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04-22-09, 01:36 PM   #741
rdsully
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Wink

Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
/em waits for new, tekkub-specific WM drama to start.

I hope I get some pissed-off emails tomorrow.
If you'd like, I could quickly script something to send you randomly generated 'your stance on WM pisses me off' emails.



(although I wouldn't really mean it, it might keep you occupied for a little while)

and just for the banana lovers.

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04-22-09, 01:39 PM   #742
Tristanian
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I think this is the right time for a :

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04-22-09, 01:52 PM   #743
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I personally don't think using an updater is something to be despised in the same way I don't hate people who use a Car to get to work instead of walking, when done right both morally and sustainably it can make the updating progress much easier and as has been already stated many times in this thread WoWMatrix's approach was neither, but hopefully the new WoWInterface Addon Manager will be fantastic.
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04-22-09, 02:08 PM   #744
Spookie455
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Originally Posted by Lykofos View Post
maybe its time to say hi to the rest of the community.
Maybe but I hardly have anything of value to say!

Originally Posted by Tekkub View Post
There's a difference.
I should hope so.
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04-22-09, 02:10 PM   #745
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
WoWInterface and Curse hate their users!
That is so far from the truth that it makes us shake our heads. Anyone who has been around either of the sites know better. I used to work in retail. If our shrink rates were too high from shoplifting, that meant our store was in big trouble. Anyone who works retail knows that the store cannot recoup losses from shoplifting. The store/company purchase products to place in their store for people to buy. If that stuff is stolen instead, the store cannot get their money back for those items. In order to make up for that their usually have to raise prices or increase security. This doesn't mean that they hate their shoppers. It means that they are trying to protect themselves and keep themselves afloat so that the shoppers can rest assured that their favorite store will still be there tomorrow.
Why did you do this right before the patch?
It wasn't to spite users. See above for that. Anyone that visited our site (or Curse) for the last few patches are aware of the troubles we had in keeping it up. Our datacenter has shut down our servers in the past for wowmatrix looking like a DDOS attack (we didn't shut it down, the datacenter did). That combined with the natural demands on us during a patch day have made our site crash and time out for users. This makes it no fun for users. Why yesterday instead of last week? 1. Because it takes time to put this stuff together. 2. Because if we did it last week, wowmatrix may have hacked their way around our protections (wouldn't be the first time) and we'd have overloaded sites again on patch day. Now, ask yourself which is better? A site that you can get to for your addons or a site that you (even wowmatrix) can't?
Your accusations against WowMatrix are unfounded!
I am sorry, but they are not. Earlier in this thread were 3-4 linked threads about wowmatrix from last fall. If you wish, I could probably dig up 20 more going back to the first day that they started stealing from addon sites and declared that they "wanted a cut of the market". They were met with hostility that day on the wowace forums (about a year and a half ago or so) because they weren't an addon hosting site, they were thieves. They were scraping the wowace repository and rehosting those addons (many of them were outdated versions). Please educate yourself before accusing us of slander.
Why don't you work together with WowMatrix?
We have tried to contact them. Curse has tried to contact them. One day, WM and Curse actually did talk about a possible deal. WowMatrix offered them a mere fraction of the costs they cause Curse in order to keep doing what they were doing. When Curse said, "wait, no - you cause us to spend 20 times that on bandwidth," wowmatrix basically gave them the finger and ignored them again. At this point, we find it morally reprehensible to try to work out a deal with someone that has absolutely no respect for us, Curse, the authors, or the community. All wowmatrix wants is their "cut of the market" - they have *never ever* been a part of the community, tried to work things out respectfully with the addon sites, or been a part of discussions with users/authors.
Having users visit your site will cause more bandwidth than WowMatrix uses.
While it may seem like the truth, it isn't. You vastly underestimate the bandwidth that is consumed moving addons, and the number of users WowMatrix had that were hammering our site, scraping pages. As has been already noted, our data center has shut down our servers on several occasions because they thought we were under DDOS attacks. We were actually just being hammered by WowMatrix users. Curse's bandwidth usage went down by 30% when they cut off WM yesterday, and WoWInterface's went down by 50%. Sure, now those users will be visiting the sites. But the key here is this: NOT in as high of a frequency. And, yes, we'll stil get our ad views and our page impressions. We need those to stay alive. Don't you want us to still be here? Ultimately, our site will still be up and running for you to actually get your addons now. Both on a server load basis and and for the future basis.
Were other alternatives considered before this?
Of course - this isn't the easiest route, you know. Anything we tried to put into place before to limit wowmatrix's usage, they would just hack their way around it. Any time we tried to talk to them, they either ignored us or insulted us. We tried to ignore them for a time, too. But the costs just got too great. We are talking about TERABYTES of data here for bandwidth usage. You can't even imagine the costs that places on websites.
Why do authors care so much? Is this really about them, too?
I am saying all of this as an addon author myself: 95% of all addons were written because the author thought it would be a neat thing for them themselves to have for the game. Probably only about 70-75% of all addons are released to distribution sites. And this is usually only because the author has a sense of pride in what they have accomplished and wish to share it with others in case they might like it too. Many authors don't even care if users use their addons. What the authors *do* care about, though, is feeling like they have some sort of control over their addons and what they create. This is precisely why addons have licenses. Oh - and btw - an addon without a license means that the addon is "all rights reserved". The actual presence of a license is what allows people to do stuff with it. Addons are *not* Open-Source unless a license declares it so. Just because you can read it in NotePad, doesn't mean it's Open-Source. The authors also wish to help take care of the real addon sites that have taken care of them. If wowi and curse go down the drain, we'd be sad authors.
Why didn't you wait until the new WoWI updater was ready?
Believe me, that would have been icing on the cake. Unfortunately, sometimes things in life don't work out the way that you want them to. Life is messy and complicated. Shirik has been so very busy with his school and getting an internship for the summer, he has hardly slept much the past few months - often staying up until early hours of the morning working on his studies or the updater. He just hasn't been able to get it finished yet. The alpha version is very promising and works fairly well, but there are still a few kinks to work out before it is ready for public consumption. But we could not wait on the WowMatrix thing. We wanted the peace of mind that the site would be up and available for users, and that we wouldn't have to call Dolby at all hours of the day or night telling him to restart the server ASAP because it had crashed. We are not exaggerating here. If you did not see the issues during the last few patches, you were lucky and we were fast at catching them. Dolby worked his ass off.
Why don't WoWInterface and Curse work together to create an updater?
While we agree that that would be nice for the users, and in a perfect world, you might see the Curse-WoWI Updater, this is not a perfect world. While we did work together on this (I likened it to the WotLK expansion on the forums), we are still competitors. What I can say is that our new updater will be able to use any modules written for it - even one for Curse if someone writes it.


I am sure that I am forgetting responses to some things, but I have been sitting here at my desk longer than I was supposed to already, and it has been about an hour and you deserve to see my response and to have the thread unlocked again for discussion. I am sorry for having to lock it, and I am sorry for having to temp ban some of you. But sometimes ugly things need to be done. I hope the hour gave a few of you time to cool off as well.

Please, please follow the site rules when replying to this thread and keep things civil and level headed. While we don't ask you to agree with what was done, we do ask you to understand where we were coming from and to respect that. Make use of the favorites on both sites. You can set it up to be emailed if an addon is updated. You won't even have to come looking.
Don't beat me, Seerah. Just thought this should be bumped again.

/hides
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04-22-09, 02:19 PM   #746
rdsully
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in famous slashdot fashion, I'll try to describe this situation using a car analogy.

You drive a company car provided by your employer (Curse). I drive one provided by my employer (WowMatrix). Curse provides you with free fuel (bandwidth), and free maintenance on your vehicle (server infrastructure). My employer doesn't provide that. When you and I need to attend the same meeting (download an addon), you get your car checked out at the shop for free and you fill it up at the company gas station. On the other hand, I sneak in and use your companies shop to have my shiny car serviced, and fill up my car at your companies gas station, but it takes more gas to get me to the meeting than it does you.

Someone is still paying all the costs for fuel and service to get me to the meeting, it's just not my company. Their only cost is my car. All of the fuel and service costs are getting billed to your company.

I know it's not a perfect analogy, but it's very close to the situation here.


and I must have another account on here that I forgot, because I've been coming here since mazzle was actively developed by mazzle. I hate having a newer joined date, and a low(non-existant) post count

Last edited by rdsully : 04-22-09 at 02:53 PM.
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04-22-09, 02:29 PM   #747
Cairenn
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Originally Posted by rdsully View Post
and I must have another account on here that I forgot, because I've been coming here since mazzle was actively developed by mazzle. I hate having a newer joined date, and a low(non-existant) post count
PM me and we'll see if we can find it.
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04-22-09, 03:18 PM   #748
Rhaethe
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Originally Posted by rdsully View Post

and just for the banana lovers.


/etc/init.d/thread_derail on

Not a banana lover.

Should have dancing Pandas --

Or even ... Dancing CHEESE! --


But, just for you banana lovers, I give you --


/etc/init.d/thread_derail off
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04-22-09, 06:19 PM   #749
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
Go ahead and get the "you just registered knives out," Yes I did just make this account, similar to making one on curse to post a similar comment. I was not previously registered for the forums, because I find them somewhat useless. I don't have the time to comb through 50 pages of muck for 1 relevent comment. I am a casual player and same w/ user of add ons. Now that this concern has been raised on the bus. practice of WM, I will end my use of that product. What I don't understand, and concerns me the most, is the venom being spat from the people who are "in the right."
Well I don't see where you see this venom coming from.

WM traffic was draining their bandwidth worse than a bit torrent user downloading movies.

As stated repeatedly on post after post. They did try working with wowmatrix and they don't want to work with either site.

Here's some relevant posts :

http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...4&postcount=77 Shirak on trying to work with wow matrix
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=108 Seerah post on things
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...&pageNo=17#322 final post by cairenn
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=188 fins metasite why it is better then wow matrix
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=416 tekkub on wow matrix's pitiful offer
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=448 dolby and why they had to do it
http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=298 caireen on how they had no choice

They did what they had to do to survive. Load up wowinterface or curse. Notice how fast and responsive that is ? Thats a direct result of cutting 30% to 50% of 1.3 to 1.8 TB per hour of traffic. Traffic that wasn't being recouped by advertising btw
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04-22-09, 06:55 PM   #750
Spookie455
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Come to think of it. While don't you have the FAQ and complied list of horror stories in the first post?

I'm sure no one will read it of course but I'm sure you'll feel better even if it's a short distraction from repeatedly banging your head against the wall of ignorance.
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04-22-09, 07:10 PM   #751
ymir3
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
I will even go on a limb and state that said users do not deserve any kind of support in my eyes. I would suspect that others may feel the same way.
If that's not a verminous comment I don't know what is

Trust me, if I made mods to please users like you, I would have quit loooooong ago.


Another needless comment, and I'm only up to page 4 (sorry, I don't use forums not sure how the quote things work)

You obviously do not wish to read earlier posts in this topic, so I'll just quote what I said earlier in this topic. You can call it rude if you want to, but you give me no reason to act in a reasonable manner when your posts are only full of FUD.


Open admission to being rude, made it to page 5 now.

Obviously you missed the entire point of my post. You just lumped me w/ the ppl for WM, which I'm not. I do think from a tech standpoint this could have been handled better, but from a customer side (and curse and WOWI brought money into this, we're customers) the lack of any kind of understanding is disturbing. Some of the posts I was talking about have been removed, the ones calling anyone who wouldn't update their mods by hand lazy and slothful, but there are still plenty of examples of this if you go through the thread. And it is very much worse on curses forums. I'll happily try a product from WOWI since, the lack of understanding seems to be from the progs who wrote the add ons, where at curse it's from the moderators.

In the end, I just think its irrational to take those of us who didn't know any different and lump us in w/ the ppl who are defending WM. Like I said in my first post, I'm not going to use WM if this is the bus practice that they use, but I really dislike the way this is being handled. You need to remember, most of the players on wow are "casual players" and barely have any idea of the argument even being present, so tone down the banter and state fact and leave the other stuff out.

PS. Honem, I never me said anything about them working w/ WM, I'd seen that in the posts I read. And I didn't say anything about them "doing what they had to too survive." You said nothing at all relevant to my post so if you just want to repost things that have been said just do so, don't use my post that was not about yours in anyway as a springboard.
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04-22-09, 07:31 PM   #752
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
Obviously you missed the entire point of my post. You just lumped me w/ the ppl for WM, which I'm not. I do think from a tech standpoint this could have been handled better, but from a customer side (and curse and WOWI brought money into this, we're customers) the lack of any kind of understanding is disturbing.
Well for that I apologise.

I guess the non understanding thing between the Authors and there users might stem from the posts about the new UI Policy. In which there were a lot of entitlement addon users posting things that basically said to the addon authors "you are our slaves STFU!"

As for the "could of been handled better from a tech point of view" I'm saying they tried that. And WM got past every protection they put in place. I'm sorry for saying this but I get a little tired of posts from people who think the curse/wowinterface team could of done this or that when they have tried that in the past and it hasn't worked against WM
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04-22-09, 07:51 PM   #753
ymir3
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I'm just trying to come from my point of view that I had no idea this was an issue, and many that I know didn't either. There were allusions in the curse forums that WM users had been told, and that is what I think could have been handled better. This is obviously an ongoing issue, many months in the making, but as a casual user, I had no idea. Then I went to curse first and the forums there are newest first, so it was all sniping and unreadable from a standpoint of what's going on(and it was fully from both sides). I hope that there is a solution that fits the needs of the many, and I know that not everyone will be happy w/ it, but I think both sides need to tone down the rhetoric, it's still all based on a game.
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04-22-09, 08:03 PM   #754
Torhal
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
it's still all based on a game.
Actually, the "debate" is based on WM hammering the AddOn web sites so hard on patch days that it's effectively equivalent to a DDOS attack, and uses so much bandwidth that those sites were in danger of going out of business due to monetary drain. Many of the WM users don't care about this, and are simply angry that their updater no longer works - and blame the AddOn sites, when the whole reason it was failing was due to the way it operated to begin with being successfully defended against for the first time in memory.

Yes, this is all centered around "a game", but there are real-world implications that most WM users either don't care to realize, or don't care about if they do.
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04-22-09, 08:16 PM   #755
Yhor
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
There were allusions in the curse forums that WM users had been told, and that is what I think could have been handled better.
I agree, but I also don't know -how- it could've been handled any better. My meager efforts of trying to spread the word about WoWMatrix in Nov and Dec on my realm forums had very little in the way of views. There was some discussion, but it couldn't get past page 2. It was like beating a dead horse that died at birth; no one seemed to care, as long as they could go about with business as usual. You yourself admit to not reading forums, can you say that it absolutely was not handled the best it could've been? Please give an example that hasn't already been said in this thread.

By the way, welcome to the forums.
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04-22-09, 08:18 PM   #756
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
I'm just trying to come from my point of view that I had no idea this was an issue, and many that I know didn't either.
Ok I can understand that. That's why this thread is a pretty good read if you can make it through the entirety. A tabbed browser is good for this

Have you used the contact form on wow matrix ?
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04-22-09, 08:27 PM   #757
Tristanian
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
If that's not a verminous comment I don't know what is

Trust me, if I made mods to please users like you, I would have quit loooooong ago.
And I stand by my opinion, 100%, unlike others that choose whatever seems convenient at the time. It is verminous if you choose to take it out of context. If you notice the original post I was referring to, you would understand why I responded in such a manner. And just to make it crystal clear. No, I do not care about the hundreds (or millions) that are incapable of updating their addons, be it from sloth, ineptitude, a lack of understanding, or whatever other reason and wouldn't be able to provide meaningful feedback for error X but would rather choose to delete addon Y and find a replacement. If they do not take the time and put the tiniest amount of effort to provide said feedback, displaying that they care just one bit, then why should I care ? Give me one good reason. If you consider this attitude verminous, then what can I say, as tekkub has stated in the past "I may be an elitist p*ick but at least I'm a happy one". You see, It's not a job, its a hobby. People generalizing that ALL authors make addons just to please users, need to stop. It is untrue. You will actually discover that most of us, are actually very reasonable people, when approached in a proper and polite manner.

You talk about lack of understanding but the need for understanding, goes both ways. People came here originally, spited by the fact that a block was in effect causing them to lose their free bacon and even after everything was explained thoroughly and multiple times (links were posted about the history of the case, official responses posted and whatnot) , they kept bashing the admins for doing something they were literally forced to do, in order to stay active in the community. Please explain me to how said people can be handled "better". On WoWInsider comments, on the relevant news post, the admins were even called "Nazis", associated with Scientology (!?!) and whatever else you can think of. Those were not "verminous" comments ? At the end of the day, you are dealing with people, with a certain amount of patience and understanding, good intentions aside. And even taking that into consideration, things in this particular thread, were kept pretty much in order.


And we are still...
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04-22-09, 08:30 PM   #758
ymir3
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I haven't tried the contact thing on WM, as when I first got it I had no reason to believe there was any problems with it. And I'm not here to suggest an alternate handling of the issue. I'm reading the forums now, and I haven't liked the angle the side in the right has taken to many of the posts. I'm just saying the hate from both sides is a little silly, even going so far as the DDOS stuff it doesn't call for hate. I know that a venture takes heart, but if we kept more emotions out of business it would be better all around. Curse and WOWI see this as an immoral business practice, so that should be stated, and the name calling left out. It's elementary debate that you need to be calm and composed to make your side heard. I'm on your side, just wanted you to know how the early pages of this thread are coming across to noobs like me.

Look at it like this, you see too people on the side of the road having and argument, one guy is screaming bloody murder, the other is calm and collected, who do you listen too when you have to find out whats going on. At the end of the day silence is a much better answer then venom any day, and if you can't sit w/ that, then the restatement of clean solid fact is better.

And I do use a tabbed browser, called crazy browser, not as cool as fire fox, but I've had FF eat my comp more then once.

Last edited by ymir3 : 04-22-09 at 08:36 PM. Reason: response to post while i was typing
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04-22-09, 09:18 PM   #759
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Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
I haven't tried the contact thing on WM, as when I first got it I had no reason to believe there was any problems with it.
Personally if I had a problem with a program I would be petioning the people that make it. 'course WM is now serving up old versions of addons from their servers so thats besides the point

Originally Posted by ymir3 View Post
Curse and WOWI see this as an immoral business practice, so that should be stated, and the name calling left out. It's elementary debate that you need to be calm and composed to make your side heard.
They have. All the responses I've seen from the admins of both sites are calm and collected. Much of the responses I've seen from the supports of curse and wow interface are for the most part calm and collected

Point is I've read much worse responses from other addon authors I know. "Sarge" of the wowace forums I wouldn't sic on anyone
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04-23-09, 02:48 AM   #760
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Originally Posted by Kaelten View Post
Has anyone noticed that most of the people showing up to protest haven't been active in the community at all until this week?

Many of them haven't even had accounts.

I've noticed it on curse too...
Kaelten,

I told you this on your own site, and in the name of maintaining a similar perspective across venues, it concerns me that you seem so willing to be condescending and invalidate others in the name of making your perspective seem more relevant.

I will caution you here the same way I did on your forums: professionalism, respect, and kindness will do far more to further your cause (in this case, your software) than condescension and rudeness.

"But, I wasn't being condescending or rude..."

You most certainly were. The only reason I've recently checked out WI or CC is because they have done something that directly affects me. That doesn't make my voice any less important in the din of support and dissent for either side that is being simultaneously thrust into the debate. Your comment makes it seem as though I have no right to express an opinion, because from your perspective, I'm a "Johnny-come-lately" on the scene. I take that attitude to be exremely arrogant and unnecessary, and I'm not so sure it makes me willing to give you so much as a second glance except to note what I don't like about you or your software.

To draw a bottom line, you are alienating WoWMatrix users. If you want us to use your product, quit it. I can understand your frustration with WoWMatrix, but we aren't WoWMatrix, so we'll appreciate you not treating us like we are.

Moving on...


Cairenn,

As I have watched this debate take place over time and talked to many of the developers of the mods I enjoy using through private messages, I've come to realize that while I may appreciate the functionality of WoWMatrix, I'm not a fan of the legality (or lack thereof in this case) of their actions. Even if the issue weren't legal, I still wouldn't be fond of the lack of respect inherent to their alleged practices.

Unfortunately, I really like the way their software functions. >< Having gone through your post history in this thread, it would seem you and I are on the same page (if not fairly close to it).

Reviewing your post history has also shown me that you prefer calm, rational, respectful discussion, and when all's been said and done, I may very likely be using whatever addon manager your site produces. I have some questions about it, however, and as I feel comfortable bringing them to you, I'm going to ask them here.

1) As a WoWMatrix user, I have the ability to download and update mods without the hassle of logging in. I know it reflects well on a software producer when they have the ability to track how many people are using their software. If I use your product, will I have to logon in the application? If so, will there be some kind of "Remember Me" option I can check so I only have to click "Okay" to logon?

2) As a WoWMatrix user, I have enjoyed extremely minimalistic adverts. (Other WM users who haven't noticed them, I promise they're there. You haven't been advert-free this whole time. They really have been making money off your usage, no matter how little money they were actually generating.) I understand that in order to generate a quality addon manager and maintain the servers which support that manager, you need to have the adverts there. What kind of links, banners, pop-ups, or pop-unders can I expect when using your coming addon manager?

3) Can I look forward to an "Update All" function as a free user?

4) Will there be some functions available to paid users that aren't available to free users, or is your addon manager going to be equally simple for both sets of users?

5) Will Macintosh users with any form of MacOS on any hardware be able to use your addon manager?

Thank you, Cairenn, for being approachable with these questions. I'm not sure I have too many options if I have to leave WoWMatrix, but I like the thought that you're one of the options I have.

Respectfully,
Nate

PS @ Raethe: Dancing cheese ftw! ^^
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Last edited by us2006027321 : 04-23-09 at 03:57 AM.
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