Premium User Updater API

septor · 04-19-09, 08:48 AM

Due to the recent changes here on WoWI and over at Curse regarding the disabling of WowMatrix (which I 100% support, btw) many other updaters were broken (also not a bad thing overall). With this I'd like to make a suggestion that would do two things:

Give back to the sites that these updaters pulled data from, and
Decrease their overall use and increase the use of the respective sites official updater.

I propose any user that has a premium subscription get access to a code of some sort that allowed their account the ability to download addons via any updater that used the site's API. Restrictions could be put in place to only allow a defined amount of addons to be updated based on subscription level, or only allow "update all" options to exist for an additional fee.

Obviously this isn't going to increase the amount of people that subscribe but it gives people who do subscribe, or that are willing to subscribe for such a thing, an option other than using the sites updater or manually installing their addons.

As you may have guessed, this will deter the user of third-party updaters a little because not everyone can or will subscribe just to do something they can manually in a browser (actually judging by the amount of people whining because they now have to do this I'm not so sure this comment is true!). Which means either users will go to the sites to get their updates or will use the site's updater. In all cases everyone wins.

Keep in mind that the actual API should be public to use. Certain features of the API, however, can only be activated if the user using the updater that is using the API (weee) has a premium subscription.

Some things the API could do:

Provide easy to access information about addons. Addon name, author name, version numbers, change logs, etc. (non-premium feature)
Allow downloading of addons (premium feature)
Provide a standard means for updaters to include donation info for addon authors, if the author choose to utilize the donation feature on the site. (non-premium feature)

Note: To get the change log portion of the addon information to be at all useful, authors would have to start really maintaining their change log tabs and only cram in actually changes and not to-do lists, known bugs, and future ideas (perhaps new tabs could be created for these purposes?).

Keep in mind the list above is not all inclusive, and can be modified to work better for the site.

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I will be updating this post as this thread develops to better push this idea forward.

Republic · 04-19-09, 11:41 AM

I prefer to manually download everything. I for one consider myself a control freak when it comes to my pc's and their security. I cannot stand using updaters that perform tasks automatically. I simply don't need that functionality. I don't trust automatic updating and/or programs that support such a task. While it's true that this site is among my most trusted in all of gaming, I still would never want to use an automatic updater.

I don't think it's too difficult to update things manually. I use a minimal set of addons that provide basic extensions to functionality that I think should have been in the game to begin with. I don't need addons that turn on my computer, log in to wow, select my character, tells my friends their hair looks lovely for the day, tells me which spells to use at what times, loots mobs, buries the dead, taunts the opposite faction, while maintaining my bank, selling my garbage, detecting when I'm tired, logging me out of the game, shutting down my computer, preparing dinner for me (okay, I might be willing to pay for something that does this), tells me which tv show to watch, puts me to bed when I start dozing off, etc. Know what I mean?

I learned a long time ago to keep things simple. Too many addons come and go for me to get attached to. The simple set of mess I use doesn't need any type of automatic updating. Oh, did I mention that I was also a control freak? Yeah, so there you have my opinion.

If you need an automatic updater because the amount of addons you use becomes too difficult to manually update, I generally think you also need the game to remind you to breathe and I can't relate to you! We play for different reasons!

septor · 04-19-09, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Republic

I prefer to manually download everything. I for one consider myself a control freak when it comes to my pc's and their security. I cannot stand using updaters that perform tasks automatically. I simply don't need that functionality. I don't trust automatic updating and/or programs that support such a task. While it's true that this site is among my most trusted in all of gaming, I still would never want to use an automatic updater.

I don't think it's too difficult to update things manually. I use a minimal set of addons that provide basic extensions to functionality that I think should have been in the game to begin with. I don't need addons that turn on my computer, log in to wow, select my character, tells my friends their hair looks lovely for the day, tells me which spells to use at what times, loots mobs, buries the dead, taunts the opposite faction, while maintaining my bank, selling my garbage, detecting when I'm tired, logging me out of the game, shutting down my computer, preparing dinner for me (okay, I might be willing to pay for something that does this), tells me which tv show to watch, puts me to bed when I start dozing off, etc. Know what I mean?

I learned a long time ago to keep things simple. Too many addons come and go for me to get attached to. The simple set of mess I use doesn't need any type of automatic updating. Oh, did I mention that I was also a control freak? Yeah, so there you have my opinion.

If you need an automatic updater because the amount of addons you use becomes too difficult to manually update, I generally think you also need the game to remind you to breathe and I can't relate to you! We play for different reasons!

I could kick myself for not seeing this coming.

I completely agree with you, but the idea wasn't so people could start an application, regardless of how it's paid for, and one-click update all their addons before they launch WoW. I think WAU was terrible for allowing this to happen as it's allowed this type of thinking to happen in the first place. There is no reason to ever mass-update ALL your addons at any time. Especially on patch days.

The API could limit the amount of updates per user per day. It could also provide updater developers with the means to attach the changelog of all addons so end users can, before they update, check to see if any issues they are having are fixed or if any new features have been added that they want to try (the only two reasons anyone should be updating their addons to begin with).

Of course people can wait for the official updater from WoWI to be released as well as use the Curse Client to get their updates if they don't want to browse the sites. I'm just trying to throw out constructive ideas for people who want to use a single updater to get updates from both sites while still giving the addon hosting sites compensation for the bandwidth usage.

Petrah · 04-19-09, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Republic

I prefer to manually download everything. I for one consider myself a control freak when it comes to my pc's and their security.

While having something taunt the opposite faction for me would be neat as hell, I tend to agree with you about manual downloads and security. Besides, the average addon doesn't get updated that often. Aside from patch day and a week or so after, the only addons I ever updated within a 30 day period was Carbonite, nUI, and Recount.

If I need an auto updater for a handful of addons that "might" get updated more than once every two weeks, then I'm one seriously lazy person.

***Cairenn*** · 04-19-09, 12:57 PM

Hey septor. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know how feasible the idea is, but then again, I'm not a programmer. It may be that what you are suggesting is possible, I don't know. I do know, however, that we really do love feedback and suggestions like these. When someone is willing to give us rational, well thought out, feedback we are more than happy to consider it, see if it is feasible and decide whether we want to try to make it happen.

Just for info, we hope that we will eventually be able to completely turn off the protections we put in place. We don't like having them on any more than any of our users. They cause problems for some folks. Usually we can figure out why they are having the problem and get it fixed, but it'd still be nice to not need them at all. Unfortunately, we have to have them in place for now. Maybe someday we'll be able to go back to the way it was?

I definitely understand what you are saying and am not at all bothered by it. Suggestion taken properly in the intended way.

septor · 04-19-09, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

While having something taunt the opposite faction for me would be neat as hell, I tend to agree with you about manual downloads and security. Besides, the average addon doesn't get updated that often. Aside from patch day and a week or so after, the only addons I ever updated within a 30 day period was Carbonite, nUI, and Recount.

If I need an auto updater for a handful of addons that "might" get updated more than once every two weeks, then I'm one seriously lazy person.

This is one reason why my idea is no good. If it were to work effectively an average user would only ever need to use it's features at best once a week.

That said, I think a lot of people that run an automatic updater don't actually see what is getting updated in the addon that "needs an update now holy crap!". Maybe, I say this extremely lightly, if people were to see that only 2 out of the 150 addons that have updates available actually added more than a language file or a TOC bump they wouldn't process the update.

The API I'm asking for could be done by all major addon hosting sites (I know I'm really stretching with this one) so that users only need to load up one application to check for addon updates on all the sites.

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Hey septor. Thanks for the suggestion. I don't know how feasible the idea is, but then again, I'm not a programmer. It may be that what you are suggesting is possible, I don't know. I do know, however, that we really do love feedback and suggestions like these. When someone is willing to give us rational, well thought out, feedback we are more than happy to consider it, see if it is feasible and decide whether we want to try to make it happen.

Just for info, we hope that we will eventually be able to completely turn off the protections we put in place. We don't like having them on any more than any of our users. They cause problems for some folks. Usually we can figure out why they are having the problem and get it fixed, but it'd still be nice to not need them at all. Unfortunately, we have to have them in place for now. Maybe someday we'll be able to go back to the way it was?

I definitely understand what you are saying and am not at all bothered by it. Suggestion taken properly in the intended way.

I'm actually not affected by the recent change at all. I've manually updated all my addons since WAU died so I've got no beef if this idea never happens.

I personally think this is the next logical step in combating WowMatrix like programs (not taking a stab at third-party updaters, just those that refuse to work with hosting sites) is to say, "Here's a way for you to develop your program while still allowing us to not drown in bandwidth bills.".

I say this because the second you reopen things to how they were WowMatrix like programs will jump all over the chance to get back to their old ways.

Republic · 04-19-09, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

If I need an auto updater for a handful of addons that "might" get updated more than once every two weeks, then I'm one seriously lazy person.

Yep, I'd agree with you here. On a related note, I have zero confidence in automatic updaters being able to do clean installations of things. Sometimes, and I know it isn't often, it helps to completely remove an addon and all related saved variable files to get an updated version working properly. This makes a control freak even more paranoid about an automatic updating process searching folders and deleting files, etc.

To the OP, I wasn't really suggesting your idea was bad in any way, just that it may not be for everyone. At least, not for someone like me. Hell, I don't even allow Windows to update itself automatically! I prefer to manually update literally everything on my pc's.

septor · 04-19-09, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Republic

Yep, I'd agree with you here. On a related note, I have zero confidence in automatic updaters being able to do clean installations of things. Sometimes, and I know it isn't often, it helps to completely remove an addon and all related saved variable files to get an updated version working properly. This makes a control freak even more paranoid about an automatic updating process searching folders and deleting files, etc.

This is exactly why I am a fan of open source projects. When people, lots of people in this case, have the ability to view the source code of projects there's less of a chance malicious things will creep in.

That said, I am completely against automatic updating of anything. Sure you can inform me that there are updates ready, but there isn't a chance in hell anything will ever get permission to automatically download and/or install anything on my computer.

However, these types of discussion are better left for the developers who choose to create applications that use the API and not for the fight for or against the API's creation.

Originally Posted by Republic

To the OP, I wasn't really suggesting your idea was bad in any way, just that it may not be for everyone. At least, not for someone like me. Hell, I don't even allow Windows to update itself automatically! I prefer to manually update literally everything on my pc's.

I know it won't be for everyone. There's actually a good chance I'll never even benefit from such an API. I'm just trying to get the ball rolling for something like to this to exist for people who will use it.

**Seerah** · 04-19-09, 05:14 PM

This is just a reminder that the new updater for our site will support modules written for it for any site. You could have a module for http://war.mmoui.com a module for Curse, a module for the CT site, etc. Once that API is released (when the updater is ready for it) then the developers just need to write the software for them.

A module for Curse could even show Curse's news and Curse's ads.

MidgetMage55 · 04-19-09, 08:08 PM

Sounds like a nifty idea. One thing that i saw that could potentially be an issue is the bit about the change logs. I try to read all the change logs of the addons i get to see if need to bother with the particular update. Quite a few times i click the change log tab only to see 'Change log packaged in the download.' And its on more addons then you might think.

For this to have that little bit (and i think it would be somewhat important) there would have to some upload guideline about putting the changelog up in a way that the API could give that info.

Other than that it sounds like a nice idea. Hopefully one of these days ill actually have the spare cash to donate to the site that's keeping my UI addiction healthy and happy to take advantage of such possibilities.

septor · 04-19-09, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Seerah

This is just a reminder that the new updater for our site will support modules written for it for any site. You could have a module for http://war.mmoui.com a module for Curse, a module for the CT site, etc. Once that API is released (when the updater is ready for it) then the developers just need to write the software for them.

A module for Curse could even show Curse's news and Curse's ads.

Awesome news indeed.

I still stand by my idea. Mostly because variety is good.

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55

Sounds like a nifty idea. One thing that i saw that could potentially be an issue is the bit about the change logs. I try to read all the change logs of the addons i get to see if need to bother with the particular update. Quite a few times i click the change log tab only to see 'Change log packaged in the download.' And its on more addons then you might think.

For this to have that little bit (and i think it would be somewhat important) there would have to some upload guideline about putting the changelog up in a way that the API could give that info.

Other than that it sounds like a nice idea. Hopefully one of these days ill actually have the spare cash to donate to the site that's keeping my UI addiction healthy and happy to take advantage of such possibilities.

I thought of that too. Not really sure how to combat this problem though. Guidelines for change logs is an alright idea, but I really don't think it can, or more importantly should, be enforced.

**Seerah** · 04-19-09, 09:34 PM

The updater will handle changelogs, as shown in this preview screenshot (taken from this thread):

As you can see, there is an additional tab for LightHeaded in the small window so that you can view its changelog. This would just be a copy of whatever is in the changelog field for addon pages. But we cannot dictate how authors choose to use this changelog feature of our site.

septor · 04-19-09, 10:04 PM

Well GG my idea then!

**Seerah** · 04-19-09, 11:19 PM

Keep the suggestions coming.

Xrystal · 04-20-09, 01:30 AM

Rofl, this is exactly what I do.

I've tried wow matrix for the ease of the thing and used to run it once a week or longer just to see if anything was updated that was important like omen, deadlybossmods etc. But when we had a security scare in the guild that was suggested may have been due to the use of wowmatrix I and many others promptly dropped the use of it. With the arrival of the blizz security device the use of it has resurfaced by many users as it simply cuts down what they need to do before they play.

What I do now however is once a month (usually the beginning) move all addons into a back up folder (just in case a new version bugs out on me) and anything that has WTF values I want to keep (altoholic/guildorg etc) moved similarly. Then I remove all addons and wtf files and go through and download everything again. If it hasn't been updated in the last month I use the one I already have. If I see an addon that looks to be better or do more than what an existing one I use does then I try it out.

However, on patch days, I do my downloading before the servers come up so that my addons are ready. I had no problems downloading my addons on patch day. But the next day (which was Europes patch day) it was hell for me and a particular addon I thought I didnt need but did in the end I couldn't download a new version for a day or two. It seemed to think IE was an automatic downloader for some reason, and was insisting I type a bunch of letters/numbers and saying I was doing it wrong - sigh. Ended up giving up and going back to my backup copy until the servers had sorted themselves out so I could download an updated one.

Originally Posted by Republic

Yep, I'd agree with you here. On a related note, I have zero confidence in automatic updaters being able to do clean installations of things. Sometimes, and I know it isn't often, it helps to completely remove an addon and all related saved variable files to get an updated version working properly. This makes a control freak even more paranoid about an automatic updating process searching folders and deleting files, etc.

septor · 04-20-09, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Seerah

Keep the suggestions coming.

For simplicity I'm going to make suggestions in the new updater thread. Feel free to close this unless you, or anyone else, thinks this idea would still be beneficial.

**Seerah** · 04-20-09, 02:52 PM

Thank you, septor. And, nah - we'll leave it open. No reason to close it.

DonCorneo · 04-22-09, 12:17 PM

Question is: Will Curse be willing to make a module? Curse seems hell-bent on making their exclusive updater, which will work one way for free, another way if you pay for Premium Membership. To me, this sounds like it's all about making money, not servicing the AddOn Community.
What WI is proposing to make here is what most of us are looking for, an updater that can update an AddOn from any major site (from the sounds of it, any site at all). From the little I've seen about WI's proposed client, it will be free since it will have ads.
Now the question will be security. We all know that there are low-lifes out there who for whatever reason must use something good like this to cause problems. Will this updater be able to prevent key loggers and such, especially ones that are uploaded through ads?
Is there a projected launch date for the updater? I understand that there is still much to do, but this is just a tease without an actual launch date.
Has WI contacted other sites about them making modules for the updater? Can you post a list of sites considering making a module?
If WI pulls this off quickly, I may be inclined to overlook the fact WI did not warn the users of the banning of WM, or at least to have implimented the ban, BEFORE patch day.

MidgetMage55 · 04-22-09, 12:38 PM

They did warn users roughly 24 hours in advance. Have to have been to the site to see it though. No other way to warn people reliably with the systems as they are now.

I would imagine the reason no official date has been announced is due to time availability to get the project done. Shirik is doing this work between school, work and other real life concerns. Its done in his spare time. No point in posting a relase date you can't make on time (Diablo 2 anyone?) all you end up doing is opening yourself up to ridicule from people when you cant make that deadline.

Best thing to do on that front is to subscribe to the RSS news feed from the site as I'm fairly certain it will be announced on the front page when its done.

Seerah mentioned in another thread that other sites are aware of the project and the availability to make modules for it. 2 of them are regular posters and visitors to this site (that I've seen anyway) though no official statement has been said about them making modules currently.

**Shirik** · 04-22-09, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by DonCorneo

Will this updater be able to prevent key loggers and such, especially ones that are uploaded through ads?

There will be a security manager installed that will monitor and restrict the actions of modules. Modules will have to be signed if they want to gain special privileges, and the user will have to approve their access at least once.

This API has not been defined yet, so that is one of the things that will change in the near future. However, this is very much planned.

EDIT: With regards to ads, I patch into your OS-specific browser in a restricted functionality mode. While this means that ads should not be able to break through and install themselves, it's theoretically possible for a browser to have a security-related bug in it and get through. Depending on how it's distributed, this might be caught by the security manager and it might get through, but unfortunately there's nothing I can do about this. If you keep to updates, you should be fine. The ad window can NOT download files on its own, etc., without a bug in your browser. These need to be addressed by the creators of the browser.

That being said, I do not anticipate this being a problem. If this were a problem, we would see it more on the site itself; it would not be solely linked to this program.