WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users - Page 17

Vyper · 04-15-09, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Might I suggest you actually read the entire post you are replying to, instead of just skimming them for things to nit pick at, so you don't make the mistake you just made.

My criticism was the WAY they approached them, and the attitude they had in their approach.

Like WoWMatrix is the bad guy and somehow OWES them something.

WoWI has a lot they could learn from WoWMatrix, and should approach them from that perspective, one of mutual cooperation, not "you owe us, so pay up."

I did read your entire post. You make the (flawed) assumption that they demanded monetary compensation. Yet nowhere is that stated. What was stated:

Originally Posted by Seerah

Why don't you work together with WowMatrix?

We have tried to contact them. Curse has tried to contact them. One day, WM and Curse actually did talk about a possible deal. WowMatrix offered them a mere fraction of the costs they cause Curse in order to keep doing what they were doing. When Curse said, "wait, no - you cause us to spend 20 times that on bandwidth," wowmatrix basically gave them the finger and ignored them again. At this point, we find it morally reprehensible to try to work out a deal with someone that has absolutely no respect for us, Curse, the authors, or the community. All wowmatrix wants is their "cut of the market" - they have *never ever* been a part of the community, tried to work things out respectfully with the addon sites, or been a part of discussions with users/authors.

In other words, they offered to Curse (not WoWI), a small fraction of what they were costing Curse. Communications from WoWI were ignored.
This does not mean that Curse was demanding money, it only means that WoWMatrix offered significantly less than the costs Curse was incurring to provide to them, and when their offer was refused, terminated discussions.
So what it comes down too:
WoWI and Curse tried to play ball, but WoWMatrix wouldn't talk. Now Curse/WoWI have taken their ball away, and the WoWMatrixers are throwing a temper tantrum.

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Vyper ... whowhahuh? Your post makes no sense.

Sorry, a typo and poor wording. I shouldn't type this late ;-). It's been edited, and hopefully makes sense now.

downset · 04-15-09, 12:11 AM

People get upset for 3 reasons:

1. You broke the only program that actually did YOUR job

2. You have an awful rhetoric calling WM thieves, pirates, for doing nothing more than linking to a download link, people don't want a closed down internet tied in to your own drm-ed solutions they want an open internet that is easy to use.

3. The incredible arrogance that people who object this move have been met with. all with the same fake ethical arguments, asking people if they have lost their morals.

The use of terms like deep-linking sums it up perfectly, its all about the add-dollars, and protecting their business plan. Those sites are part of large networks, owned by big companies and the generate masses of add-revenue. Do they use this money to write a decent client? No they use it to write awful clients, expose us to more adds and block the only thing that did work, all so they can keep on pushing there horrible business plan that will require us to pay for their below par service when they start calling the crap they have now premium.

WowMatrix probably made them tons of money, a lot of people only visits here because they get linked back to the site through wowMatrix. All people that would have never gotten through the mess you guys have here, but who check out all your pages because someone programmed a program that makes it easy to search your site and use the content you have.

Tuhljin · 04-15-09, 12:15 AM

This "WoWI and Curse did this to get people to use their updaters" conspiracy theory, which WoWInsider is apparently feeding, just doesn't make sense to me. What's the motivation? What great benefit do those sites gain? The updaters are not finished and they know they aren't ready for prime time yet, nor do the updaters seem to - as far as I can tell - provide a source of revenue beyond that which normal page views of the website might provide.

***Cairenn*** · 04-15-09, 12:16 AM

I really wish you guys would slow down and let us actually respond to you guys. I can't even stay current with reading all the posts, let alone trying to post any responses.

downset · 04-15-09, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Tuhljin

This "WoWI and Curse did this to get people to use their updaters" conspiracy theory, which WoWInsider is apparently feeding, just doesn't make sense to me. What's the motivation? What great benefit do those sites gain? The updaters are not finished and they know they aren't ready for prime time yet, nor do the updaters seem to - as far as I can tell - provide a source of revenue beyond that which normal page views of the website might provide.

i got directed multiple times to the updaters, both in press release and when complaining at various venues, the first thing i got met with when i gave curse updater a go was a warning to be ready to pay for premium service soon

Tekkub · 04-15-09, 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

I really wish you guys would slow down and let us actually respond to you guys.

Read and type faster.

Tuhljin · 04-15-09, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by downset

You broke the only program that actually did YOUR job

Do you realize what you sound like here? WoWI is not required to do anything for anyone, let alone for those that are circumventing the revenue methods that keep the site online.

3. The incredible arrogance that people who object this move have been met with. all with the same fake ethical arguments, asking people if they have lost their morals.

You are not entitled to anything from WoWI. What's fake about that?

Originally Posted by downset

i got directed multiple times to the updaters, both in press release and when complaining at various venues, the first thing i got met with when i gave curse updater a go was a warning to be ready to pay for premium service soon

You were given those links as a courtesy for those that may want to use them. They're still not ready for "prime time," and the "official explanation" hasn't been debunked, so I don't think you've addressed my point.

downset · 04-15-09, 12:36 AM

you are right they are not required to do anything for anyone

however they monopolised the add-on scene for their own profit, never gave the users anything that actually worked, and blocked the one thing that did work, yet they can't stop talking about morals and ethics

so they are not required to do anything, i am just explaining why people are pissed off

its infuriating that they brake my working updater and then direct me to one that doesn't work but instead warns me i will have to pay for the crap soon

Vyper · 04-15-09, 12:39 AM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

I really wish you guys would slow down and let us actually respond to you guys. I can't even stay current with reading all the posts, let alone trying to post any responses.

Well since I'm such a nice guy, I'll make this my last post for the evening just for you. You have the whole night to explain to me why I'm an idiot ;-). But I expect I cool smilie while you do it! Otherwise I'll come back and spam retroactively.

Tekkub · 04-15-09, 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by downset

however they monopolised the add-on scene for their own profit, never gave the users anything that actually worked, and blocked the one thing that did work, yet they can't stop talking about morals and ethics

They don't have anything even close to a monopoly. They are the two most popular addon hosts, but they sure as hell don't have a monopoly.

Tuhljin · 04-15-09, 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by downset

however they monopolised the add-on scene

Monopolized? And what exactly did they do to maintain this monopoly? What is preventing other addon sites from cropping up?

for their own profit

Because they should just do this all for free, right? I know Capitalism is a dirty word in some corners, but earning a living is nothing to be ashamed of. The most important aspects of the sites are FREE, for crying out loud.

never gave the users anything that actually worked,

It wasn't their responsibility to create an updater. No one had even thought about the need for an updater for a long time after WoW's release. They readily admit that their current updaters are not as user-friendly as they should be, and they're working on releasing better ones now, but it's not something they can do quickly because - despite what certain 1-post visitors to this site seem to think - they aren't some big corporation with dozens of code monkeys to throw at the problem.

and blocked the one thing that did work, yet they can't stop talking about morals and ethics

We (some users here - the WoWI staff doesn't seem to dwell on this) keep talking about it because it's a valid point and WM defenders like yourself seem incapable of countering it.

its infuriating that they brake my working updater and then direct me to one that doesn't work but instead warns me i will have to pay for the crap soon

The updaters do not cost anything. If there's a premium service in the works, it is optional.

Tekkub · 04-15-09, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by Tuhljin

We (some users here - the WoWI staff doesn't seem to dwell on this) keep talking about it because it's a valid point and WM defenders like yourself seem incapable of countering it.

I don't know why but this sounds attackey to me, so I'll reword it.

WM defenders have yet to present an argument as to how WoWI and Curse's action is not justified, unlawful, or in any way illegal.

tobarstep · 04-15-09, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by downset

its infuriating that they brake my working updater and then direct me to one that doesn't work but instead warns me i will have to pay for the crap soon

I've been using the WOWI generic updater for months now (I'm on a Mac running 10.4, so Curse client is still a no-go for me). It has worked perfectly that entire time. Why do people think that because it's at end-of-life it doesn't work? Does MS Office 2003 no longer work?

GHC · 04-15-09, 01:09 AM

Hmmm...so i gave the Curse Client a try. Result: The Curse Client has found only 5 of my 133 Addons and showed all the time some advertising (deam yes i've recognized there is a premium version). So my next step was to find the wowinterface client. Surprise: I doesnt't work too because it's highly out of date. Fantastic! Looks like your Users doesn't matter anymore. Thanks for Info!

NSDragon · 04-15-09, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

I, for one, was not blocking ads on WoWI, I am now.

Hey, that reminds me... *adds WoWI to ABP's whitelist* Gotta give them their well-deserved ad-click revenue, you know. Because I think it's worth it.

Originally Posted by downset

People get upset for 3 reasons:

1. You broke the only program that actually did YOUR job

Is it WoWI's job to deliver addons to each user's computer? Last I checked they were mainly a repository of addons, not your personal butler.

2. You have an awful rhetoric calling WM thieves, pirates, for doing nothing more than linking to a download link, people don't want a closed down internet tied in to your own drm-ed solutions they want an open internet that is easy to use.

First off, you still can download the addons from the site. There's no DRM or "closed down internet" involved at all here. Second, favourites list is easy enough to use. It even has quick-download buttons off the side. You just want to be lazy about it.

3. The incredible arrogance that people who object this move have been met with. all with the same fake ethical arguments, asking people if they have lost their morals.

Fake ethical arguments? Even the very people who defend WM openly admit that it's dishonest and wrong. But of course, as long as they get their shinies, they don't care.

The use of terms like deep-linking sums it up perfectly, its all about the add-dollars, and protecting their business plan. Those sites are part of large networks, owned by big companies and the generate masses of add-revenue. Do they use this money to write a decent client? No they use it to write awful clients, expose us to more adds and block the only thing that did work, all so they can keep on pushing there horrible business plan that will require us to pay for their below par service when they start calling the crap they have now premium.

I'm gonna tell you this. Even if it was all about the money, WoWI does provide a useful service for a lot of us. That's why they're still around, because people appreciate their work and are willing to compensate them, either with donations, subscriptions or just ad-click money.

Many, many companies in the world are all about the money. But that doesn't mean they can't deliver quality products that people like.

WowMatrix probably made them tons of money, a lot of people only visits here because they get linked back to the site through wowMatrix. All people that would have never gotten through the mess you guys have here, but who check out all your pages because someone programmed a program that makes it easy to search your site and use the content you have.

Before this mad rush of rabid WM users, WowMatrix certainly made WoWI lose a lot of money. So I think they're even in that respect.

Oh, and I say this as a user, not a developer (I don't even have a single addon to my name).

And personally, I was glad that I was actually able to visit the site on a patch day, something that would've been almost unthinkable before. Remember all those times you got the "lite version" WoWI homepage? And that was if you actually managed to even get to the site at all.

Oh, and people still don't seem to get this other simple fact about it:

If WowMatrix hadn't been blocked, WoWI would be down right now, and you wouldn't be able to get your addons at all, not manually, not with WowMatrix, not with the WoWI updater if it was available. No. Addons. At. All.

So be glad.

MidgetMage55 · 04-15-09, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by GHC

Hmmm...so i gave the Curse Client a try. Result: The Curse Client has found only 5 of my 133 Addons and showed all the time some advertising (deam yes i've recognized there is a premium version). So my next step was to find the wowinterface client. Surprise: I doesnt't work too because it's highly out of date. Fantastic! Looks like your Users doesn't matter anymore. Thanks for Info!

As has been stated before by the staff that there was no other way at this point to handle the situation. If they had not gone ahead and blocked WM then they would have been offline due to the immense traffic. So i fail to see how the users dont matter any more. The site is still here and running so people can still update. And just to be thorough:

You guys didn't follow the bouncing ball I alluded to. Let me say it in straight out terms, then.

We didn't want to go here (breaking WowMatrix) yet. We wanted to wait until after our new updater was ready. But:

We.
Didn't.
Have.
A.
Choice.

Why would we not have a choice? Because other sites were going to be implementing theirs today, whether we did or not. If we didn't go ahead with ours today as well, we wouldn't be running at all today. They (WowMatrix) would have jumped from splitting their scraping of both sites to scraping only one site, our site, since they couldn't access the other one. We'd be down today, completely and totally, no one would be able to get to our site at all. How does that help anyone?

We are truly sorry that we had to do this today when we couldn't offer another alternative. We really would have preferred to wait. We're sorry that it had to happen this way. I don't know what else to say beyond that.

Either the site is up and you can update your addons but WM is blocked. OR the site is down and WM works but there is no site to get your updates from.

Mike-N-Go · 04-15-09, 01:24 AM

In the future, it might be even harder to get addons; you might have to decode a picture of some text and retype an addon each time you want to download it!

Edit: Added 'each time'

downset · 04-15-09, 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tekkub

WM defenders have yet to present an argument as to how WoWI and Curse's action is not justified, unlawful, or in any way illegal.

As i said before, WOWi and curse are not obliged to do anything, its certainly not unlawful, i am just explaining why people are upset, and i have a hard time believing the we are more righteous than you (or WM) mantra.

I don't blame them for trying to turn a profit, i blame them for wanting to make a profit and offering no service up to par, instead trying to strong man everyone into using there site/clients.

I understand its a proven business model, first you get the content by letting the add-on makers have everything for free, and when everyone (or an important majority) is on your site you start charging for the content you suddenly own. It might even work in the short run, but it will backfire in the long.

To reverse the argument, was wm doing anything unlawful, they coded a nice lean, friendly, unobtrusive client that got links of the internet. They got blocked out of spite and with a misplaced rhetoric about ethics. As i sated before WM was the only reason a lot of people came here in the first place. And besides all the hyperbole used against them there client is a pretty normal practise on the internet, it collects links, much like google, rss readers, and many other things like that. It gives credit, provided links here and donation links for the authors.

So WOWI is not unlawful or doesn't has to do or provide anything, but i can not imagine anyone here thought this move would make them popular?

downset · 04-15-09, 01:31 AM

Originally Posted by NSDragon

Many, many companies in the world are all about the money. But that doesn't mean they can't deliver quality products that people like.

Glad we agree on this one thing, i wonder why WOWI and Curse can't deliver.

***Dolby*** · 04-15-09, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by downset

Glad we agree on this one thing, i wonder why WOWI and Curse can't deliver.

We were busy paying a ton of money on bandwidth than investing in a good updater? Hope to change that now. Got some good suggestions from this thread too. WM didnt have the overhead we have so they could invest all their time/money into an updater.

It was either block them and stay online or not block them and have our severs flooded with requests because we are the only one not blocking them.

I feel this thread is on repeat or something... *goes to check the db*