WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 31

spiel2001 · 03-27-09, 11:50 AM

So I presume you have no problem with me standing in your front yard waving an AK-47 around and shouting that I'm thinking about shooting you between the eyes... you're content to wait until I pull the trigger to feel a sense of alarm?

(yaay... my creative "let's make an analogy" juices are flowing again ~grin~)

Tuhljin · 03-27-09, 11:52 AM

Your anger is understandable, though misdirected. Your analogy is not. Not because I don't know what you're saying, but because it's a gross mischaracterization of the situation.

Satrina · 03-27-09, 12:06 PM

If it were steeped in legalese, it'd be a license agreement and there would be no problems. And, the entire effect we're trying to achieve is to get it "better spelled out" and that's all (I make no claim for people who want to make money from their addons.)

Originally Posted by Tuhljin

Just because it mentions legal action doesn't mean that avenue is available for all infractions or that it will be pursued zealously.

Really? I wonder what MDY would think of your statement. Do I think Blizzard wants to sue addon authors? No, I've already said that in several places. Assuming that Blizzard will not resort to legal action if they deem it necessary is wishful thinking.

It's a bit boggling that any professional developer would not have at least a double-take at this - but maybe you're not.

Satrina · 03-27-09, 12:11 PM

And if you don't like my take on it, how about this guy's

Originally Posted by Fred von Lohmann

I agree that this certainly will have a chilling effect on the developer community, and that may have been Blizzard's purpose. As applied to independent developers who never entered into any contractual obligations with Blizzard, and whose plug-ins do not cause WoW players to breach their EULAs with Blizzard, I don't really see a strong legal basis for these "policies." But that won't necessarily stop Blizzard from suing a developer in an attempt to push the boundaries of the law. We won't know what Blizzard's theories are (infringement, DMCA circumvention, tortious interference with contract, trespass to chattel, breach of contract?) until they sue. Nothing here is meant to be legal advice to any particular developer, of course -- consult with your own attorney if you intend to breach the "policies" and are worried about legal risks.

(source)

Tuhljin · 03-27-09, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Satrina

It's a bit boggling that any professional developer would not have at least a double-take at this - but maybe you're not.

I already did my back-and-forth thinking on the subject, including reading others' responses (including that which you just quoted), before I made my post. And yes, I code for a living. I simply don't see Blizzard as some evil entity that's out to get me and have enough experience with legal matters to know that this sort of thing (preventing others from making money off of your core work) is pretty standard fare.

***Cairenn*** · 03-27-09, 12:13 PM

Just a friendly reminder to keep it civilized and non-personal, guys and gals. Otherwise I'll have to get

and then I'll be forced to

again.

Satrina · 03-27-09, 12:19 PM

(Hi Cair, I am being good, honest!)

Originally Posted by Tuhljin

I simply don't see Blizzard as some evil entity that's out to get me and have enough experience with legal matters to know that this sort of thing (preventing others from making money off of your core work) is pretty standard fare.

Oh, agreed definitely. The problem with the threat of legal action is of course that it's always there and you cannot predict what may happen. I'd just really like to be sure that there isn't a major upheaval in copyright law if by some chance they ever did get to court on it! Not to mention that if #1 really is simply non-enforceable and would simply get thrown out, it's really in Blizzard's best interests to fix it up to something that is enforceable.

spiel2001 · 03-27-09, 12:19 PM

Whip me! Beat me! Make me write bad checks baby!

~grin~

PS: There was ZERO (0) anger in my post... the fact that you read anger into says something all by itself. And it is absolutely analogous if a billion dollar company threatening to sue a lowly programmer can be viewed as the equivalent of someone waving an AK-47 under your nose -- they are both a threat of harm that may occur but of no danger whatsoever until the trigger is pulled.

***Cairenn*** · 03-27-09, 12:22 PM

I know you guys are behaving. I just pop in every so often to remind people to keep being good and that I am watching to make sure.

I have no problem with you guys continuing to discuss it, otherwise the thread would be locked. I just remind every now and then. Don't take my post as anything more than that.

Tuhljin · 03-27-09, 12:39 PM

Look, I do not want to get into an argument with you, spiel, and not just because Cairenn says not to (though that's a good enough reason there

). I only post this now so as to be perfectly clear.

You have every reason to be passionate about this, and that's fine, but don't think I didn't catch the not-so-subtle implication of "the fact that you read anger into says something." I read anger because of several factors, such as my view that that was far out of proportion and directed at me in a confrontational manner, that this change was only recently announced so uncertainty reigns more now than is normal, and, to be quite frank (and I don't mean to be too personal here, just to explain myself), the tone of some of your previous posts (I may actually be mistaken there) and that, judging by your signature, you're apparently the type of person that will single out specific individuals for ridicule for weeks. I think I've already addressed what you're saying in a calm and reasonable manner in my previous posts here. If you see it differently, fine, that's your right. In hopes of not escalating this, that's all I'll say on this specific facet of the matter for now.

Tekkub · 03-27-09, 12:42 PM

I see you all typing there, but all I read is "blah blah blah"

*hides*

spiel2001 · 03-27-09, 01:00 PM

If it matters any, my analogy wasn't a shot (no pun intended) across anyone's bow. I was thinking about it, and made the analogy, specifically from the point of view of that being how *I* feel about what Bliz is doing to *me* -- this policy is the threat, legal action is the AK-47 and I'm the guy who doesn't want to wait and see if they're going to pull the trigger or wander off muttering to themselves and have another beer.

I know I can be intense, and I know I can be bullheaded, but I'm actually a very easy going guy and get along with pretty much everyone... I very rarely ever get personal in my exchanges with others online and if/when I do, there will be zero doubt in your mind ~smile~

As for the weeks of public ridicule... if you knew the whole story, you would understand. It is not undeserved.

Satrina · 03-27-09, 01:14 PM

Tekkub just needs to degauss his screen and wipe his glasses!

For what it's worth, I made a practical example: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...470931&sid=1#7

Torhal · 03-27-09, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Tekkub

I see you all typing there, but all I read is "blah blah blah"

*hides*

I don't even see that. I hear Charlie Brown's teacher "talking".

Tekkub · 03-27-09, 03:44 PM

lol

wha wha wha wha

**Shirik** · 03-27-09, 03:52 PM

This has been requested several times, now, guys. Let's please keep this thread on topic. I'd like to think that this thread was more effective at discussing points than the one on the Blizzard forums, and we'd like to keep it that way.

spiel2001 · 03-27-09, 05:18 PM

I thought I would post this over here since someone on the WoW UI forum started an analogy thread and I know how much my analogies have entertained folks here (grin) -- so here's my latest one for you...

--------------------------

Here's the best analogy I've been able to come up with so far... this one came to me as I was talking one on one in RL with another programmer on the subject at work this afternoon.

Here's the deal... addons are to World of Warcraft what after market kits are to automobiles.

You can go buy a Toyota Celica and drive it all day long just fine as is. However, some people like spoilers, ground effect kits, pin stripes and snazzy paint jobs, glass dashboards, new headlights, cool wheels and spinners, a moon roof, etc.

That's exactly what addons are. They're an aftermarket for World of Warcraft however, they could exist without it in the same sense that if Toyota stopped making Celicas, there would still be an after market for spoilers, wheels, etc.... just on a different model car.

The important thing is that Toyota could just as easily say "we don't want to allow anyone to sell after-market kits for our cars because they're ours" -- but why would they want to? In fact, those after market kits in many ways are precisely why so many people choose their car for tuning. It's a win-win.

Now, in the real world, some people have the skills it takes to do their own modding... they can sit in their garage and fab their own parts. Others rely on friends to mod for them in exchange for a good time, camaraderie and maybe a beer, others are content to go buy the parts and have someone else put them on. But none of this in any way hurts Toyota... so who cares.

Same question I'd like to ask Bliz... who cares?

Tekkub · 03-27-09, 05:32 PM

The only problem with that analogy there is the matter of ownership. With the car you own it, it's yours to do with as you want. The only thing the manufacturer can say is "if you modify the car, your warranty is void. We won't fix **** if you break it."

But with WoW, you don't own the software. Even though Blizzy's letting you use it, they're not selling you it outright. Maybe a better analogy would be a car rental. Same car, same aftermarket kits... but you don't have free reign to do anything you want to the car because you don't own it. You're just paying to use it.

spiel2001 · 03-27-09, 05:40 PM

The only reason that the rental market would have a complaint against the kit would be if the use of it damaged the car. Do addons damage WoW?

In the exception you cite, would it still be okay for the person who rents the car to put on a kit that they got for free? Would the rental car company have a sane reason to say: You are free to install any free aftermarket kits you can find, you're just not allowed to buy them before you install them.

Tekkub · 03-27-09, 05:42 PM

Well yea, I'm sure in the bowels of the rental agreement there's bits about you not being allowed to make any sort of modification or even routine maintenance to the car. But you could, for example, hook up your iPod if you don't like the radio.