WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Vyper]

See, now I know Cairenn is upset... I went out and found an emoticon just for her, and she didn't even notice!
Maybe this one will help? Or maybe this one....

[Cairenn]

Sorry. Thank you, it is a very cute smilie and I will probably add it to my collection.

*hugs Vyper*

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Had they only asked authors for their permission in the first place; Had they only been paying for the bandwidth and other infrastructure; Had they only been .... I'm sorry, I know, I'm starting to lose my cool here. Sorry guys. I think maybe it's time for me to go for a walk.

Looks like it's time to lift a cold one or two or the entire case. Frankly, I am impressed by how you have kept your cool in the midst of the flaming this site keeps getting by those who don't get it. I know, if I was in your shoes, I would be needing to visit Home Depot for some Sheetrock, drywall compound, paint and other assorted "fix-it items" plus my doctor for a nice cast or two.

[us2006027321]

Originally Posted by honem <snip>Just because you can read the code doesn't mean that code is open source. Have a read of http://www.opensource.org/docs/definition.php its very enlighting. You say "if I was an author". That's the thing. If you were an author you should have the right to say how you want it distributed. If it's an open source license that's fine. If it's a GPL license that's fine . After all it would be your creation therefore you get to say what license you put it on it. <splice>It's just that a lot of posters here still have the bad memory of the discussions about the UI policy and they like "Oh great here we go again". I don't think it's anything personal they just a little tired of answering the same questions to the same sort of users again again. Anyways I look forward to your response when I wake up

Originally Posted by Vyper The key here you are missing is an addon is not neccesarily open source. While it is required to be provided in a clear and redable format, it is not required to use an OSS liscense such as the GPL or BSD liscense. There are reasons why some authors don't like distrubuting under OSS liscenses, but I won't go into them here, as they have no bearing on the fact that it is the authors choice.

It's my pleasure to respond, Honem. Good morning, I hope you rested well, and I hope my response is worth the wait. >< LoL

That read (among others, scroll down) was extremely enlightening. Ultimately, you've drawn a bottom line with which I've always agreed. It is the author's choice where to publish his work. Before this, my raised eyebrow was at the fact that it seemed like authors were just being picky or emotionally devoted to their site choices. Now (and you can thank Cairenn for this), I have an entirely different perspective.

One of the things many mod users don't understand is that add-ons don't come from the add-on fairy to drop add-ons under our pillows while we sleep in exchange for our frustrations with Blizz's default UI. Even in Curse's software, it's very easy to TL: DR all the information that's there, because we're too busy spamming the I.W.I.N. update button and jumping straight into the game. Maybe it would be easier if there wasn't an updater at all? Perhaps then, mod users would be able to link their happy add-ons to a face and drop a thank you from time to time to the magnificent scriptwriters of things like Recount, Omen, XPerl, CT, ArcHUD, and FuBar (easy examples since I use them).

I'm sorry you, the authors, keep answering the same questions over and over. So many of us who are fresh to the issue want one of two things: validation or a better understanding. Most who are asking come here seeking the former while I've come in pursuit of the latter. I suppose that's why I'm not getting beat in the face with the hate bat in this debate like many former WM users have. (Thanks to this community for that, btw. ~_^)

Originally Posted by Cairenn {Link Wall} You'll notice that there are posts going back to Oct '07. You'll notice that there were actual WowMatrix people involved in the discussions. If you keep going through the searches on either site using "WowMatrix" as the key-word, you'll see that we've been warning users for ages that they were going to get cut off sooner or later.

Originally Posted by Vyper You have statements from WoWMatrix? I for one would love to hear them. WoWMatrix is notorious for not communicating with anyone.

I'm choosing to respond to both of these in the same paragraph. That was another very enlightening read. I don't know that it was WM's intention to misrepresent themselves to me in the e-mails I have been exchanging with them, but I have a few more questions I get to go ask them before I produce my blog. Btw, yes, I have been communicating with them. They seem fairly happy to communicate with someone who wants to hear what they have to say and is willing to offer the community their perspective. I'm not going to give away the whole game before I make my post, but I'm sure it will make a very interesting read for all parties.

Originally Posted by Cairenn They never tried to become legit until after we slammed the door on them. And where are they getting the money to become legit with? Oh right, all the ads they served up both on their site and on their updater, while using our resources to serve the files. And even now, they are only doing the bare minimum that they are being forced to do, as has been shown over and over by individual authors, etc.

I'm hearing and reading that the biggest grouse anyone has with WM is that they didn't ask first. I think it fair to ask: had they asked first, would WoWI have been willing to share? I'm sure there would have been terms and conditions on that, but I'm asking strictly about the presence of willingness. I'm also not asking rhetorically; I'd like to know. Would it have been there?

Originally Posted by Cairenn /edit I'm not mad at anyone here except WowMatrix, and those that now know the truth but still don't give a flying **** because it's "convenient for me".

You have every right to be angry. If I'm to take everything you're saying here at face value (I've really no reason not to), this whole mess could have been avoided, and it sounds like you've been thrust into a difficult position by bad communication, worse assumptions, and an unwillingness to negotiate.

If after WoWI has produced an equally user friendly add-on manager, there are still WM users flying the convenience and apathy banner, I'll see you your anger and raise you my rage. I'm looking forward to your handy little bit of software to really clear things up for everyone in terms of options. It seems like the biggest problem the WM community (fractured though it may be) has is the feeling like they're being given no options. If WoWI can give them options, they can stop being frustrated that their I.W.I.N. button got broken.

Kudos to you, Cairenn and the rest of this community, for being objective enough to field our questions and rants and still offering us an alternative.

Originally Posted by Lykofos Looks like it's time to lift a cold one or two or the entire case.

I agree.

*buys the entire forum a round of cherry limeaids*

[silvermeteor]

I am sorry to say that I am not a happy camper when it comes to the current situation between a number of addon developers, WOW Interface, Curse and WOWMatrix.

The funny part is that I understand the problem. As I see it, WOWMatrix has been generating advertising revenue by using the bandwidth of a number of addon developers. By doing this WOWMatrix makes a profit and the developers pay the overhead.

This situation also short circuits the efforts of the various developers to financially subsidise their efforts by soliciting donations.

Having said that I still must say that I find the options being offered here as a poor substitute and question the move to cut off WOWMatrix before either WOW Interface or Curse had a viable and comprable upgrade option available.

It seems to me that you may have made your point at the expense of the player. I have just spent a frustrating 30 minutes trying to locate and D/L a number of upgrades that are no longer available at WOWMatrix. I have completed four because I have to hunt and search for each and every one, many of which are burried in groups of files by developer, subject, etc. All 30 of my addons would have been updated in a matter of moments previously.

I would rather be playing the game than visiting this site or any other and spending and hour or so checking for upgrades. It will not take much more of this before I commence dumping addons. When I do that everyone loses.

The sad thing is that I understand and support your cause. I helped run a Virtual Railroad that utilized Microsoft Train Simulator. We updated the physics of all the equipment for more realistic operations and were always worried about people joining our group, utilizing our bandwidth to D/L our equipment and then not doing anything else to meet their commitments.

Now if you are generating this type of feeling from a supporter what do you think will be happening among the less informed?

[Cairenn]

We understand your frustration. http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=22789 Point #16

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by us2006027321 I think it fair to ask: had they asked first, would WoWI have been willing to share? I'm sure there would have been terms and conditions on that, but I'm asking strictly about the presence of willingness. I'm also not asking rhetorically; I'd like to know. Would it have been there?

Had they come to authors and asked them if they could MIRROR their addons (not leech bandwidth) I'm certain a good number would have let them. Many more if WM did the process of syncing their mirror automatically.

As for WoWI, they would have listened and tried to work out a deal that works for both parties. It's been said a number of times that Curse was in contact with WM, and the offers WM made were horribly unreasonable... far to little to cover bandwidth costs, and far too much to buy the program outright. Had something been worked out, it might have been advertising kickback from WM to cover the bandwidth, or it could have been an automated way of delivering new addons to WM for mirroring. Either way, I'm certain that it would have been an opt-in option given to author when submitting addons, allowing them to choose to publish on WM or not.

[thevoices]

Heh i guess the unsqueaky wheel doesnt get a greeting, I used some good sarcasm in my virgin post here :/.

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by thevoices Heh i guess the unsqueaky wheel doesnt get a greeting, I used some good sarcasm in my virgin post here :/.

Welcome aboard. It was really nice to see ihartsnape's and your posts. I think it's refreshing to see a few people get it, and make a real effort to help out. It's not that people are ignoring the 'unsqueaky' wheel, it's just easier to try greasing the squeaky ones, in the atmosphere that's enveloped this particular thread.

Again, glad to see ya.

[Tekkub]

We got a cart with a "squeaky wheel" at the store tonight. I kicked it. That didn't work, so I kicked it harder.

[chaissos]

Right....first post. Yes, I joined yesterday. No, it's NOT the first time I've been to this site, nor is it the first time I trolled through the posts.

Yes, I've actually read every prior post in this thread (almost, truthfully: I read enough of the quoted stuff to make sure I knew where it was from).

**Edit** I gave up after page 28, and went to the end. 4 hours reading is enough.
**Edit** Wow....post 851...amazing. Still, I had to post.

Yes, I used WM (until last night). Yes, I've since loaded the CC, am woefully unimpressed. Yes, I agree, the WM authors should be taken "out back" and dealt with. In fact, I do believe there are actually laws providing for that. You could look into it if you've got the time or inclination (a lot of both, Id imagine).

I tried the WI updater. Fail.

I tried the Curse client. Fail.

I tried manually updating all my adds. Time is definitely a factor. with over 90 adds (apparently typical from what I've read in just this thread), prohibitive. If you think everyone has the computer savvy to manually keep all their stuff updated, get a grip. Installing the game is as simple as going out, buying a CD, and putting it in the correct drive - and since it won't even fit in a 3.5" drive, you're forced to the only other one you have. It's almost idiot proof. How many complaints did Blizzard have when WotLK came out on DVD? Bilzzard actually forces the updates down your throat, and deosn't even ask (or allow!) you to make decisions except to click a little button when it's done. Please, before you preach about how easy it is, think of the user base, and their abilities.

I originally found WM about 9 months ago. Yes, there are ad links on it, and no I don't hit them. I don't hit ad links on any other site, nor in my e-Mail, either. I run Firefox, with both AdBlocker and noscript installed. googleadservices.com is marked as untrusted, along with google-analytics, and doubleclick...you get the point. Are you going to block my client? Maybe. Don't pull Java scripts and images from a site other than your own, and things will work just fine. You I allow, but not everyone you say you trust - some of them have proven they're unreliable. You don't make my dinner at night.

WM provided me something the other clients (at the time and now) didn't (and still don't): The ability to search available adds and see interesting results in a predicatable manner. WI doesn't have one, so that's out...CC sorta does, but doesn't support a lot of the adds I've come to rely on. Right or wrong, when you make something that folks rely on, it becomes a standard. Do I know who wrote DBM? Sure. Is it pretty much a standard add for anyone who's trying to raid? Of course. If you had to ask what DBM was, then skip the rest, this entire website isn't for you.

So here's another question: I write an updater, that queries MY database for current add versions, and then gets the adds from your site. From what I can tell, that's just what WM does. I don't store the adds, there's only one spot for the adds to live, the difference is I can go to all the stores and use one program to do it. Provide an API (WI, Curse, and ... no, that's it, as far as I can tell, there are no other real sources for adds) so the program can pull an advertisement from your site (just don't forget to not cross-script it, because I'll most likely block that).

The analogies I've seen are friutless. No stores, no men in trucks, that's ridiculous, and doesn't get the point across, anyway.

I didn't know WM had been contacted and refused to play. Those comments aren't readily displayed when you hit the site (for an obvious example, trying going to http://www.nissan.com). I'm glad the admins here have taken the time to at least explain some of their decisions. I had to dig for this, though, and really, it should be front and center.

Here are some suggestions for the "new" updater, when you release it:

1) Nice, easy search feature. I, for one of many, have tried many an add merely because it looked interesting. I may not keep it, may love it, may donate to the writer, may not. Those are all decisions I make when I try software of any ilk.

2) Should I decide to try a new add, install it cleanly for me. Don't make me guess as to where the WoW program is (e.g. a manual install). Should I choose not to keep it, remove it cleanly for me. Don't leave footprints behind for me to try and figure out months/years down the road (what was this folder for again??).

3) Check all the sites I gets addons from. OK, both sites. Make me provide a log on for each site, I don't care. If that's your requirement, fine.

4) Check all the addons I have in my folder. If you don't recognize it, realize it may be from another site, and figure out a way to check that one. Don't just tell me it's invalid. If you can't figure out how to test the other site, how about at leat a link to the other main sites? Give me something...anything...other than invalid.

I've seen several suggestions in this thread I sympathize with, some I don't. How about forcing logon's, and keeping track of hits so the authors can tell how many folks are using their addon? Surely it would be a kick to see something you wrote "For the heck of it" being used by millions. That's a resume line, surely.

You have the right to force us to use your updater, and design it the way you choose, and make it not interact with anything but your site. That is your right. You can force us to use multiple updaters because they won't work together. When someone comes along and uses your API, and pulls the Curse API, allowing a single application to hit both sites, that will be OK, right? Sounds a lot like WM to me.

Tristanian, Cairenn, I appreciate (yes, and support) all your effort (and the others who do the work you do, and some other posters). I do realize the work that has gone into what you do, and I sincerely hope all goes well. I'm looking forward to a single button I can "hammer" (to use your word) and update all my crap at once. I'm not sorry WM is gone. I used it out of necessity, not desire. I would MUCH rather use yours. Unfortunately, I'm a network guy, not a coder, otherwise I'd offer some of my time. The minute I see a decent, working updater, I'll spam my guild with it, and continue from there. It's about all I can do, really.

I've read (most of) the posts, and there are things people seem to miss. I have just over 90 adds. Do I run them all? Yes, but not on every toon. That seems to be missed. My Dk need this, my pally needs that, me priest needs the other, and don't start me on my mage. So realisticly, 90 isn't extreme. Do you need convincing? Maybe, maybe not. You don't have to be convinced, this is the way I play the "game". You say once a year? Dude, reality check: Do you only log onto your toons once a year? 'nuff said. Sure, I check the "Out of Date" box, but there's no "Out of Features" box to help me.

I merely miss an easy way to keep my all stuff up to date. With all of my servers requiring touching, all of the clients needing care, constantly checking router logs, apache logs, IIS logs, intrusion logs, checking for outdated system patches, and all this is simply at HOME! I get enough e-Mail. I get enough whispers for help. At the end of the day, all I want to do is sit and play for a few minutes, or an hour or two, and get lost in a fantasy world. I have to fight my wife enough for my cave time. Do I really have to fight everyone else, too?

Now, before anyone flames me for being "new to" this or that, or anything similarly silly, let me point out a few minor facts: I'm 46 as of today - I'll be 47 later this year. I've been working with computer systems and networks for over 30 years. I've got more than one degree under my belt, and a few certifications to boot. I served my country honorably for over 20 years, and am darned proud to say it.

One quick note: (no names, OK?), 80 is http, 443 is https (not 81). Redirects and forwarding can support any number of internal ports and system, regardless of what external port is hit. I can list every WKS currently in use, can you? It's been said before, but deserves repeating - go Shirik. Oh, and English is a language. Learn it, use it, love it, spell the words correctly, and learn to use them properly.

*Props: http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=253
(and a couple of the following posts)
So flame away. I won't read it.

Chase

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by chaissos I've read (most of) the posts, and there are things people seem to miss. I have just over 90 adds. Do I run them all? Yes, but not on every toon. That seems to be missed. My Dk need this, my pally needs that, me priest needs the other, and don't start me on my mage. So realisticly, 90 isn't extreme.

90 isn't huge. My addons folder has 195 items in it. Once I take out the multipart addons and addons that operate as a single "unit" I'm left with a count of roughly 90.

My point wasn't that you should not use a huge amount of addons. Use as many as you like.

My point was not every one of those 90 addons of yours updates every single day. So you won't be spending a hour or two a day updating them. I personally only do it once per week because I happen to enjoy the process of doing so.

Once you remove the need to update "every day" then IMHO you start looking at what you are downloading and why. For me personally I'm not interested in even touching an update for an addon if it's a minor update. An updated for the text of a button in French. Some new Russian text on the addon. Tagging as version X.XX . Compatiability update for a feature I don't use. All examples of minor updates I ignore these.

And my UI is stable. I've said it before , I'll say it again. If your UI is stable and doing exactly what you want it to do then you can get away with not updating any of your addons for a while.

On a computer if you don't update your software like your video drivers or your system software you can often run into problems - bugs that might of been fixed in a later version. With an addon that worse that can happen is either your screen gets sprayed with red errors or you get d/ced. Both problems can be solved by disabling the addon for now and later on going to seek a needed update. I have personally never seen an addon cause lasting harm by bugging out.

IMHO Once you know what you're downloading and how often it updates then you can afford to not update certain addons. You can afford to take a leisurely pace with your updating because after all your UI is stable so there isn't any untowards effects of not updating your addons.

[Bluspacecow]

Just thought of this while I was in the shower

I find it highly amusing in a way when I think of these people who think nothing of spending an hour or two each week researching boss strats, looking up where a rare elite mob spans, boss loot , season 6 items , where to get the best gear to "pimp out" their toons and even what the best shot rotation to use on a particular boss is.............

................................yet won't spend a smidgen of that time outside of game updating their addons.

Yes they don't want anything to get in the way of *game time* but at the end of the day that shouldn't prevent you from logging in and playing.

I've often had to say to a group "BRB guys need to relog. New version of an addon" Often you can load the new version of an addon in by using "/console reloadui"

Downtime happens all the time in WOW. Whether it's waiting on getting a tank for your 5 man or if it's on a flight path to Dalaran. For me that would be an excellent time to go update your addons. I myself use the downtime while in flight to get to some 5 man updating Omen & Recount as this is the time that it rely matters that these are updated.

[Tekkub]

The best ideas are had in the bathroom. I think it's just the law of conservation, you displace one thing, so something else has to fill that void... BAM ideas.

Anywho....

Yea, you're totally right. The thing of it is, people make it out like they've got 90 SIGNIFICANT updates they need, when this is utter crap. On a patch day you'll have a handful of addons break. I had maybe 6 total this patch. Of those, probably only 2/3 are fixed. Now, if you click that little "favorite" button after you find an addon, you can go to this wonderful little page that shows you all your favs, in order of most recently updated. And, as a bonus, you can download them directly from that page without even visiting it! Yes, there's more than a single click involved here, but the point is that over time your time invested in finding updates goes down drastically. You come here, find the broken addons' updates, check your favs list for other updates, and you're done.

Problem is that's more effort than one-click updating, so people aren't highly inclined to use it. Maybe if there were an automated program that scans your addon folder, checks WoWI and sets up favorites for you? That'd be kinda nice actually...

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by Tekkub The best ideas are had in the bathroom. I think it's just the law of conservation, you displace one thing, so something else has to fill that void... BAM ideas.

Off Topic: I think I am going to steal that quote

[us2006027321]

Originally Posted by chaissos TL: DR <snip> 1) Nice, easy search feature. I, for one of many, have tried many an add merely because it looked interesting. I may not keep it, may love it, may donate to the writer, may not. Those are all decisions I make when I try software of any ilk. 2) Should I decide to try a new add, install it cleanly for me. Don't make me guess as to where the WoW program is (e.g. a manual install). Should I choose not to keep it, remove it cleanly for me. Don't leave footprints behind for me to try and figure out months/years down the road (what was this folder for again??). 3) Check all the sites I gets addons from. OK, both sites. Make me provide a log on for each site, I don't care. If that's your requirement, fine. 4) Check all the addons I have in my folder. If you don't recognize it, realize it may be from another site, and figure out a way to check that one. Don't just tell me it's invalid. If you can't figure out how to test the other site, how about at leat a link to the other main sites? Give me something... anything... other than invalid. </snip>

You TL: DR'd all the most important stuff. We covered a lot of that in a little Q&A I had with Shirik, and you can read it here.

[voodoodad]

What are you people not getting??? They're DUTCH!!!

Sorry, sorry..

[Tristanian]

Originally Posted by chaissos So flame away. I won't read it. Chase

No flames, because you post in a reasonable manner and make some pretty good points, that have of course already been made by several other posters. No analogies are really needed, in all honesty I hate analogies when things are so crystal clear, in terms of what we don't like about WM and why. I still believe that everything that needed to be said about this subject, has already been said (by both sides).

[ShadowForces]

Like it or not WoWMatrix is THE BEST addon updater atm!

Updaters are a very good place for ppl to get to know that this or that addon exist (anyone remembers UIC "Addon of the day"?)

-*First* there was Cosmos updater and "everyone" used cosmos addons..
-Then there was a time were UICentral was the best (and was never matched imo) addon updater out there, so guess what?! most ppl used wowui site and database and the site was prosperous..
-Then WoWAce came along with a cross platform updater and I, as many others I bet, started using Ace addons simply cos of that.
-WoWAce died but started pointing out to curse as the 'official ace repository', Ace died but curse was prosperous..
-Curse updater was TERRIBLE compared to WoWAce so wen ppl saw that nice simple WoWMatrix updater they changed in a heart beat!
-Curse Updater is now not as bad as b4 but now it feels a step back wen you already used WM.

Now you forced the hand, and WoW Matrix has started to host their own copy of the addons, and in a few weeks whenever you click on the WM link to the addon page (that used to point the user to curse, this site, wowui or the authors own page) you will allways go to the WM web page, and curse will have the same destiny has wowui.

And were does WOWI fits in this?! well on patch days this is simply the most reliable site.

I cant speak for all the other users of WM but I have the habit o coming to the site (using the WM direct link) to look at the addon's change log before updating it using WM, if WM starts hosting (since it seems to be the problem here) I will go there instead to see the change log, thus providing less page views to your site and curse.

I honestly understand your point, I can even agree with it, BUT still I thinks its a bad move since neither site has a reliable alternative.

P.S.: The argument is that you don't have page views to pay for the site, but your updater's are more of the same, they also bypass the page view thing.

[Tuhljin]

WoWI's updater (or the WoWI module of the updater) will generate ad revenue for WoWI.