Panel Mod Disgust

[Wowgamer233]

I'm not looking to overly complicate a discussion that has been so very very well addressed by the above posters but an aspect of mod usage that I don't think anyone mentioned is when someone else, other than the mod author, posts a mod to a site, other than it's author's desired home.

I'm sure we have all seen the "I am not the author of this mod. I'm just posting it here for everyone.". That can be a pain for people who consume that mod and do not realize that the posting will probably never get updated again and so will drift out of date and possibly become problematic. The poor user who downloaded it is oblivious to the author's desire to keep it on one or more specific sites for support and update purposes. Personally I never ever dig myself into that hole and always go to the source. Auctioneer is one such example.

Apart from my comments here I too can see no reasons for the semi-rant of "Work for me for nothing and do my bidding" of the OP.

[Gemini_II]

Originally Posted by Republic 1) Stop the extra work. 2) Maintain an official portal site. 3) Keep your portal updated. 4) Relax and fix problems as time allows. Easy enough, isn't it?

1) Then someone else would need to pickup the project, and we (angry players) all go without in the meantime. 2) Are you willing to pay for a site for me? 3) See #2 4) See #1
I chose to use WoWI as my projects main site. I chose use Curse as a mirror (less so since I'm disappointed with most of their changes). Still takes me 20 minutes+ to update both sites.

Originally Posted by Republic It's plastered all over the top downloads, etc. and is clearly visible right on the front page as a "source" for Fubar. Now, if I were CK, which thankfully I'm not, I'd probably want to keep my own PORTAL updated.

FuBar is in top downloads because it's been downloaded tens of thousands of times. This site does not claim to be the source for FuBar. CKK has a life outside of the game and I hear that he has MIA for a bit. Gotta give the guy a break. If you had an emergency in your personal life, wouldn't it be more important that typing on a webpage?

Titan has been a pretty dead/dying project for awhile. As you mentioned in an early post about a group continuing it, that's exactly what happened with Titan. Some folks were keeping things working with it, but I don't even know if they are still around. FuBar on the other hand it pretty well maintained. Wild shot in the dark that all your problems started when CKK switched to using Rock. It didn't break anything, just changed it.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just playing devil's advocate. You make some good points. It is frustrating sometimes. Like Wowgamer mentioned, sometimes it's not even th authors who are redistributing addons. But the simple truth is that noone gets paid for programming these addons, therefore we aren't owed anything.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Wowgamer233 "I am not the author of this mod. I'm just posting it here for everyone.".

You'll notice that you don't see that here? We don't allow people to upload work that isn't their own.

Originally Posted by ReverendD Does this thread need to be closed? Cause I don't see it going anywhere constructive.

Given that it's such a flamable thread, you can be sure that I'm keeping a very close eye on it. It gets out of hand, it gets closed. So far it's stayed within the limits of acceptable, although it's pushed at the line a few times.

[Rigorous]

Originally Posted by Republic It is relevant because I make it so!

i sincerely hope this was a failed effort to be humorous.

Originally Posted by Republic I don't think it's expecting too much for an author's "portal site" to be updated. Is it? I mean, that's more like a "base of operations".

now, i don't know because i'm not an author (nor do i desire to be), but i'd wager that these "portals" are setup by WoWI automatically when someone uploads a mod. just because it exists doesn't necessarily mean the author has to use it or has some responsibility to it, imo. i'd guess (though i could likely find out with only a few minutes of searching) that his "base of operations" is at google code (where, from what i read, a number of mod authors are), but one look at his portal here and its clear that its not being used (currently, if ever).

Originally Posted by Republic Assuming updates fix the problem, this is a perfect solution.

then i obviously completely misunderstood you. when you said "i use WAU daily" i assumed that to mean "i update all of my mods that are available through WAU daily" which would indeed mean that your version of FuBar was updated two weeks ago. apparently you meant something else since your version of FuBar was not the one currently available through WAU.

Originally Posted by Republic And thusly, the cryptic process of updating/tinkering begins <snip> While this is not specific to panel mods, you can certainly follow my point here.

i do follow you. that is potentially how it begins (for me it began out of personal interest). and in that case, i would say its the guild's fault for not doing a little more hand-holding for people that may have problems. nevertheless, the newbie going to look for those mods now has a responsibility of his own to learn about what he's getting into. those things are not the authors' responsibility.

Originally Posted by Republic When that happens, <snip> they should not happen upon an outdated mod that they cannot get running properly because they "don't know" it's outdated to begin with.

this site has been, imo, excellent about maintaining an exceptional level of "user-friendliness" and making it clear which mods are functional and current and which are not. that is a daunting task. but this again is not the author's responsibility. i would, however, agree that if it's not "maintained" that it should perhaps be taken down (assuming that the most recent version posted is not functioning), but would that solve this problem or only serve to make it worse?

Originally Posted by Republic In any event, there's still a major problem with the two main panel mods not being able to keep current with the game version. Period.

i can't speak for Titan as i stopped paying attention to it a long, long time ago (remember when FuBar was called Boss Panel and Cairenn suggested "FuBar" and plugins called "ClockFu" back when ckk wanted to change the name? thats how long ago it was) but FuBar doesn't seem to have any problems keeping current with the game version. just because you seem to have a problem with it, doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone. i have three FuBars on my screen and they cause me no trouble whatsoever.

your real point seems to be "if you build it...and they come...then you gotta do even more" and i just don't think that's true. again, authors write addons as a hobby and those of us who are users have a responsibility to appreciate that fact instead of complaining with righteous indignation about how we aren't being spoon-fed updates and newer and better mods.

edit: finished a sentence in my mind but not on my keyboard.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Rigorous i sincerely hope this was a failed effort to be humorous.

That it was.

Originally Posted by Rigorous now, i don't know because i'm not an author (nor do i desire to be), but i'd wager that these "portals" are setup by WoWI automatically when someone uploads a mod. just because it exists doesn't necessarily mean the author has to use it or has some responsibility to it, imo. i'd guess (though i could likely find out with only a few minutes of searching) that his "base of operations" is at google code (where, from what i read, a number of mod authors are), but one look at his portal here and its clear that its not being used (currently, if ever).

Indeed a problem. Fact is, I've reported to a few authors who operate here when I've found very obvious "unauthorized-looking" uploads to other sites. I think project integrity is important, and in a small way, I've tried to help in this capacity.

Originally Posted by Rigorous i do follow you. that is potentially how it begins (for me it began out of personal interest). and in that case, i would say its the guild's fault for not doing a little more hand-holding for people that may have problems. nevertheless, the newbie going to look for those mods now has a responsibility of his own to learn about what he's getting into. those things are not the authors' responsibility.

This is true. However, if you consider the fact that the presence of a "portal" also can look like a "base of operations" to some of us, you can also see how this appearance can lead to frustration following my point(s) here. I don't see how why it's so difficult to maintain "one official support site" among hundreds, or thousands of download sites. This would solve the "overworked" issue others have mentioned here. At least, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Rigorous this site has been, imo, excellent about maintaining an exceptional level of "user-friendliness" and making it clear which mods are functional and current and which are not. that is a daunting task. but this again is not the author's responsibility. i would, however, agree that if it's not "maintained" that it should perhaps be taken down (assuming that the most recent version posted is not functioning), but would that solve this problem or only serve to make it worse?

Once again, I'd like to point out this is the best mod site on the net. I know that isn't without extreme effort by a few key individuals. I have no other real comment to make here other than this place is excellent. I always come here first, Curse second, and gaaah - IncGamers third (armed with my AV scanner) when I look for updated mods.

Originally Posted by Rigorous just because you seem to have a problem with it, doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone. i have three FuBars on my screen and they cause me no trouble whatsoever.

You are among the lucky. What revision numbers are you running? Do you have any of the overlapping/bouncing frame/jittery casting bar issues found on the Fubar bug reporting site found on its bug reporting (Jira site)? There are quite a few people having these issues. I would like to know the personal sorcery you have applied in order to avoid the issues.

Originally Posted by Rigorous your real point seems to be "if you build it...and they come...then you gotta do even more" and i just don't think that's true. again, authors write addons as a hobby and those of us who are users have a responsibility to appreciate that fact instead of complaining with righteous indignation about how we aren't being spoon-fed updates and newer and better mods.

Bah, that isn't really my point. My point is simply I am surprised and sometimes disgusted that the two major panel mods sometimes fall (far) behind in updating to game version(s). That's all. The way I see it, if I were a developer and my mod achieved such a level of success, I would feel a greater responsbility to the community to keep my "stuff" together and keep it updated within my own personal time limitations/constraints. While these guys do great work, and I'm sure do the best they can, there are perhaps ways of increasing efficiency and making it easier on the community to continue enjoying these pieces of work. If you have issues that prevent being able to maintain updated projects, that's all fine and dandy. No one here (myself especially) is suggesting anyone needs to take on "more" personal work. I'm actually trying to simplify the process and make sense out of why things like this happen.

The bottom line is these are "major" mods. I very much appreciate the work put into developing them, and applaud the respective author's brilliance. I am not a programmer myself and can't really imagine how difficult it must be keeping up with Blizzard's rather careless practices of updating its own product(s). However, I do employ programmers from time to time and know a little about managing projects. I'm honestly trying to be constructive here, not destructive. I am not being self-righteous, nor unappreciative. I want to help address problems, or at least as I see them. Okay, maybe I just wanted to discuss the problems here as I have tremendous respect for this community and its contributors. Come on guys, most of you who read this site have to agree with some of my points.

What are some solutions? Or is this really just "the way it is and must be"? I love mods. I love mod sites. I consider each of you my close, personal friend Don't hate the player, hate the game? Okay, just kidding. Don't take my words too seriously. I'm not really griping without trying to offer something constructive. In any event, please don't be offended that I'm rather awkward in making my points.

Rather than attacking me or my style of communication, how can these problems be solved? I think we're all on the same side here.

[Taffu]

Originally Posted by Republic My point is simply I am surprised and sometimes disgusted that the two major panel mods sometimes fall (far) behind in updating to game version(s). That's all. The way I see it, if I were a developer and my mod achieved such a level of success, I would feel a greater responsbility to the community to keep my "stuff" together and keep it updated within my own personal time limitations/constraints.

I think a lot of us understand where you're coming from with this feeling. It's a fairly common thought when dealing with peoples publicly released personal AddOn projects. With FuBar, considering it's nature (and the vast amount of plugins developed by other AddOn authors), fate is tempted in the 100 plugins that "might" break when CKK updates it. As well, other authors on WoWAce can patch it if needed if they're familiar with how to use the SVN over there, so I'm sure it gets a lot of attention.

Don't forget the other projects that CKK probably has eating away at his time. He's a major (if not primary) contributor in the building of the Rock library, has brought us Parrot, Pitbull, Cartographer, CowTip, and many others aside from FuBar. If you feel CKK needs a lesson in efficiency...be my guest to be the first to try to offer it up. Maybe in the meantime...try a few different things with FuBar...see if you can find a earlier revision that was functioning before an update caused a problem with your current setup. Good luck

Or, you could always download SLTimex, SLStats, and SLCommunity and hide all the other FuBar plugins! *wink* hehe

[Kaomie]

There sure is a lot to say for just the fact that official releases are sometimes published a bit behind the development revisions, which is confusing and does require to dig around. Well again that is the way it is, welcome to contribution based communities.

However,

Originally Posted by Taffu If you feel CKK needs a lesson in efficiency...be my guest to be the first to try to offer it up.

I did smile at that one

PS: all this reminds me of the way Debian works: either you run the stable branch, which is easy and supported but you often lack the latest software or upgraded versions, or you run the testing/unstable branch which can be tricky and may break occasionally, but you get the latest and the greatest software available. Depending on how much you really want to invest into understanding the whole thing you have to make a choice at some point.

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by Kaomie PS: all this reminds me of the way Debian works: either you run the stable branch, which is easy and supported but you often lack the latest software or upgraded versions, or you run the testing/unstable branch which can be tricky and may break occasionally, but you get the latest and the greatest software available. Depending on how much you really want to invest into understanding the whole thing you have to make a choice at some point.

I guess I must be using the "Unstable" branch of WoW AddOns since most of my mods are from various Gcode SVNs or the Branches of the WoWAce SVN. Then again I guess I am a sucker for being used as a lab rat having beta tested various large open source projects (Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox among others), and also Windows XP back in the day, not to mention testing my own code/hacks/tweaks (/shudder) .

To the OP, if you really want to see updates to FuBar, this site is not the place to request this as the author (Ckk) does not frequent this site. Instead you want to use the WoWAce site (to be more specific, the Jira site http://jira.wowace.com). However before you even think of posting on WoWAce or Jira read this site first: How To Ask Questions the Smart Way. Although the site I just linked to is more directed to toward those posting on various Linux/Windows open source newsgroups/web forums, the points raised are valid with dealing with WoWAce (or even WoWI). If you follow the advice given you will more likely get an answer to your questions/concerns and you may even contribute to the process of updating by offering feedback in a form that the developer will actually read as opposed to simply discarding it due to being just another poorly worded/thought out rant that gets received in their hundreds.

I know what its like to keep AddOns updated across several sites and trust me, its a royal pain in the rear. Thus I am one of those authors who has moved to releasing to just one site. Remember, this is a hobby for us, not a job. Once it starts looking like a unpaid job, then that is our clue to find something else to occupy our time.

[Kaomie]

Funny coincidence if you check the thread someone just opened next door called "cartographer problems". The version here is r30225. To most of us it seems obvious that this is old (wowaced addons are running into the r56000+ recently) and we just go and check WowAce to get something newer, but for someone who just discovers addons it may not seem so straightforward, even with the various links on the page.

An idea: maybe WowInt could automatically mark uploads that have not been updated for a while (let's say a month or two) with a warning flag as "old" and explaining newer versions may be available (without moving them to outdated which is a totally different story). No?

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Xinh I guess I must be using the "Unstable" branch of WoW AddOns since most of my mods are from various Gcode SVNs or the Branches of the WoWAce SVN. Then again I guess I am a sucker for being used as a lab rat having beta tested various large open source projects (Phoenix/Firebird/Firefox among others), and also Windows XP back in the day, not to mention testing my own code/hacks/tweaks (/shudder) . To the OP, if you really want to see updates to FuBar, this site is not the place to request this as the author (Ckk) does not frequent this site. Instead you want to use the WoWAce site (to be more specific, the Jira site http://jira.wowace.com). However before you even think of posting on WoWAce or Jira read this site first: How To Ask Questions the Smart Way. Although the site I just linked to is more directed to toward those posting on various Linux/Windows open source newsgroups/web forums, the points raised are valid with dealing with WoWAce (or even WoWI). If you follow the advice given you will more likely get an answer to your questions/concerns and you may even contribute to the process of updating by offering feedback in a form that the developer will actually read as opposed to simply discarding it due to being just another poorly worded/thought out rant that gets received in their hundreds. I know what its like to keep AddOns updated across several sites and trust me, its a royal pain in the rear. Thus I am one of those authors who has moved to releasing to just one site. Remember, this is a hobby for us, not a job. Once it starts looking like a unpaid job, then that is our clue to find something else to occupy our time.

I'd like to see fixes, not updates. If updates fix the issues, great. If they are updates for the sake of updates (simple toc updates), then no thanks. For the record, I have used Jira and currently have an open ticket for the specific technical issues I've already listed as examples in this thread. Others have posted similar open tickets. They are not being addressed, and haven't been in some time now. Thus, it seems like it's dying. Thus, it leads to frustration. Thus, I started this discussion. We've come full circle now.

I'm still interested in finding out the Fubar revision numbers others have posted about in this thread that contain no bugs. Perhaps when that response comes through, I'll be a satisfied and once again happy camper with the state of Fubar. Who knows though?

Actually, if you check the Fubar Jira site, you will see someone else has even proposed fix(es) for these issues that have also fallen upon "deaf ears". In any event, this is only important and relevant here as it contributes to my reasoning for posting. I'm not being critical for the sake of being critical.

[erica647]

Originally Posted by Republic Anyone happen to know which revision number of Fubar was the last one to function correctly without overlapping minimap/bar/bouncy frame issues? Titan and Fubar, you know - two of the top mods in use, both appear to be dead. My definition of dead in this sense - not having a release version updated to current game version. I understand the catch-all "beta" tag that's thrown all over the place and badly misused in this mod world, but honestly, how is it that arguably the two most popular addons are this sloppy in development? Granted, we all have lives outside of the game but damn it guys - do something about such sluggish development. Here's an idea - put together a team to provide releases. Any thoughts? If one person no longer cares about a certain "responsibility" to the community that comes in developing such popular addons, god sakes - get a group of people to help you put things out in a timely manner. I'd be willing to bet there are folks ready to pick up the ball and run with it. There is no excuse for the download version of Fubar (on this site) to be 20003. There is no excuse a person should have to go searching through the rather cryptic archives of Ace Files to find something updated and functional with the current game version. Why is it that new addons are coming out all the time based on outdated panel mods? Does anyone else see something wrong with this picture? If a person can't or won't develop their mod, they need to drop it or pass the baton to someone who can or will. The game of wow itself goes backwards all the time. Lately, Fubar and Titan are moving in the same direction. We get angry at Blizzard for patches that break new things. Why shouldn't we also get angry at addon authors who appear unconscious? Base addons should be updated. Always. Is it testing? Lack of testing? Lack of concern? Lack of time? What's the deal? Anyone know? I'll settle for a Fubar that's only "partially broken" and doesnt jump all over my minimap! If anyone knows a version that won't do this - kindly post! I'll put you in my will. Would it be possible to put Cladhaire (best author going) in charge of everything I use? No? DAMN! <not really angry or critical - just mildly sick of having to search so hard for updates to Titan and/or Fubar> Thanks

After reading all the posts here, I'm not really sure if this is even still an issue. I did a little research and it does seem that the problem is with a couple of conflicting versions of the jostle library. I removed the reference to the version 2.0 of jostle from the xml file of a fubar plugin called locationfu which I found would cause the issue. Since fubar itself loads it's own jostle library (version 3.0), plugins really don't need to include this any more imho. The simplest way to solve this issue for now is to just load a minimap mod like Ricominimap which doesn't get moved by the jostle library (this problem only seems to happen with blizzard's minimap since jostle apparently is only to adjust the blizzard default frames). I also posted a recommended fix on jira if someone wants to take a look.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Kaomie Funny coincidence if you check the thread someone just opened next door called "cartographer problems". The version here is r30225. To most of us it seems obvious that this is old (wowaced addons are running into the r56000+ recently) and we just go and check WowAce to get something newer, but for someone who just discovers addons it may not seem so straightforward, even with the various links on the page.

Isn't it though? (a funny coincidence) I'm betting there are hundreds of similar posts among the major mod sites. For that matter, I even run across them in the official forums from time to time.

Originally Posted by Kaomie An idea: maybe WowInt could automatically mark uploads that have not been updated for a while (let's say a month or two) with a warning flag as "old" and explaining newer versions may be available (without moving them to outdated which is a totally different story). No?

Now we're getting somewhere and are following the hopes of my initial purpose for posting here. This sounds great to me, but it also may create extra work (initially) for someone else. That wasn't my goal, but I'd love to see more logic applied to mod distribution.

[Republic]

Originally Posted by erica647 After reading all the posts here, I'm not really sure if this is even still an issue. I did a little research and it does seem that the problem is with a couple of conflicting versions of the jostle library. I removed the reference to the version 2.0 of jostle from the xml file of a fubar plugin called locationfu which I found would cause the issue. Since fubar itself loads it's own jostle library (version 3.0), plugins really don't need to include this any more imho. The simplest way to solve this issue for now is to just load a minimap mod like Ricominimap which doesn't get moved by the jostle library (this problem only seems to happen with blizzard's minimap since jostle apparently is only to adjust the blizzard default frames). I also posted a recommended fix on jira if someone wants to take a look.

Indeed Erica. I saw your post earlier today on Jira and will be trying it very soon. Thank you for posting it over there as well as here.

[Gemini_II]

Originally Posted by Kaomie An idea: maybe WowInt could automatically mark uploads that have not been updated for a while (let's say a month or two) with a warning flag as "old" and explaining newer versions may be available (without moving them to outdated which is a totally different story).

That is a kickass idea. Another site (shudder to think of it) does that... and its the only thing I like at that place. /sign!

@Republic: I'm running FuBar r54616 (released 3 weeks ago), LibRock-1.0 r55267 (3 weeks), and LibJostle-3.0 r55679 (2 weeks) amongst the other Rock libs and Ace libs. All are current as of yesterday. I also got the old JostleLib r54514 (4 weeks) on my system and I wonder if that makes a difference. I'll play with it tonight and post back. Hope that helps somewhat.

[Cairenn]

Just because it is "old" doesn't necessarily mean that there is a newer one available anywhere else. Unless there is something seriously broken in a mod because of something that has changed in a patch, many authors don't bother to update. We move a mod to the outdated category after it has missed a number of major patches. I'm not sure that marking something as "old" will do anything to resolve the issue being discussed, other than send users into a frenzy of trying to find an updated version when there may be no such thing. Doesn't mean we aren't open to the idea, just not sure I really see how it will help. Feel free to continue the discussion though, certainly willing to listen.

[Seerah]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Just because it is "old" doesn't necessarily mean that there is a newer one available anywhere else. Unless there is something seriously broken in a mod because of something that has changed in a patch, many authors don't bother to update. We move a mod to the outdated category after it has missed a number of major patches. I'm not sure that marking something as "old" will do anything to resolve the issue being discussed, other than send users into a frenzy of trying to find an updated version when there may be no such thing. Doesn't mean we aren't open to the idea, just not sure I really see how it will help. Feel free to continue the discussion though, certainly willing to listen.

Following that line of thought... Currently, anything that is flagged as working with 2.3 by the author says so on the download page of that mod. How about a note that says that a mod has not been updated for 2.3, but may still work if "load out of date addons" is checked?

[Cairenn]

That's a given with any mod on any site. It may work with "load outdated", it may not. How does that improve anything?

[Republic]

Originally Posted by Cairenn That's a given with any mod on any site. It may work with "load outdated", it may not. How does that improve anything?

Because it's more information at the point of download. It's also a given that this information is well-known information to veteran users of mods, this site, other sites, etc. However, by putting more information at the point of download, it simplifies the process for new users. Approaching mod distribution/handling/downloading from a veteran's perspective fails to address the issues that make this entire process rather cryptic for new users, or those simply looking to "tinker" with finding their own solutions when mod authors fall short for whatever reason.

What's the downside to providing this type of tag line? I can't think of one. The upside is that it leads to better understanding and exchange of information. I think that makes it worth consideration. While this suggestion doesn't really "improve" the technical process of mod functionality, it does help improve mod understanding.

[Cairenn]

My point is that the tag applies to every single mod on every single site, which negates the whole original point of this topic, that being finding current mods. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just don't see that it really helps that much. Your point about novice users isn't a bad one, don't mistake me. But as it pertains to what this topic was originally about, it really doesn't address the issue at all.

[Rigorous]

Originally Posted by Cairenn the whole original point of this topic, that being finding current mods.

i believe the issues are two sides of the same coin.

there seems to me to be an onus being placed on both WoWI and the authors to be responsible for nearly every aspect of every users' interface add-on "experience" once they begin to use add-ons and i think that's an unreasonable expectation.

as Republic said:

review any site's help forums for 1001 basic questions on topics you and I consider as easy as breathing

and this is exactly why FAQs and forums like "Interface Help" exist...to help newbies and veterans alike. the information and/or the opportunity to get the information is quite clearly there by the OP's own admission. how much more hand-holding can the major distribution sites do? or be expected to do?

at the end of the day, imo, it's up to the user take responsibility for themself, use the resources that are obviously available and learn. the authors and the websites shouldn't be held to the lowest common denominator as a baseline.