WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Sarrish]

If users aren't using WoW Matrix they will be using the same amount of bandwidth when they start hitting your sites, so the bandwidth argument just doesn't add up.

Open it back up for WOW Matrix until you can write something that works as good as they do.

[chris_the_elder]

I'm gonna try and stay civil here. But I really don't think the people who made this decision really understand how the internet works. I'm going to point out a few problems.

First, you realize that wowmatrix is going to work around this. "Oh, but we found a really *good* way to keep it out!!!" Tell that to the DVD-CCA, Apple, Stardock, and literally thousands of other people who "outsmarted the hackers". The hackers always find a way. They built a simple, elegant user interface, something that's really *hard* to do. You think they can't work around whatever you've put into place? You're very full of yourself if you think they can't.

Second, I'm now relegated to updating my addons by hand. So I'm going to be using *more* bandwidth than just leeching them down with wowmatrix. Right now I just grab the addons, which are generally pretty small files. Some of the web pages on your site, with graphics, comments and so on, are bigger than the addons I'd be downloading. And, since I use Firefox and Adblock Plus, you'll get no additional ad revenue, but at least I'll be using more bandwidth. Net loss there.

Why do I use AdBlock? Well, it's not really to block ads, it's to block all the stuff that comes with ads. You know, the malware that auto-installs with a zero-day exploit to put a keylogger on my system, that kind of thing.

Third, how much time did you spend on this instead of updating your addon manager that doesn't work right? You realize that most of us use WoWmatrix because it's easy, fast, and clean? Which is basically the story of the entire Internet in a nutshell. Basically Wowmatrix is napster. And you're the RIAA. Grats.

I completly understand how much it costs to run a site like this. And I appreciate what you're trying to do with this change. I just think you've gone about it completely backwards. The actions you've taken aren't going to work, they aren't going to increase ad revenue from me anyway, and really all they do is provide annoyance to me and more bandwidth costs to you.

So what's the answer? Build a tool that's light and easy but put your own ads into it, and you'll find success. Build up a program and take donations for a "premium" version for $20 a year and trade on your name, the fact that you've been around a long time and you're not going anywhere. License it, open your accounting so the mod authors don't think you're making money off their hard work (because you'll probably just break even) and have a happy community.

Down the path you're on lies only frustration and misery for you and the people who you want to use your site.

[Shirik]

Originally Posted by Sarrish If users aren't using WoW Matrix they will be using the same amount of bandwidth when they start hitting your sites, so the bandwidth argument just doesn't add up.

Wrong. WoWMatrix does it all at once, which equates to something like a DDoS attack.

Originally Posted by Sarrish Open it back up for WOW Matrix until you can write something that works as good as they do.

You obviously do not wish to read earlier posts in this topic, so I'll just quote what I said earlier in this topic. You can call it rude if you want to, but you give me no reason to act in a reasonable manner when your posts are only full of FUD.

Originally Posted by Shirik If you would like to pay me for this product, then by all means I will work harder. Until such time that I'm paid for it, though, I have other priorities, such as getting an internship and maintaining my grades in grad school. I find it very interesting to see how quickly the world owes people something that is created for free

[Equitoen]

Originally Posted by Sarrish If users aren't using WoW Matrix they will be using the same amount of bandwidth when they start hitting your sites, so the bandwidth argument just doesn't add up. Open it back up for WOW Matrix until you can write something that works as good as they do.

Except that little advertisement you see on the right side of your screen pays for WowInterface's bandwidth. When you are using WoWMatrix, WoWInterface is not being reimbursed for their bandwidth. You are leeching.

[SmellyB]

Guys, we feel your pain that Wowmatrix is a shady lot. Heck, I feel uncomfortable every time I open it - have they installed a keylogger yet? Ya know? But that doesn't change that the fact that it *IS* what your users want. We flock to it because it is GOOD. Make a good updater and we'll want to use it. Until then, thanks for alienating your users.

And NO, manual updating and one-click-per-update are not acceptable alternatives. You just cannot expect 1 ad impression per addon served.

[elseer]

Hi All,

Seeing that Wow Matrix was disabled, I loaded the most recent Curse updater. It did not recognize 2/3 of my plugins. Per it's suggestion I searched it's list of plugins and found that several items I use are not on curse -- including Carbonite (I actually bought a subscription for this), Double Wide, and Lightheaded . Given your understandable attitude twords wow matrix has Wow Interface considered offering a for pay updater that would cross the repository boundary in a fashion that maintains your interests while actuality meeting what is an obvious consumer need?

Lets be clear here -- I have no qualms about paying for such a client. For me it's worth US$20-US$30 a year. However the current for pay client -- curse and the free one WOWUI (or whatever it's called) dont meet my consumer needs and thus are not something I would buy nor particularly fancy using.

Just to be clear here - as a consumer not having an effective updater hurts mod authors that want my money. I've donated to auctioneer, paid for carbonite and donated to a few other projects. Each item I donated or paid for was found with wow matrix -- not the unpleasantly fussy wowui nor the invasive curse client.

So how about it? Have you all given a thought to offering an advert driven updater with an option to have folks pay for the updater if they dont want to view ads?

[Starfire512]

Originally Posted by Rendus You know what I like most about the Curse client? That it installs it's profiler and automatically uploads it's results. And doesn't obey the "Automatically install Curse Profiler" checkbox. Uncheck it and it continues to install itself. It's a fantastic feature, and makes me feel so confident and happy about using this thing.

While that is certainly appears to be happening, the following is more likely to be the intent of the Curse/WowI crews. Here is what the intro page to the Curse Updater states:

Please Note that the one feature that everyone loves about WoWMatrix is a Premium Feature and thus requires payment -- (Automatic updates of all your addons.)

In order to get people to pay, they had to break WoWMatrix's control of the market. And while I understand that WoWMatrix may be a burden on these other sites, the burden will not be any less when everyone is using Curse, or whatever to download zillions of updates on patch day. This appears to be a pure and simple grab for money. And maybe they deserve money for the service they provide, but that doesn't change the fact that this is about market percentage.

----------------

Welcome to the Curse Client Premium Preview!

Thank you for trying out the brand new Curse Client! We're excited to offer you access to a preview of Curse Premium features.
If you have any questions about how to use the client please check out the manual first. If you don't find what you need there feel free to ask us directly in our Curse Client Support Forum.
During the Premium Preview you'll have access to some of our coolest features:

Automatic updates of all your addons.

Ad-Free downloads.

Maximum download speed.

Remember though this is a limited preview, and will be ending as soon as the Curse Premium service launches. At this point, the client will still continue to function, though it will have slight differences in functionality. For more information about the Preview please go over to our Preview FAQ.
After the Preview expires you'll still have access to all of our standard features, and of course you'll be able to retain the Premium features by signing up for our Premium Membership
And don't forget, we're looking for feedback so please drop by our support forum and let us know what you think.

[Shirik]

Originally Posted by elseer Hi All, Seeing that Wow Matrix was disabled, I loaded the most recent Curse updater. It did not recognize 2/3 of my plugins. Per it's suggestion I searched it's list of plugins and found that several items I use are not on curse -- including Carbonite (I actually bought a subscription for this), Double Wide, and Lightheaded . Given your understandable attitude twords wow matrix has Wow Interface considered offering a for pay updater that would cross the repository boundary in a fashion that maintains your interests while actuality meeting what is an obvious consumer need? Lets be clear here -- I have no qualms about paying for such a client. For me it's worth US$20-US$30 a year. However the current for pay client -- curse and the free one WOWUI (or whatever it's called) dont meet my consumer needs and thus are not something I would buy nor particularly fancy using. Just to be clear here - as a consumer not having an effective updater hurts mod authors that want my money. I've donated to auctioneer, paid for carbonite and donated to a few other projects. Each item I donated or paid for was found with wow matrix -- not the unpleasantly fussy wowui nor the invasive curse client. So how about it? Have you all given a thought to offering an advert driven updater with an option to have folks pay for the updater if they dont want to ads?

An updater is already in the works which uses the OSGi interface to allow literally unlimited number of sites to patch into it for support.

You can find discussion on that here

[Sarrish]

Originally Posted by Shirik Wrong. WoWMatrix does it all at once, which equates to something like a DDoS attack. You obviously do not wish to read earlier posts in this topic, so I'll just quote what I said earlier in this topic. You can call it rude if you want to, but you give me no reason to act in a reasonable manner when your posts are only full of FUD.

If it's such a pain then just shut it down.

As a previous poster pointed out, it will be more bandwidth because people are going to spend much more time poking around finding one addon after another to either install or update. WoW Matrix was a fast hit and run to get/update addons.

But you don't want to hear that, you don't want to listen to the end user and judging from what I saw on your updater status, you have nothing planned for it whatsoever.

You could limit the bandwidth to WoW Matrix and still allow users to get their updates, until you could write an updater that displays your ads, because displaying ads is what it all comes down to and everything else is an excuse backed by false information.

[dexorama]

This is Bull. You are freaking jealous little babies. I use Wowmatrix and love it. I also Use the option when you right click the addon to go the Authors page and I always give thanks/check out what else the author is doing. So F U guys for breaking it. Now I am going to have to manually update everything, the whole time being more angry at you a-holes for ruining a good thing. Your updaters suck balls I tried both of them before even hearing about Wow Matrix, I deleted them both and I went back to updating everything manually because they sucked so bad. GG retards. You are the freakin' Microsoft of WoW, you can't make anything better so you cripple the best thing out there.

[chris_the_elder]

Originally Posted by SmellyB And NO, manual updating and one-click-per-update are not acceptable alternatives. You just cannot expect 1 ad impression per addon served.

Plus anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is using adblock and firefox anyway. So one click gets you...nothing. No ad impressions. But hey, at least it takes me longer, so the first competing site that has all the addons I need and a great user interface is going to get my subscription money.

[chris_the_elder]

Originally Posted by Shirik Wrong. WoWMatrix does it all at once, which equates to something like a DDoS attack.

As opposed to Mozilla in Fast mode, which looks...like a DOS attack. And it doesn't look like a DDOS, that'd require multiple hosts. It looks like a DOS attack. If you're gonna throw network security terms around, at least understand them.

You obviously do not wish to read earlier posts in this topic, so I'll just quote what I said earlier in this topic. You can call it rude if you want to, but you give me no reason to act in a reasonable manner when your posts are only full of FUD.

Nicely done on the notice for this change right before a major patch. Did you wait until right after the official notice of the patch came out to post this? It's obviously been in the works a long time. I'm glad you felt the need to inconvenience the tens of thousands of people who use wowmatrix the day before a patch instead of giving them time to try your "solutions" instead.

Y'all ever think about a licensing deal with wowmatrix? Obviously they've got the user interface thing figured out. Or you can just go to war with 'em. Your call I guess.

[kalidav]

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder As opposed to Mozilla in Fast mode, which looks...like a DOS attack. And it doesn't look like a DDOS, that'd require multiple hosts. It looks like a DOS attack. If you're gonna throw network security terms around, at least understand them.

Actually a DDoS is exactly what it is. You have 40 addons, assuming half are located here then that's 20 connections instantly from one person. Now I assume you realise that there's a lot more than just one person using wowmatrix.

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder Nicely done on the notice for this change right before a major patch. Did you wait until right after the official notice of the patch came out to post this? It's obviously been in the works a long time. I'm glad you felt the need to inconvenience the tens of thousands of people who use wowmatrix the day before a patch instead of giving them time to try your "solutions" instead. Y'all ever think about a licensing deal with wowmatrix? Obviously they've got the user interface thing figured out. Or you can just go to war with 'em. Your call I guess.

Timing obviously wasn't a coincidence - people are going to be running around madly trying to update their addons by hand again, though. And licensing deal? I hope you're joking, the application is questionable as it is. It's just a matter of the next application to meet the same level of simplicity, without the added junk.


I'm starting to think that a better way of doing this is having a 3rd party site that scrapes the sites twice per day and maintains a version list which is provided in a compressed form to manage bandwidth.

[Torrid01]

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder First, you realize that wowmatrix is going to work around this.

Not before the vast majority of users update their addons manually or with the official site updaters this patch cycle.

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder Second, I'm now relegated to updating my addons by hand.

Here is my shoulder. You may cry on it.

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder And, since I use Firefox and Adblock Plus, you'll get no additional ad revenue, but at least I'll be using more bandwidth. Net loss there.

I use ABP as well. Guess what? We're the minority. It doesn't block my donation link, either.

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder Third, how much time did you spend on this instead of updating your addon manager that doesn't work right? You realize that most of us use WoWmatrix because it's easy, fast, and clean? Which is basically the story of the entire Internet in a nutshell. Basically Wowmatrix is napster. And you're the RIAA. Grats.

I wasn't aware they were obligated to write the applications you demand, for free. Apparently the world owes you free music as well, because you cry like a spoiled child when your illegal activity is shut down. Comparing WoWI and Curse to the RIAA is laughable and shows your ignorance. I suggest a visit to wikipedia.

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder I completly understand how much it costs to run a site like this.

You've already made it abundantly clear that you do not, in fact, have a f'ing clue. Without ad revenue, this site eventually goes down, and then WM would break. So either way, WM breaks.

I think I get more satisfaction from the whining of users like you than I do knowing WM's authors are getting what they deserve.

[Shirik]

[quote=chris_the_elder;126166]As opposed to Mozilla in Fast mode, which looks...like a DOS attack. And it doesn't look like a DDOS, that'd require multiple hosts. It looks like a DOS attack. If you're gonna throw network security terms around, at least understand
It is a DDoS when you consider the number of users of the software flooding the site at once.

[Dweessies]

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder Plus anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is using adblock and firefox anyway. So one click gets you...nothing. No ad impressions. But hey, at least it takes me longer, so the first competing site that has all the addons I need and a great user interface is going to get my subscription money.

I couldn't agree more. The Curse updater looks like a poor imitation of Wowmatrix, with less usability and fewer addons available. The other thing you've put out is still broken and just plain doesn't work. It decided that none of the addons I use, things like DBM, Bartender4, and Pitbull were available and wanted a UID for each and every one before it would attempt anything.

Using patch day for your little temper fit tantrum is not making you any friends. Your arguments regarding bandwidth usage don't hold water and make this look like just another attempt to force people to give you money you haven't earned. You'd have done a lot better to co-opt the Wowmatrix developers into building your updater for you, since theirs actually works.

[Scalebane]

Originally Posted by chris_the_elder As opposed to Mozilla in Fast mode, which looks...like a DOS attack. And it doesn't look like a DDOS, that'd require multiple hosts. It looks like a DOS attack. If you're gonna throw network security terms around, at least understand them. Nicely done on the notice for this change right before a major patch. Did you wait until right after the official notice of the patch came out to post this? It's obviously been in the works a long time. I'm glad you felt the need to inconvenience the tens of thousands of people who use wowmatrix the day before a patch instead of giving them time to try your "solutions" instead. Y'all ever think about a licensing deal with wowmatrix? Obviously they've got the user interface thing figured out. Or you can just go to war with 'em. Your call I guess.

You know Curse and Wowi have been trying to talk with them for god knows how long, not to mention authors who didn't want their mods on WM...the WM guys are at fault here for not working things out, instead it seems they mostly ignored everything until they finally added a few things people were complaining about, too little too late.

You wanna ***** at someone send the WM folks a complaint for being morons, i would say go to their forums but they don't provide you WM users with one.

[chris_the_elder]

Originally Posted by kalidav Actually a DDoS is exactly what it is. You have 40 addons, assuming half are located here then that's 20 connections instantly from one person. Now I assume you realise that there's a lot more than just one person using wowmatrix.

Yup, lot more than one person using Firefox too. And they eat a lot more bandwidth, some of the web pages on these sites are bigger than the addons I'm downloading. This isn't about bandwidth or server activity, and pretending it is would be lying. It's about ad impressions.

Timing obviously wasn't a coincidence - people are going to be running around madly trying to update their addons by hand again, though. And licensing deal? I hope you're joking, the application is questionable as it is. It's just a matter of the next application to meet the same level of simplicity, without the added junk.

The application is simple, clean and works. As opposed to all the other addon updaters out there which are convoluted, kludgy, and generally non-functional. I'm not sure what's questionable about it from a technical perspective. The questionable nature revolves around licensing, which is what I suggested considering. What exactly is the joke there? Have you *used* wowmatrix? It's great. It's fast, easy, and it works. It doesn't UPDATER.EXE. It has no background processes, I fire it up, click a button, and start WOW. I think it's a legit question.

[genom]

Maybe a good thing for WI/Curse, but a horrible, horrible day for end-users.

Addons have become prevalent and numerous enough to be difficult to manage individually. When you're running 90+ different addons, individually visiting each and every download page / website becomes an hours-long ordeal.

Remembering which versions of which addons come from which sites, which may or may not be updated at all, may have different versions available on different sites, etc...

Then came WoWAce. A very large number of quality addons, with easily-accessible links on a single page (files.wowace). For folks running a large number of Ace-based addons, this helped a lot. Everything was still manual, but at least all the links were in one quickly-accessible place. Well, that's gone now, eaten by Curse (over bandwidth concerns, IIRC).

Updaters like WAU and later WoWMatrix *fixed* this, from a user's perspective. Something that took hours before, now took only a couple of minutes. It was fast, easy, and (mostly) intuitive.

On the back-end, things weren't so good for authors/compilation sites. Between WM's inefficient update methods eating bandwidth, advertisement woes, etc... these sorts of sites were feeling a bit stiffed by what WM was doing. And that's perfectly reasonable and understandable.

However, instead of both sides working together - sites creating a bandwidth-efficient method for notifying WM of updates, WM using those methods, and perhaps adding a column to their listing to provide links back to the author's sites for donations, etc... - they're at odds with each other, leaving *users* in the lurch.

I'm not assigning blame to either side here. Whether WM was unresponsive or uncooperative, or whether there were other problems with communications - that doesn't matter to users. What matters is that the two sides have failed to come to terms, and are actively hostile to one another, with little to no regard for their target audience (who ironically is the same for both).

Oh, but the sites say "we have our own updaters, use those!" - updaters which are inferior to WM (in numerous ways, particularly on the Mac), buggy, intrusive (*cough* Curse) or even non-existent. Not a viable option.

Who are the authors writing addons for? Users.

Who is WM supposedly serving? Users.

Who is screwed most by this? Users.

IMHO: Epic. Fail.

[chris_the_elder]

Originally Posted by Scalebane You wanna ***** at someone send the WM folks a complaint for being morons, i would say go to their forums but they don't provide you WM users with one.

They don't need forums, their stuff works.

And morons? Dunno, they have a working user interface that does what I need it to and nothing more. Not sure what's moronic about that.