WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread

[seebs]

I think it's a bit underconsidered, but I don't think it's actually punitive yet -- it would be if they were suing random people, perhaps.

I'm guessing this is more "poorly planned" than anything. It has the feel of something that they were sort of working on, that suddenly came to a head.

Think about it. If they had all their ducks in a row, would their first avenue of announcement be to completely cease all Blue participation in the UI/Macros forum, and instead to drop a note to Cairenn with no explanation?

Uh, no.

[Astrocanis]

Originally Posted by MadCow Ill pose this question to you spiel2001 only because you seen to be the most vocal mod author of pro donations request in game posting here. Do you share a portion of donations received/generated from in game donation solicitations with the the 6 or so mod authors who have uploaded optional modsfor nUI totaling over 12k downloads. Do any of you other mod authors?

LOL - the old "you're guilty of hypocrisy" crap. He is under no obligation to provide funds for those who add to his mod. But they are under no prohibition from soliciting them. I would guess that if NUI turned into a cottage industry supporting mod development by several authors that he would have absolutely no problem with that. I am putting words into his mouth, but he is essentially a free market libertarian (based on his posts to date). You, I suspect, are not.

To turn this around, by your question you imply that he should be getting funded by blizzard for supplying the mod? That bliz should share a portion of the proceeds of its game with mod authors?

[MadCow]

Originally Posted by Astrocanis LOL - the old "you're guilty of hypocrisy" crap. He is under no obligation to provide funds for those who add to his mod. But they are under no prohibition from soliciting them. I would guess that if NUI turned into a cottage industry supporting mod development by several authors that he would have absolutely no problem with that. I am putting words into his mouth, but he is essentially a free market libertarian (based on his posts to date). You, I suspect, are not. To turn this around, by your question you imply that he should be getting funded by blizzard for supplying the mod? That bliz should share a portion of the proceeds of its game with mod authors?

well these optional addons add to the success of the nUI. how many of those that donate would do so without these additional mods that are NOT supplied by the nUI author
and to the second point
No because the game is completely playable without these mods. However these mods have no practical meaning or worth without the game.

[Astrocanis]

Apples and oranges. Your post was specifically an attempt to draw the author of NUI into a guilt-eating contest about the fact that he has solicited donations for his mod, has a Pro version of it that is available to those he chooses (or who paid for it) and attempting to equate that to pure greed and a crass disregard for those that add to his addon.

It doesn't work. Simply for the reason that he is NOT responsible for additional work against his addon. At no time has he stated anything along the lines of anything resembling resistance to those authors ALSO being compensated.

You are attempting to do the "public weal" appeal thing and it doesn't apply. Be careful. Your slip is showing.

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by MadCow Ill pose this question to you spiel2001 only because you seen to be the most vocal mod author of pro donations request in game posting here.

To be honest... none of them have asked and, frankly, I hadn't thought about it one way or the other than to say (a) I absolutely encourage people to create plugins for nUI and (b) I would have no problem what-so-ever with them asking for donations for their work and I would help them in any way I could because I recognize that their work benefits mine. I see it as symbiotic.

As for whether or not I would give them part of my donations... sure... as soon as we can come up with a meaningful way of accounting for how much of my income I owe them. But that is a fallacious argument you're making because I'm not asking Blizzard to give me any of their money, so you can't exactly correlate me giving my plugin authors money.

I do strongly encourage them to do as they please in extending nUI, I even help them with their code and walk with them through my API. Last night I actually finished coding one for one of them because they were stuck... then I gave it back to them to do with as they please.

EDIT: here's the thread in question... http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=21057 -- it's a trivial mod, yes... but show me where Bliz has ever done that for a modder?

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Astrocanis he is essentially a free market libertarian

Score yourself three bonus points in the lightning round

EDIT: PS... I would vote libertarian if they weren't such pu***es on national defense ~smile~

[seebs]

Someone over on the official forums raised a consideration I hadn't thought of:

A hypothetical guild requiring members to use a specific for-pay addon.

I can see Blizzard not wanting that to be possible.

[Tekkub]

The day a guild REQUIRES an addon is the day I write an addon that makes it look like you have it. Anyone remember MDFMK?

[Satrina]

Yeah, the next post there is OMG WHAT IF YOUR GUILD WANTS TO ENFORCE MINIMUM SYSTEM SPECS? Well, many raiding guilds have required that since long before WoW existed.

Most raiding guilds require Omen, oRA, DBM/BigWigs. In addition to those, in our guild if you're a healer you must run the healing assignment addon I wrote for us. And if you ever want loot, you run the loot addon I wrote.

I can see where non-raiders might get freaked out over that, but it's really just par for the course in a dedicated raid guild. Joining a particular guild is even less of a requirement to play than using any addons. If you don't like the policies, don't join the guild. Mandatory addons are spelled out up front in the public "about this guild" stuff on our site, so it's only a surprise to people who ignore the "hey, read the guild charter and raid guidelines before applying" part.

[Slakah]

Originally Posted by Tekkub The day a guild REQUIRES an addon is the day I write an addon that makes it look like you have it. Anyone remember MDFMK?

tbh I would just make a generic "guildrequiresyoutohaveaddonsolver", it's only one line aswell

GuildLeave()

[Tekkub]

oRA was written because of people requiring **** also. Omen isn't needed anymore, bossmods have become more of a "if you want timer bars" sorta recommendation, and a lot fewer guilds use DKP anymore, going with either a "loot council" or just plan need/greed.

Regardless of what your raid leader says, no addon is REQUIRED for anything, and I will always fight those that try to dictate what I use (I do not use vent either :P)

[Satrina]

Originally Posted by Tekkub oRA was written because of people requiring **** also. Omen isn't needed anymore, bossmods have become more of a "if you want timer bars" sorta recommendation, and a lot fewer guilds use DKP anymore, going with either a "loot council" or just plan need/greed. Regardless of what your raid leader says, no addon is REQUIRED for anything, and I will always fight those that try to dictate what I use (I do not use vent either :P)

Easy there, Don Quixote. Funnily enough, I am one of the raid leaders

But seriously, this attitude puzzles me. Our guild and raid policies affect you in exactly zero ways. What you do or do not use affects my guild in zero ways. If you were looking at our policies and saw the mandatory addons in the guild documentation, you probably wouldn't apply in the first place.

On the other hand, we have enough people who accept them to fill raids and kill stuff. We use DKP. Every DPS we've recruited that I can think of already was using Omen since they want the precise value of their threat versus the tank instead of the happy light. And so on.

I'm not trying to tell you what to use, until you apply to my guild. Once the expectations are made clear, you're under no obligation to join us - and we're under no obligation to tag you. No problems anywhere.

[seebs]

It doesn't bug me much, but I could see Blizzard not liking it. A little too close to "extra money required to play game".

[Spectro]

I think what it comes down to is that you would be making money off their game. They don't want that. Also, I'd be willing to donate to authors of some of my most used addons such as QuestHelper, but I would

Originally Posted by Duugu What is "non-intrusive"? And what are "non-intrusive" buttons good for? [edit] imho you're mixing up the terms "intrusive" and "annoying".

I meant obtrusive and I was agreeing with earlier posts.

Originally Posted by Satrina At the risk of incurring Cair's wrath - why?

I'm new here. I don't know what you're talking about. I'm not saying that payed-for addons aren't good, I'm just saying I'm against paying for any kind of WoW service ranging from guides (other than BradyGames or official Blizzard guides), powerleveling, "secrets", gold, or anything like that including addons. Especially since all guide websites all look the same and it seems so damn shady. Carbonite has always looked interesting to me, but I never downloaded the free version because I didn't want to not be able to access a bunch of features until buying a premium version.

I think my biggest question now is, what the hell is going to replace QuestHelper when it breaks?

[lordlundar]

You know, I've been reading this thread for a while and the multitude of threads at the WoW official forms, And I see the arguments against the new rules as a type of the following 3:

1. It's my code, It's my right to charge for this.

I agree. It is your right to charge for it. It is also Blizzard's right to block it. Nintendo has been doing this for years, so has Sony and Microsoft with their game consoles and Apple with their Ipod. (probably the best example of policy restrictions going) Just as Blizzard cannot dictate that you cannot charge for your code, you cannot dictate to Blizzard that they have to allow it. They can refuse it access at any time and if they decide the refusal is because you charge for it, so be it.

2. It's my livelihood

I'm gonna sound like a little jerk for this, but bear with me, as I often see this with "I'm a professional programmer" That only has the AddOns in their portfolio. If you are a professional programmer, then why is your livelihood based around a game someone else made that you are simply attaching yourself on? If you are such a good coder as you say, You should be able to make your own programs and charge for them that have no dependencies. I know what the response will be for this: "Blizzard is going to sue us if we do." I'm not talking about a program for WoW, I'm talking about your own programs. Not AddOns or Mods. You want to prove you're a professional, then prove you don't need to hang onto someone else.

And for those of you saying you're not living off their IP, I call bull. If you weren't then if they didn't exist, you could still make money off of what you made. As it is, you can't. Think about that.

3. I want at least donations but Blizzard won't let me!

This one I see way too often and is a lie perpetuated by not reading the source properly. Blizzard allows donation requests, just not in game. If all you're doing is linking to your site that has a donation button, then just change the wording! If you are providing a link to a direct donation setup, change it to link to the distribution site(s) and put a link to your donation service there. Problem solved. And as for WoWMatrix and updaters that bypass your distribution site, that fight is with them and blaming blizzard for their actions is cowardly.


Suffice to say, I see a lot of this argument and outcry being based on 2 assumptions:

1. Blizzard is greedy and sue-happy. Do you seriously have any idea how much time and money go into a court case? Yes there is a reference to legal action, but before that it says "response up to and including". It's a lot easier to just block the AddOn. They have been in 2 cases so far with regards to the game. Glider they won because it modified their IP in an unapproved way. AddOns rarely do and get shut down quickly. Glider simply decided to push their luck. The other one was some loser who did a major violation and got his account banned, then tried to sue blizzard. All Blizzard did was prove he broke the rules and paid the price and blizzard won.

2. Blizzards intent. This mixes with part one in the assumption that they are sue-happy. I will say this in nice bold text so people will read it.

WE DON'T KNOW BLIZZARD'S INTENT IN THIS MATTER!

Too many people are assuming the worst case scenario and fear-mongering it. I see it as standard policies most businesses that have access to the public have. Operate in their space by their rules or get kicked out/off. Try to fight back in court and lose because you chose to ignore their clear rules. That's all I see it as, a shield in case someone tries to force their own personal beliefs into blizzard policy.

But then again, I see people as not reading this in it's entirety and only picking weak spots to argue and saying that I'm not an author so how can I have any idea, I'm a Blizzard fanboy because I don't agree with them, etcetera. (wow, can't believe that the FF error checker catches the full spelling of etc) but my point is that don't assume blizzard's intent until it becomes known. They've been in this business for several years and have a perspective we don't.

[Gemini_II]

Originally Posted by Satrina In a free-market, capitalist society, what reasoning do you place on that belief... Edit: This is genuine curiosity since this is a very common thing that people are saying. I don't have donation buttons or anything, so it's completely moot to me.

This is just my opinion, but I still don't agree with paid addons. I completely support donations though. On the other hand, I will support someone's RIGHT to charge for a service they provide, whether I agree or not.

For example I would never consider something like Carbonite for two main reasons: 1) I don't agree with obfuscating code and 2) there are enough free alternatives. They do have the right to run a commercial product though. Up until Blizz's new policy.

I see both sides of the fence here. Ultimately it's Blizzard's cake, and they don't have to share if they don't want to. Fact of capitalistic society. Author's deserve WAY more respect and appreciation than they are given though. If I had better finances I would gladly send a few dollars to some deserving authors, even though it's a pain the ass w/o a credit card. Vast majority of the userbase is ignorant and conceited though. I'm a techie, I know this to be fact. "RTFM", "PEBKAC" or "ID-10T file too big" errors are far too common.

Originally Posted by Spectro I think my biggest question now is, what the hell is going to replace QuestHelper when it breaks?

Use your brain and eyes? Nothing personal here, it's a blanket statement. It galls me how many people really don't know hot to play their class at end-game. You can be tought instance encounters but if you ebay'd your toon, or used QH from 1-80, GTFO my server. I love QH, and Zorba would be an author I would prob send a few bucks to because I like using QH for levelling alts, after I've done it myself a few times.

I think I had my daily rant (sorry long day and it's only half over).

[Mazzlefizz]

Originally Posted by Cairenn 6) Add-ons must not contain offensive or objectionable material. World of Warcraft has been given a “T” by the ESRB, and similar ratings from other ratings boards around the world. Blizzard Entertainment requires that add-ons not include any material that would not be allowed under these ratings.

I just had an intense...umm...I guess brain fart. I forgot what I was going to say.

Bad Tekkub! Yeah, that's it.

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by Satrina Yeah, the next post there is OMG WHAT IF YOUR GUILD WANTS TO ENFORCE MINIMUM SYSTEM SPECS? Well, many raiding guilds have required that since long before WoW existed. Most raiding guilds require Omen, oRA, DBM/BigWigs. In addition to those, in our guild if you're a healer you must run the healing assignment addon I wrote for us. And if you ever want loot, you run the loot addon I wrote. I can see where non-raiders might get freaked out over that, but it's really just par for the course in a dedicated raid guild. Joining a particular guild is even less of a requirement to play than using any addons. If you don't like the policies, don't join the guild. Mandatory addons are spelled out up front in the public "about this guild" stuff on our site, so it's only a surprise to people who ignore the "hey, read the guild charter and raid guidelines before applying" part.

I am with you on the mandatory AddOns. My guild spells out the AddOns we require in our recruitment forums. I know as I am the one who wrote and maintains all of our recruitment stickies. Regarding minimum system requirements, yes for certain types of runs, we do enforce some minimum system requirements. Things like "Immortal" runs. If your system can't handle the action onscreen and you die on us, you just wasted our time. Fortunately, my guild is made of level headed adults and don't have an issue sitting out a raid due to PC issues.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by lordlundar 2. It's my livelihood I'm gonna sound like a little jerk for this, but bear with me, as I often see this with "I'm a professional programmer" That only has the AddOns in their portfolio. If you are a professional programmer, then why is your livelihood based around a game someone else made that you are simply attaching yourself on? If you are such a good coder as you say, You should be able to make your own programs and charge for them that have no dependencies. I know what the response will be for this: "Blizzard is going to sue us if we do." I'm not talking about a program for WoW, I'm talking about your own programs. Not AddOns or Mods. You want to prove you're a professional, then prove you don't need to hang onto someone else.

Well, WoW isn't my livelihood, but it did play a roll in it. When I got my first "real" programming job all I had to show in my portfolio was an assload of wow addons. And that DID help. It showed that I did know how to program, that I was willing to work on open source projects, and most of all that I was dedicated enough to do this FOR FREE. Just because it's for a game doesn't make the coding experience any less valid, and frankly I don't think I'd want to work for someone that thought that.

Now then, the second job I landed (yes I work two jobs) was a support job for a repo host (I'm sure *everyone* knows who :P). This one was an interesting situation. I'd been using their free hosting for my addons for some time, so right there I had my proof that I understood their product. When they put up their ad I applied, and in the end got turned down. About a month and a half later, they contacted me because they realized I was a better candidate. Yea, big ego boost there. Some months later I found out that one of the founders (the one I'd talked to when I applied) had worked for gamespot, so I actually ended up working for someone who realized that games were a "real" business, even if they're just stupid entertainment.

So yea, if you think less of people that can make a living off a game, stick it :P

[spiel2001]

Originally Posted by Tekkub So yea, if you think less of people that can make a living off a game, stick it :P

Yeah... I'll follow up on that one... I have 30 years experience as a professional programmer. I spent 14 months on unemployment, not of my choosing, and picked up modding for WoW in the hopes of making something of it if I couldn't find work.

Now I'm working here: http://www.deicorp.net

In large part because I had experience in gaming that I gained because of modding WoW and could prove it.

All the same, I really don't understand why people take the attitude that for some reason games are a special class. All a game is is a collection of software algorithms executing on a hardware platform manipulating data to produce a final result... in this case, the illusion of a world environment. Adobe photoshop is a collection of software algorithms executing on a hardware platforms manipulating data to produce an end result... graphic images.

/shrug