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06-23-09, 11:59 AM   #1
Rhamses
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NU Innovations in Spell Management

Hi, my name here is Rhamses. I am new to the forums. I enjoyed NUI in beta and then stepped away from the game for a while. What brought me back was this idea I had about a new way to visualize Buffs/debuffs/cooldowns etc. I posted on Curse and Scott suggested that I bring the discussion here.

I have taken this from my original post on curse

Quote"
Hi,



I have been trying out a new concept in UI Spell Management. Someone is probably already doing this, but I have not seen it, so I will describe it and open for general discussion. I am using some LEAN manufacturing concept as well as Management by Exception with.... Ah hell, back to game talk... I think this will be very helpful to reduce dot clipping and increase the use of attacks with longer cooldowns.

First, I have the buttons of interest hidden when out of combat.

Second, the some buttons are set to only be visible if I can harm the target. Since, one cannot cast a Corruption without a target nor can one (No matter how badly you want to smack that Jenkins dude in your pug) , so why have the button present?

These are pretty straightforward. But, here is where the innovation comes into play (sorry, could not resist the pub). All of the buttons are set to 10% alpha so they are barely visible. Buttons are present, but cannot be seen, so I do not get into taint. Over the location of the button of interest I place a debuff Icon. The Icon only shows up when it is NOT on the target and cast by me. WTF? Yea, instead of showing that a debuff is present near the unit frame and/or on a separate cooldown table on the screen I put it right on my action bar. To put it another way, if I put a dot on a mob, the button "disappears". I do not see it. If I target a new mob the button reappears, because it has not yet been dotted by me. If I retarget the first, the button remains invisible until the debuff has runs its course. This way, I do not have to keep track of which debuff rundown belongs to what mob. Nor, do I have to wonder if that dot is mine or the other lock's.

In my best "Billy Maise" but, wait, there is more. I do something similar with my self-cast buffs. But, instead of treating it as a buff, I treat it as a cool down, because that is what is more important. I can remember the first 15 seconds of my buff, I am more worried about the 2 minute cooldown. Instead of having the numbers of the cooldown, or the darkness sweep, distracting me, I eliminate the clutter. Gone. I am not distracted with a button that cannot be used on precious screen space. Nor do I have to look back and forth at a separate cooldown counter. I use the same concept of cooldown on my attacks with cooldowns. If I cannot use it, it is not there.

So, what do you think? Is it innovative? Does anyone like it or should I just go back to watching TV and playing wow? Because, I am a twice baked couch potato(e for my good ol' buddy DanQ.)



Rhamses
End Quote

In a later post, I provided some screen shots that show my concept in action.

http://my.curse.com/members/rhamses/...slideshow.aspx

I look forward to your feed-back

Rhamses
 
06-23-09, 12:13 PM   #2
spiel2001
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Rhamses --

First... I *really* appreciate you bringing this idea here and I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to work with you on this.

As I pointed out in my original response to you on the Curse forum, the current development version of nUI is already tracking, on the action bars, which spells are active on the current target and which spells are on cooldown.

There's a four color system in place for the timers on the action bars at present that work like this...

If you have a spell cast on the target that is also on cooldown, the timer for that is colored purple. It shows you how much longer before the spell expires on the target and the purple color indicates that it is not only active on the target, but also on cooldown.

If you have a spell cast on the target that is not on cooldown, then how much longer the spell will remain active is given in bright blue (cyan actually).

If the spell is not active on the target, but is on cooldown, the time remaining on the cooldown is displayed in yellow until the last ten seconds at which time the timer turns red to alert you the spell is about to proc again.

There are slash commands to turn these counters on and off, as well, for those who do not want to see the timers on the action bar.

-----------------------------------

What I have in mind is to expand on this a bit using your idea as well.

First, I'll expand the action bar to not only look at the target, but to also look at you... can you cast the spell on yourself and, if so, is the spell active on you? So not only can we display what's on the target, but we can also display the self-cast spells the same way at the same time.

I would also add an option to show/hide the action bars when you are out of combat and make the mouseover if/when hidden out of combat. That cleans up the out-of-combat display while also allowing people who don't want them to hide out of combat to see them. If you are out of combat and have no target and the action bar is displayed, then all of the spells on the action bar are visible... this is pretty much required to allow people to set up and arrange their spells out of combat, etc.

As soon as you target a player/mob, then you logic goes into play, the action bars are activated and spells that can be cast are highlighted. Spells that cannot be cast are low alpha and spells on cooldown or active on the target are both low alpha and have the timers displayed *if* the user has timers active.

I *think* this approach accomplishes what you are describing. Yes?

A spell you can cast on the target (or yourself) right now, and that is not active on the target (or yoruself) at present is at full alpha with no timers. A spell that cannot be used right now is at low alpha with no timer. A spell that is active or on cooldown is low alpha with an optional timer.

Would two alpha states, or three states, be better? I'm thinking maybe three states for usable, unusable and active/cooldown. So unusable could be set to zero alpha, active to 1 alpha and active/cooldown somewhere between with the ability for the user to modify the states.

Yes? No? Ideas? Comments?
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06-23-09, 12:27 PM   #3
spiel2001
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Just following up on your other post... I did just now catch that we would replace the button icon with the spell icon when the spell is active, that's easy to do because I do already have that information at hand.
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06-23-09, 12:41 PM   #4
Vis
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Ok, so as I understand it, it would allow an "at a glance" look at what you can cast without having to allow your brain to fully process time remaining etc.

Definitely sounds like something that would be fun to experiment with rather than the standard cooldown timers.
 
06-23-09, 12:51 PM   #5
spiel2001
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Exactly -- in combat, if it's dimmed out, you don't need to cast it. Zero mental processing time needed to deal with the spells that are active or unusable... all you have to focus on is which ones you can cast.
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06-23-09, 12:53 PM   #6
Rhamses
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What you describe is pretty close to my concept. I will try and formally map out the logic. In kinda the readers digest version of my developmental process was

First, I have a bar that pops up if I have a "HARM"able targeted. In the exact same bar position, I have a "HELP"able bar. When neither of those conditions are met, the space is empty.

I have another bar spot that is triggered on Combat. On this bar I place spells I would like to cast in combat that do not require a target, but I would rather not use the action by mistake when I am out of combat. If I am not in combat, I would rather not blow my Soulshatter threat-dump or use a healthstone out of combat. Conversely, it is impossible to cast mount or hearth in combat, so they can be linked to NO COMBAT.

I am torn to have the HARM bar remain invisible until combat actually starts. At least once, I have accidentlty dotted a boss during the pre-buff causing a wipe. . But, then there are times when I would like to start casting before I am actually in combat to get ahead on the cycle time. My current work around idea is to have another bar with the most common initiators in the a non-combat bar.

I have spells and items invisible when they are on cool down.
I have Corruption disappear if my corruption is on the target.
If I have fel armor Buff the fel armor spell is invisible
When my weapon is enchanted, I have the weapon enchant icon covering the apply buff macro.

Figuring out all the logic conditions for all the spells for all the character types may be daunting. At a first crack, the player should probably load the spells on bars as well as the buff logic.

What I show in my screen shots is done with Bartender to control alpha and help / harm logic supplemented with TellMeWhen to control the binary aspects of the buffs.

Rhamses
 
06-23-09, 12:55 PM   #7
Vis
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By setting them at a lower Alpha or Opacity, would that prevent them from being recast early?

Taking Pally Judgements for instance.....I have Judgement of Light up on the targeted mob, the spell button Alpha is reduced. The debuff last's 20 sec, the spell cooldown is 10 sec's. At 15 sec's I want to recast. Will I be able to?
 
06-23-09, 12:58 PM   #8
Rhamses
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Originally Posted by spiel2001 View Post
Just following up on your other post... I did just now catch that we would replace the button icon with the spell icon when the spell is active, that's easy to do because I do already have that information at hand.
I think you mean the opposite. I use TellMeWhen to monitor when the spell is NOT present. When I cast Corruption, for example, the Tell Me When addon darkens the Buff icon and the spell on the bar is already at a very low alpha.

Believe me, the logic is convoluted. It takes some time to parse it

Rhamses
 
06-23-09, 01:06 PM   #9
spiel2001
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Originally Posted by Vis View Post
By setting them at a lower Alpha or Opacity, would that prevent them from being recast early?

Taking Pally Judgements for instance.....I have Judgement of Light up on the targeted mob, the spell button Alpha is reduced. The debuff last's 20 sec, the spell cooldown is 10 sec's. At 15 sec's I want to recast. Will I be able to?
I could address that by having an alert function... kind of the way the timer turns red when there's 10 seconds left on the cooldown... same thing... have the button start flashing x seconds before the spell/cooldown is about to expire. That would draw your focus to the spells you need to refresh.
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What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
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06-23-09, 01:08 PM   #10
spiel2001
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Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
Figuring out all the logic conditions for all the spells for all the character types may be daunting. At a first crack, the player should probably load the spells on bars as well as the buff logic.
Rhamses
A lot of this can be done programatically actually since I know whether the spell is usable on the current target or not and whether or not the spell is usable on you.
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What people don't get is that I am, ultimately, an artist at heart.
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06-23-09, 01:17 PM   #11
Rhamses
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Vis, thanks for your interest. I do not know enough about Pally spells. Does that have a five sec cast time? With something like that, you are probably better with numerical timer or a sweep. Can it be cast on multiple mobs sequentially?

The concept is in alpha. The harm / help and the no / combat work pretty well. Building in the conecept of buff / debuff / cooldwon / proc needs some process improvement, but I think it has real possibilities for some aspects of the game.

Rhamses
 
06-23-09, 01:23 PM   #12
Xrystal
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These sound like good ideas and in most cases I can see them workable ( assuming Scott can do it ).

However, on my shadow priest ( and I am sure Scott you have tried these out at least once while levelling ) I have spells that soothe a mob so that I can go nearer without ever being in combat. But it is also a spell that can be used in combat. I use it whenever we do Naxx 25 and I am mind controlling the Instructors Assistants. Mind Control is another one that is initiated before combat actually starts. This sounds like it falls into the category of that special bar that handles pre combat spells.

Having the dots/hots buttons fade out when active may also be handy as a better visual than numbers.

Perhaps we could go one step further and perhaps in time have a set of bars with x number of buttons on that handle a specific function.

Skill Bar : Hidden when in combat and handles tradeskills.
Action Bar : Hidden when not in combat and handles in combat abilities.
Buff Bar : Available at all times but perhaps the alpha levels coming into play for individuals that need buffing after dying.
Consumables Bar : Available at all times for pre combat buff food and drink and in combat emergency mana and health potions etc.

With the interface the way it is hiding bars from view would make the setup look funny. Low Alpha levels may be the better choice as you can see the item is there just not needed to be used at the present time ( kinda like what I did with the Portal/Teleport buttons when in and out of group ).
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06-23-09, 01:28 PM   #13
Rhamses
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xrystal,

Yea, any particular spell can be on multiple bars. But, once you "tag" the mob, it would fadeout on both bars.

Rhamses
 
06-23-09, 01:30 PM   #14
Vis
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Originally Posted by Rhamses View Post
Vis, thanks for your interest. I do not know enough about Pally spells. Does that have a five sec cast time? With something like that, you are probably better with numerical timer or a sweep. Can it be cast on multiple mobs sequentially?
As long as the spell isn't on cooldown, I can drop it on multiple mobs. Due to the cooldown time on the cast of it though, I could in theory only keep it active on 2 targets with a perfect rotation.

For example attacking 3 mobs:

Mob 1 - Judgement of light cast..starts a 10 sec cooldown and places a 20 sec debuff on the target
Mob 2 - Cannot judge, spell on cooldown
Mob 3 - Cannot Judge, spell on cooldown

10 secs later...

Mob 1 - Judgement of Light debuff has 10 sec duration left on mob
Mob 2 - Judgement of light cast..starts a 10 sec cooldown and places a 20 sec debuff on the target
Mob 3 - Cannot Judge, spell on cooldown

10 secs later, rinse repeat from the top.
 
06-23-09, 01:35 PM   #15
Vis
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Originally Posted by Xrystal View Post
With the interface the way it is hiding bars from view would make the setup look funny. Low Alpha levels may be the better choice as you can see the item is there just not needed to be used at the present time ( kinda like what I did with the Portal/Teleport buttons when in and out of group ).
That was similar to what I was envisioning. Rather than have to create special bars, utilize the existing bars and just change the spell Alpha depending on cooldowns and whether or not a debuff is seen on the mob for that particular spell.

On a performance note, how would something like this affect fps or memory usage of nUI?
 
06-23-09, 01:41 PM   #16
Rhamses
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The logic for that would be

Initally, nothing

Target Mob1, Icon pops up

Cast spell, Icon disappears, because it is on cooldown and because it is on the mob.

Cool down complete, spell available, but if present on mob1 it would still be dim

Target Mob2 Icon shows up because spell is available to be cast and not on the target.

Probably the best thing would be instead of my binary, the icon shops up with a cool down sweeper or a color to indicate run down is nearing completion. My Immolate is similar, but the logic I had available to me was binary. Since Scott has the expertise and is already changing colors etc, he can probably handle it.

Rhamses
 
06-23-09, 02:03 PM   #17
spiel2001
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Originally Posted by Vis View Post
On a performance note, how would something like this affect fps or memory usage of nUI?
Not that much really because nUI is pretty much already doing all of the work that's required to make this work. The only thing I have to add is an extra texture layer for the aura icon when the aura is active and setting the alpha. Everything else required for this is already being done.
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06-23-09, 03:30 PM   #18
neuralassassin
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Sounds like an awesome idea but as most of you have said completely hiding the bars wouldn't work atleast not with nUI's setup but the alpha idea is great if we're just talk about a visual reminder as vis was saying it wont make the button unusable if its faded right? Just so at a glance you can see whats available to be cast and what has already been applied
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06-23-09, 03:35 PM   #19
spiel2001
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Correct -- it would still be usable, just faded.

As for fading the whole bar... if you're using one of the thin skins it would work because the three action bars above the skin would vanish making that unustructed space. The bars that would be on the skin would be the two on either side of the unit frames and the two in the bottom corners... I don't think it would be too visually disturbing if they were gone. And, of course, it would be optioned, so those who don't want them to go away it wouldn't.
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06-23-09, 05:13 PM   #20
Rhamses
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http://my.curse.com/members/rhamses/...slideshow.aspx

Above is the link to some more screenshots.

I have used NUI and created new bars with macaroon to demonstrate how I see the bars changing. Button placement is not optimized and I hve not implemented the buff system

Look at the 2 bars just below the prime bar (the really long bar)

In screenshot 1 I have nothing targeted. There is nothing on the left bar
the right bar has non-combat actions.

In screen 2 I targeted a friendly unit, Note the change in the left bar. Things that I can do to a friendly target.

In screen 3 I target a mob I can harm and my dots show up in the left. Since I am still not in combat the right bar remains the same.

In screen 4 I am now in combat targeting a hostile. Left remains the same, but non-combat options are gone.

Rhamses
 
 

WoWInterface » Featured Projects » nUI, MozzFullWorldMap and PartySpotter » Support » nUI: Suggestion Box » NU Innovations in Spell Management

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