WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users - Page 63

Petrah · 05-09-09, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Instead, Curse, who knew they had a working client and a couple weeks from the launch of their premium service, pressured WoWI into following them in this, made it near impossible for them not to.

Pressured? I don't think so. By insinuating that it was a pressured decision you are essentially saying that Cairenn is weak and cannot make an informed decision based on the needs of the people and what is best for this site as a whole. You really need to think before you post.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55

But neither side is absolved of wrong doing in the content/tone of their posts.

But one side has the benefit of not being subject to hidden and deceptive censorship, a practice that they feel is justified in being used, and won't even discuss changing.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

Pressured? I don't think so. By insinuating that it was a pressured decision you are essentially saying that Cairenn is weak and cannot make an informed decision based on the needs of the people and what is best for this site as a whole. You really need to think before you post.

She and the other admins had no choice. By their own words, had Curse done it without them, they would have born the entirety of the brunt of the WowMatrix userbase. Sharing that brunt, sure both sides could have made it, as they have in the past, even if just barely. By Curse insisting on the time frame, and without offering to wait for WoWI to also have a working client, they gained the upper hand.

And just so no one tries to allege I am changing my argument here, I've never said that WoWI and Curse should not have blocked WM. I have always said it was about the way it was handled, and about how WoWI could have done it better.

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Had they done that, and had WoWMatrix taken them up on it (which by their own words would have been highly likely), they would have a huge leg up on Curse right now.

I find it hard to believe that post in their FAQ since it is my belief they had ample time to reply to other overtures. Stating so after the fact is a case of too little to late. But again this is solely based on the word of the people involved which is why i state it as my belief and not a matter of fact.

If you are to take what the admins here say at face value then one would be inclined to believe that they were done trying to work with them (on multiple occasions) while being ignored and felt this was their only other option. Did curse force a decision? It would seem so in my estimation. That does not necessarily make this site at fault. When faced with 2 distasteful options they chose to make the one they felt was best for everyone. Curse didnt force this site to dislike the way WM did business (and dont mistake for anything other than a business) WM did that all on their own.

Petrah · 05-09-09, 03:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

She and the other admins had no choice. By their own words, had Curse done it without them, they would have born the entirety of the brunt of the WowMatrix userbase. Sharing that brunt, sure both sides could have made it, as they have in the past, even if just barely. By Curse insisting on the time frame, and without offering to wait for WoWI to also have a working client, they gained the upper hand.

I can assure you it was not a pressured decision in the sense you think it was. Cairenn made the decisions that she did based on the needs of the people and the overall well being of this site as a whole. She doesn't strike me as being the type to buckle under pressure. Otherwise she wouldn't be the administrator of one of the largest addon sites on the net, and the maintainer of an official gaming fan web site.

While I may have disagreements on both sides, and agreements on both sides, I will continue to support Cairenn and the other admins/mods in whatever decisions they make. It's not an easy job and for those reasons, they have my respect. Something you obviously lack.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55

If you are to take what the admins here say at face value then one would be inclined to believe that they were done trying to work with them (on multiple occasions) while being ignored and felt this was their only other option.

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone forward with the block. They had no choice. They had to.

But just like we see in international relations, often you will find that an opposing side is more willing to negotiate and act after they had felt the impact of the hammer. And it was that type of overture, POST BLOCK, that I had suggested, and which would have let the air out of the sails of Curse and put WoWI in the more dominant position.

No one can really dispute that Curse gained that position the way it was all handled.

Vyper · 05-09-09, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

And you are both wrong. The method WoWMatrix used was a text only pull, using Curl.

But don't let pesky things like facts get in your way, they don't seem to matter much around here.

I'm well aware they used Curl libraries. That doesn't stop them from pulling twice.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

I can assure you it was not a pressured decision in the sense you think it was. Cairenn made the decisions that she did based on the needs of the people and the overall well being of this site as a whole. She doesn't strike me as being the type to buckle under pressure. Otherwise she wouldn't be the administrator of one of the largest addon sites on the net, and the maintainer of an official gaming fan web site.

Look, you don't have to believe me, to see that what I said was right. Cairenn herself already said that they had no choice but to do it at the same time Curse did, or it would have overburdened WoWI into being nearly shut down.

Her own words, facts.

Tuhljin · 05-09-09, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

But let me get this straight. Just because someone is an addon author, and user of this site, they somehow should just get on the bandwagon and blindly follow the WoWI party line, and not be critical of them when the author feels the site is acting in a wrong, and inappropriate manner?

No, but when faced with two sides, one which has been good to us and the other which has repeatedly violated our sense of ethics, it's not hard to guess which one we'll lean toward. Even if we were to criticize WoWI, we wouldn't do it the way you have. You have been quite insulting to those who disagree with you and have stated your opinion as fact all too often.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by Vyper

I'm well aware they used Curl libraries. That doesn't stop them from pulling twice.

But they were pulling only text, not graphics. I Did a sample, and a pull of the same text only of an addon page is not a significant amount of data, and no where near the megabytes you two were claiming.

But, had they worked together, the two could easily have come up with API calls to a separate script, so that a call such as:
http://wowmatrix.wowinterface.com/api?modid=XXXXXX would output:
CURVER=X.xxxx
DLLINK=hxxp://xxxxx

And they could have even made it lighter, by having WoWMatrix download a master list every, say 4 hours, and serve the version checks themselves.

All the kinds of things that I suggested be included in a call for cooperation. Prominent ad and promotion space could have been worked out. All things that, especially after having gotten the brunt of the hammer, would have probably been considered most acceptable.

WoWI would have been known to the vast userbase of WM as the site that saved WM, and imagin the extra publicity that would have gotten them....

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Look, you don't have to believe me, to see that what I said was right. Cairenn herself already said that they had no choice but to do it at the same time Curse did, or it would have overburdened WoWI into being nearly shut down.

Her own words, facts.

Very much so. This is not disputed. Though i think one additional assumption is being made.

But just like we see in international relations, often you will find that an opposing side is more willing to negotiate and act after they had felt the impact of the hammer. And it was that type of overture, POST BLOCK, that I had suggested, and which would have let the air out of the sails of Curse and put WoWI in the more dominant position.

The assumption that WoWI is trying to be in a dominant position. Call me an old fashioned type of guy but i was never under the impression that it was the sites intent to be dominant but to provide services they deemed vital to a community they have a love for. Now i wont deny that personally id like to see the site as the number one site by what ever statistics track these things and in essence truly be the dominant site. Though to me its the one site i visit regularly. Help posters with issues and try to be part of the community as a whole in my own way. So to me it in essence IS the #1 site. Sure i get, i think its one or 2 addons from curse and even leave feedback as needed. But its the way this site is run that keeps me coming back.

As for offering after the hammer was down to see if it got their attention, while i feel it would have been a good time to try again i have to go off the feeling that the admins were just tired of it all and had no desire left to try. you can only get slapped in the face so many times before you finally walk away.

Petrah · 05-09-09, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Look, you don't have to believe me, to see that what I said was right. Cairenn herself already said that they had no choice but to do it at the same time Curse did, or it would have overburdened WoWI into being nearly shut down.

Her own words, facts.

You're not listening to what I'm saying. You're making Kaelton out to be some kind of bully. Kaelton and Cairenn both wanted the same thing for all of us and both sites. Neither you or anyone else here was privy to their private conversations, and until you are and can state things as fact, you need to stop posting such nonsense.

So what if WoWI's updater wasn't ready. That fact does not mean that no one had access to the addons here on patch day, and to think otherwise is simply foolish.

You're forgetting that this site would have been down due to too many hits on patch day if she hadn't made the decision that she did, and just because Curse blocked them makes no difference. Even if Curse had not blocked them on patch day, no one would of been able to get to WoWI. It would of been just like the last patch day, and the one before it, and the one before that.

Kaelten · 05-09-09, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone forward with the block. They had no choice. They had to.

But just like we see in international relations, often you will find that an opposing side is more willing to negotiate and act after they had felt the impact of the hammer. And it was that type of overture, POST BLOCK, that I had suggested, and which would have let the air out of the sails of Curse and put WoWI in the more dominant position.

No one can really dispute that Curse gained that position the way it was all handled.

We did try to talk to them again after the block. They've ignored our communication attempts.

I'm very tired of you sitting here and calling me at best a liar. I have presented nothing but facts.

***Cairenn*** · 05-09-09, 03:50 PM

Jalandar,

Maybe we could have handled the post better. We felt, though, that it would be better to make a joint statement. Maybe we would have been better to make our own. Hindsight is 20/20.

But then again ... if we had done our own, people would have accused us of mud-slinging against Curse, laying all the "blame" at their feet. Back to the whole "damned if you do, damned if you don't" problem.

We tried to handle it the best way we thought. There was a LOT of time spent on trying to make the initial post be as professional and even-handed as possible. (You don't even want to know what the initial draft that was suggested to me looked like.

)

No matter what we did, how we handled it, there was (as is evidenced) absolutely no way we could do anything that wouldn't have one person/group or another pissed off at us.

As for going back to try to initiate another conversation with WowMatrix after all this happened? On what basis do you think we would have had any reasonable expectation that they would respond? And even if they had been willing to finally talk to us ... why should we overlook all the past transgressions? The complete disdain with which they have treated the entire community? How would people react if we had done that? How many people would then be calling us hypocrits and sellouts? How many authors would be happy with us basically saying that "oh well, it doesn't matter how they treated you in the past, how they've violated your copyright, etc etc etc ... none of that matters, we're partnering up with them now, deal with it"? /repeats herself: "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Regarding putting you in Coventry (silencing you) - If I had deleted your posts outright, I would have been accused of censorship. If I had banned you (temporarily or permanently), I would have been accused of stifling anyone that doesn't agree with us. And if I had banned you, people would have still been able to respond to your previous posts without you being able to refute anything they said. Instead, I chose to put you in Coventry. That is a temporary measure. It allowed you to still post, but kept others from reading your posts until after everyone had a chance to calm down some. Your posts still existed (unlike if I just deleted them outright); you were still able to come to the site and be able to write what you wanted without getting flamed for it, able to download mods, etc (unlike if I banned you). And your posts were all still there when you were taken out of Coventry, which was going to be happening the next day anyway. To me, it was the choice that had the least long term impact and would least upset you and everyone else. It would seem I was wrong. I apologize.

"Damned if you do, damned if you don't"

Yhor · 05-09-09, 03:54 PM

What I really don't get, is why should anyone negotiate with WM now... after all the damage they've done (real or imaginary)? There is no means of public communication on their end (anything done privately is grounds for all to be liars and idiots, which could end the frakkin world), they will not discuss anything publicly (since the WoWAce forums?), and why should they, now, do so (they've already shown their intent and their purpose, through actions. Those actions have brought negative consequences that they don't want to face).

So why? Why try to negotiate after the fact, when no one gains anything from it except WowMatrix?

Edit: dammit Cairenn beat me to my question.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Yhor

So why? Why try to negotiate after the fact, when no one gains anything from it except WowMatrix?

WoWI would have gained a lot from it, as I already pointed out. Instead, they got the short end of the stick, and Curse got all the free coverage and promotion.

Originally Posted by Silenia

You're not listening to what I'm saying. You're making Kaelton out to be some kind of bully.

I'm refraining from the comment I want to make, out of respect for the site admin's request to refrain from personal comments.

Originally Posted by Silenia

You're forgetting that this site would have been down due to too many hits on patch day if she hadn't made the decision that she did

I'm not forgetting that at all. I've agreed with this statement numerous times.

Of course, I lay a share of the blame for that being the case at their feet as well. Had they developed an API for making those queries, and offered them to WM, I can't imagine for a moment that WM wouldn't have worked with them on it. It would have made things so much easier for WM, that it wouldn't have made any business sense at all for them NOT to step up and find a way to work with them on it.

That's why I do believe WM's statement of events for the most part. Frankly it just makes sense, and is vastly more believable than the emotive version of events Kael wrote out. And from what Cairenn just said, about the first version of that statement, I can only imagine how much more over the top his first submission must have been.

Kael needed WoWI to go along with him, he needed their acquiescence. His plan wouldn't have worked unless he got them to go along with him.

Yhor · 05-09-09, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

WoWI would have gained a lot from it, as I already pointed out. Instead, they got the short end of the stick, and Curse got all the free coverage and promotion.

Am I missing something here? Where did you point this out? Just saying it is so, does not make it so.

Scalebane · 05-09-09, 08:13 PM

You know Jalandar, they crying is old already. Some of us around here have followed this for over a year, WM had their chances they screwed up period.

You think we are just drinking the kool-aid so to speak by going with the info that Curse and Wowi are telling us?? no we been here we know because we followed the discussions, where were you?

So tell us all why we should give a damn about WM now after the fact, why should i care that they are trying to do some right things now? why should i care to support Wm when they can't even provide a forum for people to discuss these issues with them? why should i trust people who can't even come out and discuss things with addons users, especially those that support them? they barely answer their emails for crying out loud.

All their behavior does is reinforce the fact that they are liars, and cowards.

They don't have the spine to come out and discuss anything at all, unlike Cai and Kael have day in and day out. I have much respect for These 2 sites.

Then we get WM just dropping out a lil msg and expect people to take their word? **** that ****, if they want respect, if they want people to hear them out, then they can stop being goddamn cowards and come out of hiding.

Until then, what they have to say is nothing but lies.

/rant off...if you need to ban me for my post i understand..just tired of these constant attacks on you all...bye.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Scalebane

Some of us around here have followed this for over a year, WM had their chances they screwed up period.
...
You think we are just drinking the kool-aid so to speak by going with the info that Curse and Wowi are telling us?? no we been here we know because we followed the discussions, where were you?

I normally wouldn't point this out, but you will pardon me for finding your post to be nothing more than just thumping fanboism when I look and see that all but 2 posts made in the forums by you have been done since this thread started.

As I said, I wouldn't normally point that out as a reason to discount someone's presentation of their view, but you yourself made WM's lack of participation an issue, and claimed you yourself had a history of participation on the subject, something that is clearly a falsehood.

Scalebane · 05-09-09, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

I normally wouldn't point this out, but you will pardon me for finding your post to be nothing more than just thumping fanboism when I look and see that all but 2 posts made in the forums by you have been done since this thread started.

As I said, I wouldn't normally point that out as a reason to discount someone's presentation of their view, but you yourself made WM's lack of participation an issue, and claimed you yourself had a history of participation on the subject, something that is clearly a falsehood.

I didn't participate in it, i followed the discussions, i've been around here a long time, mostly lurking.

you'll pardon me for thinking you must work for WM with your constant attacks.

But please avoid giving us reasons why we should trust them, since they have been so active in these discussions right?

As for how much i have posted, i just haven't felt the need too, until now, just like yourself right? those big 51 posts show how active you have been right? still trying to figure out where in my posts i said i was actually participating in those discussions.