with IE being "part" of Windows, so MS decided that its best course of action was to let Sun take back the reins. Java was Licensed to MS, not a MS product.
MS cut a lot of costs letting Sun control the source instead of MS fiddling with it.
As posted, Java simply works, unless YOU have done something to your computer that keeps it from working. It can be from installing other lesser programs to replace Java to changing settings.
WoWMatrix is also Java based if I recall properly.
 
07-06-09, 02:15 PM   #17
Praesagus
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Originally Posted by DonCorneo View Post
openning it up to viruses and hacks.
HAHAHAHA Wondered when the not true but lets hijack this topic to bash MS statements would arrive

 
07-06-09, 06:21 PM   #18
ScytheBlade1
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I'm actually going to go with option D, "Lock the thread."

Everything that was needed to be said has been said, and this thread can really only go downhill from here.
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<Thunder_Child> ah, nothing makes me think of WoW more than seeing 15 different addons telling me i dont know how to play
<End> Well, I'm not an AddOn, but you don't know how to play
--
<Iriel> does your 'therapy' involve pitchforks and boiling oil?
 

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