View Poll Results: Would you join a membership-based MazzleUI site?
Yes, I would pay $5-$10 per month for regular and continued feature additions and updates. 48 49.48%
No, that is not worth it to me. 27 27.84%
No, I don't use MazzleUI, and I hope it dies in a fire for all the undeserved attention it gets. 22 22.68%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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07-20-07, 03:09 AM   #21
alan120880
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legal speak asside, dependant on price of course i whould be willing to subscribe to a site that kept this UI up to date, at this momnet in time there is no requierment for it, but i whould still be willing to do so.

i am sry that u have lost the drive that origananly made u want to create this and i hope that somthing else sparks ur interest and gives u back the deisre to create such wonderful work again.

keep safe
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07-20-07, 03:28 AM   #22
Ammo
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Paying for access to downloads is almost the same as paying directly for the software.

It at least feels that way a lot. Hence I'm with taddmrr, you're not getting the my addons for that.

-Ammo
 
07-20-07, 04:11 AM   #23
Maxian
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Finally i hope you get this working Mazzle ill be happy to become a member right away!
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07-20-07, 09:05 AM   #24
Ringleron
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Originally Posted by Ammo
Paying for access to downloads is almost the same as paying directly for the software.

It at least feels that way a lot. Hence I'm with taddmrr, you're not getting the my addons for that.

-Ammo
To me, I somewhat agree with Ammo and Taddmrr that paying to download the software whether in the specific site or not is still paying for the software.

I don't think WoWInterface.com's PREMIUM pay way apply to the future MazzleUI Site pay way as WoWInterface.com still allows NON-PAYING users to download all of the addons.

Now, if Mazzlefizz were re-write the "functionality" of ALL of the addons in MazzleUI (i.e. making the actual codes his/her own design) and there by making it a shareware software (i.e. having registration/serial number or what ever software become a shareware product) then that would be an option.

But, what can Mazzlefizz do if a paying user distributes her own code? I'm sure all of the shareware products have these type of piracy.

Secondly, the code that Mazzlefizz will write is strict ASCII text file and depends on a 3rd party Application (EXE) software (WOW). What would prevent the RE-USE of said code? Not that I'd be grabbing his/her code and change it to my own personal uses, but, I'm sure other people have already done that in the current versions of MazzleUI 1.10.

Can it be a "Support site" much like how Microsoft does about those premium calls as support for their software? People pay for their technical assistance. But, won't that allianate non-paying users of the Addon?


Just my few cents...

I too still haven't voted as I don't know how "exactly" it will be done.
 
07-20-07, 09:52 AM   #25
Kyahx
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I think $5 a month would be pushing it, and even at that rate you would need all of 3 people to "donate" and your month of wow is paid for. (MazzleUI is pretty popular, I find it hard to believe you aren't already bringing in at least $15 a month from open donations)

However, I can guarantee that if you did go to a pay system, your UI *will* be pirated elsewhere within a week. I think you will also see a decent backlash from authors who don't want their work, intended to be free, being "sold".

I know you can justify it either way, I know you put a lot of original code in yourself (and selling that is fine, its your code, do what you want), but I think you're going to run into a decent amount of issues from authors.
 
07-20-07, 10:02 AM   #26
blackfirefox
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Thumbs up Of Course I would

Mazzle,

I just downloaded your UI today. I think it is the best compliation of materials I seen to date! I have been trying to compile addons from here and there and ran across yours, it is more complete than anything I have seen thus far.

I would definately donate to your cause as I am not adept at development of mods or addons.
 
07-20-07, 10:07 AM   #27
i-right-i
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Lets suppose for a minute that you really could get past all the legalities (which is a HUGE stretch) and you go forward with this Subscription site for support or however you want to word it.

This poll is only going to represent a very small amount of your users. Most probably download your mod, install it, read it, and figure out when little things are not working. I have been using your mod since day 1, and i have like what 10 total posts on your fourms. Heck severeal posts in this thread are from people that have openly admitted that they don't even use your mod. I don't think a pay site is going to provide the kind of numbers you think it will, not when there are a bazillion other mods out there with about 80% of this functionality for free. In the end, the only piece that is truely yours is the mazzifier and the pre-made layouts. A very nice piece I might add.

Being a code writer myself (for a living), I don't see any real legal way to take this code private to make money (which is what you are really trying to do if you admit it or not). It just isn't going to happen without a complete and total re-write which based on your own admission isn't going to happen either due to your lack of interest in the project.

If WoW doesn't hold the candle for you anymore, and you have found LoTR to satisfy that need, then my suggestion is to just move on. Just cut and run. I use your mod, I myself would hate to see it die, but I would prefer that then what your proposing. The reason I say this because taking this in the direction you are proposing would only delay whats happening now (this is assuming you get the number of subscribers that you think you would). In time you would get bored with it again, and what happens then? I think the answer is obvious.

There is another option to keep it alive. Why not just release the code if someone is willing to take it on. Or would you be opposed to someone just forking this mod?

~i-right-i
 
07-20-07, 10:55 AM   #28
Layrajha
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Originally Posted by Kyahx
I think you will also see a decent backlash from authors who don't want their work, intended to be free, being "sold".
As I said, it's their problem if they release products without including a license that forbids that
If you take 20 GPL licensed addons that are coded by random authors you don't know and don't wish to contact, put them together in a zip file and add your name on it, you're legally allowed to sell it. Mazzle does more than that, which is good, but it's not even necessary. What I don't know if what license is assumed if there is none specified, as most UI authors don't really bother adding one. I assume that work published with no license is perfectly free to be copy-pasted anywhere and sold though.


Edit: Before we get into legalities, I hold the copyright on my addons. With that, I chose who distributes them. Period.
I also think that you legally don't hold any copyright if you don't specify it into the files you're broadcasting.



Edit:
And anyway, it's not like a license forbidding that use of your code would help. It's still possible to create hooks here and there, and to just put links to your addons, or even an executable file that will download them and put them where they have to be. I don't think that it's forbidden for a paying software to install a freeware, is it?

Last edited by Layrajha : 07-20-07 at 11:08 AM.
 
07-20-07, 10:57 AM   #29
Mazzlefizz
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Originally Posted by tardmrr
The difference is that RDX was selling his code-- not mine. I take offence at you wanting money for a compilation of addons written by other people, and should this go live, I would request my addons be removed from the pack. The fact that you expect to be paid for your "work" is ludicrous. If you expect sympathy from me for not getting the amount of donations you expected (and as a result, want to force users to pay) then you will be sadly disappointed. Open source software isn't about making money; it's about writing software because it's fun and giving back to the community. Don't try to leach from the community by selling it's own addons back to them.

Edit: Before we get into legalities, I hold the copyright on my addons. With that, I chose who distributes them. Period.
I was not proposing to sell your code or leeching and reselling things back to others. That's an unfair and insulting characterization. The description in the first post made a clear point that I was only offering my contributions. I could just as easily make only my add-ons available there, and people could download the other components on their own. And if people are going to take such an unfair stance on this matter, that's probably exactly what I'd do.

(And if I did do that, I'm sure others would soon create a compilation to save other people time from collecting them on their own. In the end, it would be just be a lot of convolution to no functional effect.)

Anyway, I was not asking for your sympathy about donations. I'm simply not playing WoW anymore, and am trying to find another mechanism to rationalize continue time expenditure on the the project, as opposed to simply abandoning the users.

- Mazzle

P.S. I know that some authors may resent that many users, especially the non-technical ones or ones who don't follow add-ons, may give compilations credit for things that they were not responsible for making. But that's not my fault. Quite the contrary, I, unlike other packages, have pursued unprecedented measures to educate users about add-ons and document exactly what I did and exactly what others did. I've made customized descriptions for every add-on, so people can learn more about them, citing the authors and web sites they can visit. Given all the tutorial resources I've written for the UI and the support given in the forums, I would like to think that I actually contribute to those same authors by lightening the support that would otherwise would be pointed in their direction.
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07-20-07, 10:58 AM   #30
Mazzlefizz
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Originally Posted by tardmrr
The difference is that RDX was selling his code-- not mine.
Actually, I think he made it very clear that he wasn't selling code at all. He was selling support.
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07-20-07, 11:06 AM   #31
iljott
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I'd consider paying for MazzleUI, if the price isn't too high - i.e. closer to $5 rather than $10. I do have to admit that I would have probably considered quitting WoW a long time ago if it hadn't been for MazzleUI, so I guess good things do come at a premium.
 
07-20-07, 11:18 AM   #32
Gemini_II
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Originally Posted by Layrajha
What I don't know if what license is assumed if there is none specified, as most UI authors don't really bother adding one. I assume that work published with no license is perfectly free to be copy-pasted anywhere and sold though.

I also think that you legally don't hold any copyright if you don't specify it into the files you're broadcasting.
It would default to intellectual copyright unless otherwise specified. Being the "creator" of something automatically implies this. That's why I said that Mazzle would have to remove any mod that an author requested be removed.
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07-20-07, 11:24 AM   #33
Mazzlefizz
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Originally Posted by i-right-i
Lets suppose for a minute that you really could get past all the legalities (which is a HUGE stretch) and you go forward with this Subscription site for support or however you want to word it.
Once again, I'm not proposing to sell anybody's stuff. Any legalities that you think are a huge stretch are already cleared by things like RDX and WoWEcon. Hell, I think that paid sites that offer faster patch downloads and the like to premium users aren't qualitatively different.

Originally Posted by i-right-i
This poll is only going to represent a very small amount of your users. Most probably download your mod, install it, read it, and figure out when little things are not working. I have been using your mod since day 1, and i have like what 10 total posts on your fourms. Heck severeal posts in this thread are from people that have openly admitted that they don't even use your mod. I don't think a pay site is going to provide the kind of numbers you think it will, not when there are a bazillion other mods out there with about 80% of this functionality for free.
Yeah, that may be true. That's what I'm trying to explore.

Originally Posted by i-right-i
In the end, the only piece that is truely yours is the mazzifier and the pre-made layouts..
That's not really true.

Originally Posted by i-right-i
Being a code writer myself (for a living), I don't see any real legal way to take this code private to make money (which is what you are really trying to do if you admit it or not). It just isn't going to happen without a complete and total re-write which based on your own admission isn't going to happen either due to your lack of interest in the project.
Again, I'm not trying to sell people's code. I'm not trying to make code private. I'm not interested in any sort of copy-protection scheme. It's completely a moot topic. If people download things and post elsewhere, there's nothing I could do other than object. I'm simply interested in knowing whether there's enough people who would see value in this and join to make this a viable idea.

Originally Posted by i-right-i
If WoW doesn't hold the candle for you anymore, and you have found LoTR to satisfy that need, then my suggestion is to just move on. Just cut and run. I use your mod, I myself would hate to see it die, but I would prefer that then what your proposing. The reason I say this because taking this in the direction you are proposing would only delay whats happening now (this is assuming you get the number of subscribers that you think you would). In time you would get bored with it again, and what happens then? I think the answer is obvious.
In some ways, what you just said is the opposite of the point. Something like this would provide an alternate and consistent motivation regardless of whether I'm bored or not.
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Last edited by Mazzlefizz : 07-20-07 at 11:34 AM.
 
07-20-07, 12:14 PM   #34
Kaomie
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You have to be really clear on what you do. You will be getting royalties from distributing third-party code. This is subject to licensing, period, regardless you call it "selling code" or what else. Fortunately I know of very few authors that actually include a license with their addon and if MazzleUI does not include any of those then you can do whatever you want (you will never run into the "free" as in freedom anyway since addons are plain text and are their own source, only the "free" as in costless).

You may probably be able to sell the support or sell alternate way of distribution (faster downloads, CDs or etc...). There is a very narrow frontier between selling added value to a product but keeping the core of the product freely accessible (which mean selling support or accepting donations or ...) and restricting and selling access to the product itself.
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07-20-07, 12:23 PM   #35
obsidianblack
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Why is everyone so hung up on the Idea that mazzle would be selling code. Each and every user of mazzleui is more than welcome to go and download each and every mod that mazzleui contains. As far as i can see all Mazzle is proposing doing is selling his services of setup as well as his unique coding that makes the setup more usable and more automated. He could just as easily say "okay here's my stuff go download the rest on your own." It doesn't change the fact that is is his hard work of putting this all together. Why shouldn't he get some kick backs for his work.

More over i there are no legal issues here at all. He's not selling anything but his time. And quite frankly I think that most if not all of the opponents of this are simply opposing cause they don't want to pay someone for their hard work.
 
07-20-07, 12:41 PM   #36
Kaomie
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It's nice and all to say you should get retributed for your hard work (and I do think there is an added value here), but you cannot capitalize on someone else work if that someone does not allow it to begin with. You have to accept you worked for free.

Again if a single addon is licensed and specifically mention how it can and cannot be distributed and whether it is allowed or not to ask for royalties, then yes this is a legal issue. I do not have the time to go through the whole MazzleUI pack to check the addons and there may (probably) be no problem.

Forgot to mention this would be within US laws, of course if Mazzle site happens to be located on some Pacific Atoll, then be it
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07-20-07, 01:16 PM   #37
Layrajha
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Originally Posted by Kaomie
It's nice and all to say you should get retributed for your hard work (and I do think there is an added value here), but you cannot capitalize on someone else work if that someone does not allow it to begin with.
Then those persons should clearly state IN THE FILES THEY PROVIDE that they reserve to themselves the right to distribute their work. I don't think that if you post a story on a blog, you can legally prosecute someone that sells a book that quotes your story. It's the same here. People are putting their work as free downloads on public sites, with no license in it, so...
 
07-20-07, 01:22 PM   #38
Gemini_II
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Originally Posted by obsidianblack
Why is everyone so hung up on the Idea that mazzle would be selling code. Each and every user of mazzleui is more than welcome to go and download each and every mod that mazzleui contains. As far as i can see all Mazzle is proposing doing is selling his services of setup as well as his unique coding that makes the setup more usable and more automated. He could just as easily say "okay here's my stuff go download the rest on your own." It doesn't change the fact that is is his hard work of putting this all together. Why shouldn't he get some kick backs for his work.

More over i there are no legal issues here at all. He's not selling anything but his time. And quite frankly I think that most if not all of the opponents of this are simply opposing cause they don't want to pay someone for their hard work.
Mazzle has suggested that s/he may do this. I wouldn't go so far as to say that his entire fanbase would be willing to package MazzleUI on their own; that's quite a stretch. She asked for input and therefore is receiving it. I think most people have been constructive and bring valued input. There is nothing wrong with asking for donations or even wanted to run a support site.

What some people's concern is, and rightfully so, is the legalities. If you believe there are none, then sorry but you are wrong. Even if no license is specified, Intellectual Copyright is automatically implied. Licensing, legalities, and all that lovely stuff can be complicated and often comes down to who has the bettwer lawyer in a court of law. Bottom line is that the individual addon authors would have say. If they say to Mazzle, please remove my addon, then Mazzle must comply.

Please don't get me wrong; I'm trying to remain very neutral and objective. I don't use MazzleUI since I produce my own compilation, but I give her kudos for her hard work. I think the Mazzifier (other than the mazzlegasm, but that horse has been beaten to death) is a brilliant idea and give credit for the hard work, including the custom tweaks to several of the included addons.

Unfortunately, like most things in life, this is not a simple cut & dry issue. There are several issues to consider and that's probably why Mazzle is probing the community for feedback (again, rightfully so).
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07-20-07, 01:22 PM   #39
Kaomie
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Originally Posted by Layrajha
Then those persons should clearly state IN THE FILES THEY PROVIDE that they reserve to themselves the right to distribute their work. I don't think that if you post a story on a blog, you can legally prosecute someone that sells a book that quotes your story. It's the same here. People are putting their work as free downloads on public sites, with no license in it, so...
That is exactly what I am saying. So if you confirm you went through every single files and there is nothing that resemble a mention to a distribution license then no issue, no one can claim anything like tardmrr was questioning. If there is one then the addon should be removed. It is as easy as that and works both ways, protecting both Mazzle and the authors.
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07-20-07, 01:49 PM   #40
Mazzlefizz
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Originally Posted by Gemini_II
Unfortunately, like most things in life, this is not a simple cut & dry issue. There are several issues to consider and that's probably why Mazzle is probing the community for feedback (again, rightfully so).
While I am probing for feedback about whether there would be interest, I did not want this to turn into another copyright discussion. I was simply asking if people would be interested in joining and people have turned the discussion into whether I'd be allowed to legally sell software of others, which is not what I was proposing at all.

Anyway, if I make the site, I have decided I will now almost certainly not make the add-ons of others available through it, to stem any such concerns. I'll leave it up to the users to make a package of add-ons on the normal add-on sites that will be compatible. It'll be harder for the newer, less technical users, as they'd have to make two downloads, but so be it, if that's what others authors would feel more comfortable with.
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