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08-14-05, 09:21 PM   #1
Cairenn
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/sigh

Yet another site that is uploading mods without checking with the mod authors themselves:

World of Warcraft UI Mod Database (WOW DB)

And it would appear that they are ripping them straight from the ui.worldofwar.net database.

When will people learn that things like that are theft of intellectual property?

Thread on Blizzard forum is here.
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Last edited by Cairenn : 08-14-05 at 10:59 PM.
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08-14-05, 09:43 PM   #2
Kaelten
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ya this kinda got me miffed as well. considering the version of KCI that is up there is now two versions old, and apparently has 6 downloads.
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08-14-05, 10:32 PM   #3
Kaelten
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omg now their the google of ui mods? wtf?
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08-14-05, 10:34 PM   #4
Cairenn
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hehehe, saw that
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08-14-05, 10:50 PM   #5
Cairenn
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Ummm, where did the thread go? Have I just gone blind?
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08-14-05, 10:53 PM   #6
Devla
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Its gone

Their site is still up though...better update your mods soon!
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08-14-05, 11:00 PM   #7
Kaelten
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lol thats funny
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08-15-05, 09:10 AM   #8
guice
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Didn't the owner of this site post an advertisement on this site not too long ago? I do recall seeing a "Hey! I made a new UI site, check it out!" type post.

Oh, nm. I found the post it was another site...
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08-15-05, 01:53 PM   #9
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What the heck, I went over there and requested a procedure to upload the package for hunters I make and he said "Right now there is no way for authors to upload"

So what, they are uploading other peoples work but that same person cant even update or change their own mod?

Yea...theres something not right with that.

I dont know, not my business, I wont be using the site , that was enough to put me off.
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08-15-05, 05:09 PM   #10
Brugs
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Originally Posted by Cairenn
Yet another site that is uploading mods without checking with the mod authors themselves:

World of Warcraft UI Mod Database (WOW DB)

And it would appear that they are ripping them straight from the ui.worldofwar.net database.

When will people learn that things like that are theft of intellectual property?

Thread on Blizzard forum is here.
Hi there,

First, I would like to appreciate that I uploaded information about authors, and there is no excuses for this action.

Now the next step is how I will salvage this process. We are here now, and what I did is not acceptable. I cannot change the past, and I will take full responsibility of this.

The thing is how we can continue so all parts get friendly out of this situation. I can tell you that I have used more than 500 hours freely to develop this service. My intention has always been "give something to the community", a service that could make things simpler.

Now here is my story...
When I created the first UI Mod Database back in December 2004, I had a complete system where people could upload there UI mod information. I quickly grew to 50-70 mods.

A couple of weeks after I see a new UI Mod DB popup, this is wowaddons.com (now defunct). This mod DB started already with 50 UI Mods from beginning...

If I remember, clear 9 January another UI Mod DB popup - this time this is curse-gaming. The DB opened with more than 100 UI Mods and it quickly got very popular, and grew very fast to today's #1 UI Mod DB. Sites like wowaddons.com and mine did poorly after curse-gaming - simply of lack of features compared to curse-gaming.

Already back in beginning of February I was busy with school, so I disconnected my UI Mod database. Somewhere in May, I saw another popular “pre created” WoW DB popup – this time it was ui.worldofwar.

I am not sure when/how wowinterface / wowguru was build. However, I believe that they were definitely not from an empty playground.

However, I see the same similarity over and over with new UI Mod databases – that they was created with pre-build UI Mods and they share the same user base. No matter in what scale you did this, without asking the authors it does not make you less suspected. I do not find it fair to be accused by the majority, because there is so many others linked to this factor.

So where does this lead us?
I predict within not very long time - we will see many new WoW UI Mod Databases popup, this factor is just a matter of time. This will eventually lead to an even more complex and chaotic situation for the UI Mod Developers.

“Already back in January I said to the community - that we will need a standard for all the UI Mods.” - Brugs

However, one thing for sure, you cannot judge me like this - because I clearly explained that all major parts have done the same.

Another factor is you cannot judge anyone here about intellectual property - we can only hence about this. None of us has the technical expertise, neither the right to stamp each other - because this simply leads to no good.

Because I created the first UI Mod Database - does it give me the right to own the concept?

I would like to see an open debate about this… and hear people’s opinion…

Brugs
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08-15-05, 05:13 PM   #11
Kaelten
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no, it gives you no such right.

You CAN own a certain set of codes. you cannot own an idea for a site. That would mean that the first search engine for online code could shut all others down.

The first blog could be the only one.

You own the code you write to run a site. Not the idea a site presents.


My suggestion for the course of action for you is to

1) clear your DB.

2) finish the full system

3) relaunch the site and invite authors to post there.
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08-15-05, 05:17 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brugs
I am not sure when/how wowinterface / wowguru was build. However, I believe that they were definitely not from an empty playground.
All our interfaces were uploaded by their respected authors. 100%. That is how we always did it for all our sites ever since eqinterface.com was opened in July of 2002.
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08-15-05, 06:03 PM   #13
Cairenn
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Originally Posted by Brugs
I am not sure when/how wowinterface / wowguru was build. However, I believe that they were definitely not from an empty playground.

However, I see the same similarity over and over with new UI Mod databases – that they was created with pre-build UI Mods and they share the same user base. No matter in what scale you did this, without asking the authors it does not make you less suspected. I do not find it fair to be accused by the majority, because there is so many others linked to this factor.
However, one thing for sure, you cannot judge me like this - because I clearly explained that all major parts have done the same.
This site has never uploaded someone's mods. The only people that upload mods here are the mod authors themselves. Always been that way, always will be.

Another factor is you cannot judge anyone here about intellectual property - we can only hence about this. None of us has the technical expertise, neither the right to stamp each other - because this simply leads to no good.
Actually, yes we can. If you make available to others (redistribute) works done by someone other than yourself, without their express consent, that is infringement of their intellectual copyright protections. There are no two ways around it.

Let me say, though, that I do believe that you didn't intend any harm, and now that you see the response by the community, you have addressed it, which is all to the good. Kudos to you, it takes a big person to apologize.

Because I created the first UI Mod Database - does it give me the right to own the concept?
Check my "registered" date. We were around during closed beta. We had to close for a while for various reasons, and re-opened in January, the same time as Curse-Gaming.com and ui.worldofwar.net opened their doors. We just weren't as "big", because we didn't have a pre-populated database of mods, as already discussed.



All of that being said, I meant what I said on the Blizzard forums. Welcome back, I really do hope your site does well.

Last edited by Cairenn : 08-15-05 at 06:16 PM.
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08-15-05, 06:33 PM   #14
Brugs
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Originally Posted by Cairenn
Actually, yes we can. If you make available to others (redistribute) works done by someone other than yourself, without their express consent, that is infringement of their intellectual copyright protections. There are no two ways around it.
Please stop accusing me; you do not have any physical evidence. Please revise your conclussion.

Well you cannot speak for other people - let people decide on there own, how they would like to redistribute there intellectual properties. Neither did I ask to Google to spider my site...

They are certainly welcome to email me with any concerns (admin at wow-db.com)

Originally Posted by Cairenn
Check my "registered" date. We were around during closed beta. We had to close for a while for various reasons, and re-opened in January, the same time as Curse-Gaming.com and ui.worldofwar.net opened their doors. We just weren't as "big", because we didn't have a pre-populated database of mods, as already discussed.
Registered date does not say anything - it's the content that count. You can do the talk, but can you do the walk?

Brugs
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08-15-05, 06:37 PM   #15
Cairenn
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As you wish ...

/bow

I remind people to keep it civil.
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Last edited by Cairenn : 08-15-05 at 07:10 PM.
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08-15-05, 07:09 PM   #16
Kaelten
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ok, evidence? My addons are all on your site, without you asking me for consent. I imagine that constitutes as physical evidence that you have hosted files belonging to author people other than yourself without consulting all the authors concerned.

And please know that if you don't want google to spyder your site there are easy ways to stop it.

Also they will be happy to remove any cached materials they have in relation to a site upon request.

Again though Google doesn't host files, they link to them.
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08-16-05, 09:44 AM   #17
Brugs
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Originally Posted by Kaelten
ok, evidence? My addons are all on your site, without you asking me for consent. I imagine that constitutes as physical evidence that you have hosted files belonging to author people other than yourself without consulting all the authors concerned.

And please know that if you don't want google to spyder your site there are easy ways to stop it.

Also they will be happy to remove any cached materials they have in relation to a site upon request.

Again though Google doesn't host files, they link to them.
I would like to ask permission to host your UI Mod(s) - If you do not wish so, please provide me info about which UI Mod(s) you own and I will remove them from my site.
You can also mail me (admin at wow-db.com)

Please do only speak on your own UI Mod(s) behalf.

Brugs
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Last edited by Brugs : 08-16-05 at 09:47 AM.
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08-16-05, 10:47 AM   #18
Littlejohn
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Originally Posted by Brugs
If you do not wish so, please provide me info about which UI Mod(s) you own and I will remove them from my site.
I think this is the fundamental problem. You assume you have permission and want people to send a request to remove mods. In fact, you DON'T have permission and you must have people send a note giving you permission. (It's fairly rare, but some mods are explicitly public domain. You can copy those without permission.)

As far as I can tell, there are 2 main mod sites. Curse gaming is the biggest site and caters to players looking for mods. It's like the Walmart of the mod world. The other big site, WoW Interface, is smaller, but friendlier and encourages conversation between authors and players. It's like a specialty book shop with good coffee. The two sites serve different needs and I think they co-exist pretty well. (In truth, I can see WoW Interface filling the role of Curse Gaming, but not vice versa.)

If you want to have a popular site, you've got to win over an audience. Beladona did this for me with the awesome version diffs. WoW wiki did this for me with the WoW API listing. WoW Interface did this for me with a great message board and mod author support. Curse gaming did this just by being huge.

How are you going to win people over?
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08-16-05, 10:51 AM   #19
Rastaah
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My issue isnt that you prepopulated it, whatever, If Curse and Worldofwar did it, Its still not right, but its not 'my' problem. That is I have no clue who's problem (I dont know who regulates this stuff nor do I care)

What MY Issue is noone can upload there so if you say have Kaeltens work there , originally without his permission but he decided to be a good sport and say go put the most updated wonderful version of his creation there, HE CANT EVEN DO THAT.

That is MY issue.

Give people a break, you expect them to be happy you not only uploaded their work but then made it impossible for them to work on it?

Thats what you need to get going and fast. Thats just plain wrong.

The rest of this stuff of prepopulating is wrong too, but most likely if other sites did it and got away with it, that set a precedent until someoen actually does something about it.

Get your site really ready, then put it up. Its half baked at the moment, but has potential....



Good luck,

I might add here, Cairenn was civil to you in her post and you responded with a really defensive post, get professional while your at it. Honestly, you seem like you have a good intention but its not up to her to walk the walk, shes got a track record. Its up to you to show people your actions meet with your words.

Last edited by Rastaah : 08-16-05 at 10:53 AM.
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08-16-05, 12:01 PM   #20
Syxx
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Personally I find the whole idea of prepopulating revolting. Maybe it's just me, but there it is.

I have to agree with Rastaah here as well. Taking other peoples work then not having a function (other than simple re-uploading, not even sure I saw that on the site) for them to update it it kind of silly. Looks like the site needs a tad more work.

I'm also not thrilled with your idea of responsibility. It's not the authors job to tell you to take the work down. It's your responsibility you get the permission first. But then again, that defeats the purpose of prepopulating to draw visitors doesn't it? Which in the end is the dilemma. How to get visitors to your site? Have a ton of mods.

I myself, don't think yet another Mod site is needed. Ui.worldofwar.net, WoWInterface.com, and Curse-gaming.com have the mod scene extremely well covered. Unless you're going to offer something really special, which I didn't really see anything special on your site.
Don't get me wrong, the internet is open to all and you can have any kind of site you want pretty much, I'm not begrudging you your mod site.

You just really started out on the wrong foot and your in a well covered area covered by superior websites.

One last thing, again agreeing with Rastaah here, I think the little jabs you took at Cairenn are uncalled for. She's been around for a long time and we all have a lot of respect for her and the rest of the great staff here. She was very civil and yet you still took the opportunity to talk down to her? I think you need some lessons in manners, but that's just me.

Well, I wish you well with your site, I really do. I won't be frequenting it for obvious reasons.

6

P.S. I know there is a fine line between stating opinions and flaming. I hope I didn't cross the line (I don't think I did), if I did, you have my apologies.
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