Microsoft sneaks Firefox add-on without user knowledge

[Petrah]

Much <3 to Republic! =)

I have a question for anyone wishing to answer. Who would need this net framework assistant and why?

[Republic]

Originally Posted by stormkeep ...MS makes full details of every service pack available, and it doesn't usually even take that long to at least read through them. Vista SP2, for example, comes with an excel spreadsheet with an item by item list of what's in it and links to the relevant online detail of what each entails. I think you have a slightly exaggerated view of how difficult it is to get the information in question. It's relatively simple and painless. The only downside is that it does take time, and alot of people don't like doing what they consider "a waste of time".

One word for Vista users...Millennium.

Who honestly considers themself a techie and uses Vista? I don't know of too many, especially any that also consider themself a serious gamer. Most serious users are waiting for Windows 7 (at least that we work with on a regular basis). Of course, not that it will be the best thing ever (if beta quality is an indication of things to come - BEWARE PEOPLE), but it at least is intended to have a longer stay in the market than Vista.

And...give up trying to convince me you know/knew every aspect of change brought forth in the packages called SP2, SP3, etc. Anyone can read the snippets you continue referring to here, but even they don't fully explain all aspects of functionality. They never have, never will. It's one of the things that keeps people like myself in business.

[stormkeep]

Originally Posted by Republic One word for Vista users...Millennium. Who honestly considers themself a techie and uses Vista? I don't know of too many, especially any that also consider themself a serious gamer.

Anyone who also has several DX10 games and actually likes DX10. There are actually games out now that not only look better with DX10, but perform better because they were optimized for it and not for DX9.

Additionally, any gamer with a high end video card and alot of RAM is better served by Vista 64, as XP limits the amount of total RAM available to each application. I have games where Vista 64 is pretty much required if you want to use the highest resolution textures available for them.

There's a lot more false information than accurate out there about Vista. Once you actually take the time to learn the differences and separate the garbage from the truth it's a decent OS. People who are overly critical of Vista are definitely NOT techie's, because they haven't done any of that.

And lastly, anyone who has a newer laptop, irregardless of whether they are a techie or a gamer or neither, is going to be using Vista. Rolling back is simply not possible because some of the hardware has no driver support available for XP. I'm surprised you didn't know that if you actually work in the industry like you claim to.

For the record, where I work we did NOT do a complete upgrade to Vista, for good reasons. But, most of our newest laptops and even desktops have it and there have been no issues related to the rollout of those. Only the learning curve for the IT department.

[Petrah]

Can we please get back on topic?

[stormkeep]

Originally Posted by Silenia Can we please get back on topic?

Sorry! I apologize for going on so off-topic. I took umbrage at being called a liar.

To remedy this, I'll go back on topic.

Originally Posted by Silenia Much <3 to Republic! =) I have a question for anyone wishing to answer. Who would need this net framework assistant and why?

This would be needed only by someone who wants the .NET functionality provided while also continuing to use Firefox as their default browser. Typically this would be in a business environment where the business decision was made to us Firefox as the client and .NET applications are deployed. Even where users don't have a need for it, it's useful for the Tech department folks, as alot of the windows administration tools are .NET.

I can't honestly think of a single thing a home user would need this for, although I am sure there is something out there that makes it useful to at least some folks in their home.

On my end, the only place .NET is used on my home machines is the game launcher for two of my games and some of the Windows Live software. In all cases this doesn't actually involve or require my default web browser, so the plugin is not necessary. I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is probably true of most users who are not using their PC's for anything work related. Even for those that would have a use for it, Internet Explorer is almost assuredly on their machines....getting rid of it is way too much of a hassle for most. So even then, they really don't "need" it. More a matter of convenience I would guess.

Fortunately, as already posted, there's already an update to make getting rid of it easier for those who were duped into it:

Originally Posted by Sepioth Actually they fixed that. So yeah it is easily uninstalled by simply going to Tools>Addons>Uninstall in Firefox. Update to allow the Uninstall button to work is HERE

[Astrocanis]

Originally Posted by stormkeep Where I came from sneaking means you are trying to avoid detection. If they were trying to avoid detection they wouldn't say right in the details what it does and how to remove it. Call it underhanded if you want, but "Sneaky" it wasn't. And btw, yes, I consider it foolish to have completely "automatic updates" for anything other than AV/Anti-spyware foolish. Windows Update has a very nice tool that tells you what is available and lets you first read the details, and then choose what to update. It's the smart thing to do so that if something DOES go wrong you actually know what the heck recently changed. The simple fact is that a person's PC is NOT going to have anything they don't want installed onto it unless they CHOOSE to do so. Choosing to let MS automatically install what they want by having auto-update on is user choice, plain and simple. And there's no one the user can blame but themself, imho. MS doesn't do stealth auto-updates. The updates are documented and users only get them automatically if they have chosen to do so. Yet you think the blame should fall more on the company than on the users who told them "go ahead and put what you want on my machine"? That's the problem with society today, no one wants to be accountable for their own choices.

It's a question of trust. And despite the geek-factor on the internet, there are still a lot of people who haven't been swimming in MS Hate. I don't care for Microsoft myself, so don't get me wrong. But accusing people of stupidity (while some it may be true of, not all) and conflating that with trust or naivete is just wrong.

And yes, I do believe it falls more on the company. Absolutely. Do you check the contents of gasoline before you fill your tank? Do you inspect the restaurant kitchen before you eat? Most users of PCs are no different than that. If someone spits in your chicken soup, do you blame yourself for not having a chemical testing kit before you eat, or do you blame the restaurant?

[Zyonin]

The only time I have ever encountered a web based .Net application (thus requiring any kind of plug-in/extension for Firefox) was the initial download/installation for later versions of WoWAceUpdater. WAU was coded in .NET and later versions dispensed with the traditional installer package in favor of a web based "ClickOnce" installer. However out of 13+ years of my online presence, that is the ONLY time I ever seen ClickOnce (which is enabled in FF by this extension that this brooha is about) used. Thus as a home user, tech enthusiast and family based tech support dept, I don't see a need for this extension in the first place.

If Microsoft thinks that ClickOnce will get wider adoption outside of corporate intranets, they will find that they are sadly mistaken. I see a far greater usage of Java Web Start applications which don't require special browser extensions/plug-ins other than the usual JRE which most web users already have installed. A good example of a Java Web Start application is the installer for WoWI/MMOUI's very own Minion

Regarding auto-updates, I don't quite turn off Windows Updater entirely. Instead I have it set to alert if new updates are ready to be downloaded, then I go through the list and select those that going to be downloaded. In this way I can manage my bandwidth usage, disc space, and what acutally gets installed. Then again, one of my favorite quotes is "Question Authority". I never allow silent updates, however many people I know have never bothered to change their Auto Update settings. IMHO as a tech enthusiast, developers (of any stripe) should NEVER allow silent installation of code that alters/adds to a third party application. I don't care if the what the code is and does is documented on the developer's web site, most user won't even think to read the site. In the case of ClickOnce, it should be that the extension is offered only when the user encounters a ClickOnce installer, and even then, what the extension will do should be spelled in clear Layman (not Microsoft-speak or Marketing Drone).

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by stormkeep All valid points, except for the restaurant example...those all have to have clearly displayed grades from the health inspectors that checked their kitchens for us. Of course, this requires us to have trust in those inspectors so still makes the point. I admit I do consider most computer users pretty dense; the crazy things I have to fix day in and day out make it so. These people don't need to be IT professionals, they just need to learn to read before clicking things they don't know anything about. It comes down to one thing, ignorance, and the average person is ignorant by choice, usually because of a lack of willingness to expend their own energy to expand their knowledge. Just in the last 2 weeks I have had to "fix" 3 laptops. The problem, the user tried to roll back from Vista to XP on a laptop that came with Vista on it. IN all 3 cases the laptop could not even run XP due to a lack of OEM support for certain hardware (video in one case, hard drive in the other 2). The users were bright enough to do an install, but too lazy to first make sure it COULD be installed. So yes... I do look down my nose at the average computer udrt, for good reason. Stupidity is not what it is about, laziness is.

I'm a mechanical contractor (electrical primarily), and by your examples, I should look down my nose at people who don't pay attention to the obvious details (well, I went to school for this field, so it's obvious to ME) that make them call me? If everyone went by that logic, no one would be employed except teachers and college professors, because everyone "should not be so lazy" to not fix things, install things, or remove things themselves. You look down your nose at people who provide you with a living... how can anyone respect that? Get over yourself.

[Zimran]

I didn't read everything so I might be rehashing but some people have privacy concerns with Google's Chrome. For those that are concerned there is SRWare's Iron browser based on the Chromium source.

http://www.srware.net/en/software_srware_iron.php

For adblocking they have an in house solution at:

http://www.srware.net/downloads/adblock.ini

Or you can take a look at AdSweep:

http://www.adsweep.org/

Personally, I still use Firefox and AdBlock Plus because it makes it easy to allow certain sites that I display and click ads on (such as WoWI). I don't vouch for Iron or AdSweep, just FYI.

[Slakah]

And lastly, anyone who has a newer laptop, irregardless of whether they are a techie or a gamer or neither, is going to be using Vista. Rolling back is simply not possible because some of the hardware has no driver support available for XP. I'm surprised you didn't know that if you actually work in the industry like you claim to.

My laptop is less than a year old and it didn't come shipped with Vista, it had Linpus Linux :P.

As for the whole Vista vs XP thing, it costs £124.92 I'm not going to pay that for what little upgrade it gives me /shrug.

[Gemini_II]

Originally Posted by Republic One word for Vista users...Millennium.

QFT. Best upgrade for Vista is to install XP.

(Hopefully Windows 7 shapes up to be an actual OS upgrade... but that's another thread)

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Gemini_II QFT. Best upgrade for Vista is to install XP. (Hopefully Windows 7 shapes up to be an actual OS upgrade... but that's another thread)

QFT? You clearly lack the capacity to understand the context in which I was speaking. Let me break it down for you, as you appear to need help...

Vista is to XP as Millennium was to 98...that is, a worthless piece of a marketing toy upgrade to bide time for developers to put out the real upgrade product (Windows 7).

I cannot stand Vista and don't consider anyone using it (especially "tech types") to be any type of power user as they'd like to be thought of. For example, the neat guys who list their system specs in forum sigs (not necessarily here, but we've all seen 'em) down to the color of their damned mouse while listing Vista as their OS. To me, they look like bigger idiots than the people who haven't a clue. It's like they're smart enough to build their own rig and choose a red special edition mouse, but they're too stupid to use a performance OS (which VISTA is not, even in current build).

Do you understand now? If not, I'm not sure I can say much more to help you. XP remains the best gaming OS on the current market. Windows 7 is expected to be the next major OS, not Vista (again, just like the Windows ME was for Windows 98 while waiting for Windows XP).

/shrug

We basically have the same opinion on Vista yet you somehow missed my message. Oh well, perhaps you get it now.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by Republic For example, the neat guys who list their system specs in forum sigs

While I cannot speak for others or why they put their system specs in their sigs, I can say why I do it. For many years while I was married my X husband picked out and built my systems for me. Since my divorce, this is my first build where I chose the parts and I built it myself. I'm a single mom in her mid 40's and I consider it a huge accomplishment for myself... so yes, I'm damned proud of the system I built and I wanna show it off in my sig.

[Gako]

Wooo!
<-- Mac User
Wooo!

[stormkeep]

Originally Posted by Republic For example, the neat guys who list their system specs in forum sigs (not necessarily here, but we've all seen 'em) down to the color of their damned mouse while listing Vista as their OS. To me, they look like bigger idiots than the people who haven't a clue. It's like they're smart enough to build their own rig and choose a red special edition mouse, but they're too stupid to use a performance OS (which VISTA is not, even in current build).

In a lot of technology and gaming forums the reason for having rig-specs in sigs is so no one has to ask you to give that info in any topics where what hardware you have is actually relevant. It's a matter of convenience for many of the people who do it, not some kind of bragging rights. I've seen people get called out on some such forums for not being "polite" enough to list those specs in their sigs.

Of course, the ones that go so far as to list mouse-color are perhaps going beyond necessity.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Republic QFT? You clearly lack the capacity to understand the context in which I was speaking. Let me break it down for you, as you appear to need help... Vista is to XP as Millennium was to 98...that is, a worthless piece of a marketing toy upgrade to bide time for developers to put out the real upgrade product (Windows 7). I cannot stand Vista and don't consider anyone using it (especially "tech types") to be any type of power user as they'd like to be thought of. For example, the neat guys who list their system specs in forum sigs (not necessarily here, but we've all seen 'em) down to the color of their damned mouse while listing Vista as their OS. To me, they look like bigger idiots than the people who haven't a clue. It's like they're smart enough to build their own rig and choose a red special edition mouse, but they're too stupid to use a performance OS (which VISTA is not, even in current build). Do you understand now? If not, I'm not sure I can say much more to help you. XP remains the best gaming OS on the current market. Windows 7 is expected to be the next major OS, not Vista (again, just like the Windows ME was for Windows 98 while waiting for Windows XP). /shrug We basically have the same opinion on Vista yet you somehow missed my message. Oh well, perhaps you get it now.

<----- Runs Vista.
<----- Computer Programmer

In my experience, the people who get this worked up about Vista, usually haven't used it long enough to know what they are talking about. I have machines that run Vista, I also have machines that run XP. Aside from the file copy bug (Fixed in SP1), I've seen no noticeable performance difference between the two. I'm not saying the guys with the FPS counters are making up their numbers, but personally I can't tell the difference between 130 vs 120 FPS so I'm not going to worry about it. On the other hand Crysis looks noticeably sharper in DX10 than DX9.

Understand, I'm not a Microsoft fan boy, for programming and general use I prefer Linux, Windows is my gaming OS. But really, the vehemence out there against Vista is just silly, especially since no one ever says why they hate it, they just do.

/Return to topic

I actually have to agree with the title of this article. It was a sneaky move on Microsofts part. Not because they have no business offering a Firefox addon (they certainly do), but because when I see an update titled SP Upgrade for .NET (or whatever the exact title was) I should be able to reasonably expect it to make changes to .NET not Firefox. Now if they had named it .NET Compatibility Update for .NET... no issue there.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by stormkeep In a lot of technology and gaming forums the reason for having rig-specs in sigs is so no one has to ask you to give that info in any topics where what hardware you have is actually relevant. It's a matter of convenience for many of the people who do it, not some kind of bragging rights. I've seen people get called out on some such forums for not being "polite" enough to list those specs in their sigs. Of course, the ones that go so far as to list mouse-color are perhaps going beyond necessity.

Thanks for that newsflash. I never would have known...

/sigh

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Vyper <----- Runs Vista. <----- Computer Programmer In my experience, the people who get this worked up about Vista, usually haven't used it long enough to know what they are talking about. I have machines that run Vista, I also have machines that run XP. Aside from the file copy bug (Fixed in SP1), I've seen no noticeable performance difference between the two. I'm not saying the guys with the FPS counters are making up their numbers, but personally I can't tell the difference between 130 vs 120 FPS so I'm not going to worry about it. On the other hand Crysis looks noticeably sharper in DX10 than DX9. Understand, I'm not a Microsoft fan boy, for programming and general use I prefer Linux, Windows is my gaming OS. But really, the vehemence out there against Vista is just silly, especially since no one ever says why they hate it, they just do. /Return to topic I actually have to agree with the title of this article. It was a sneaky move on Microsofts part. Not because they have no business offering a Firefox addon (they certainly do), but because when I see an update titled SP Upgrade for .NET (or whatever the exact title was) I should be able to reasonably expect it to make changes to .NET not Firefox. Now if they had named it .NET Compatibility Update for .NET... no issue there.

Programmers are right up there with accountants and perhaps tax lawyers the strangest human beings walking the planet. I'd engage you in a discussion of OS bloat and its affects on gaming performance but I have a feeling you'd take a stance I couldn't possibly understand Let's just say that I've imaged many systems with all kinds of operating systems and I have legitimate reasons for making the choices and preferences I make

I simply wouldn't install Vista on a "friend's" computer if I had other choices. Know what I mean?

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Silenia While I cannot speak for others or why they put their system specs in their sigs, I can say why I do it. For many years while I was married my X husband picked out and built my systems for me. Since my divorce, this is my first build where I chose the parts and I built it myself. I'm a single mom in her mid 40's and I consider it a huge accomplishment for myself... so yes, I'm damned proud of the system I built and I wanna show it off in my sig.

Naw, you misunderstand me. I was talking about the neat guys that list the color of their mouse, not so much basic specs. I get that much

Also, if I understand you correctly...you're single????

Might I ask....how YOU doin?

/kidding

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by Republic Naw, you misunderstand me. I was talking about the neat guys that list the color of their mouse, not so much basic specs. I get that much Also, if I understand you correctly...you're single???? Might I ask....how YOU doin? /kidding

Ah, yes. I see what you meant now heh. Thanks for the clarification!

Single probably wasn't the best choice of words to use I guess. Divorced should of sufficed. As for your previous comment about programmers... oh yes I most certainly do agree. I'm dating a programmer and they are without a doubt very different lol.