WowMatrix Responds!

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by lilsparky edit: oh yeah, i also remember a lot of folks switching to "ace versions" of addons solely because they could auto-update at wowace. if wowmatrix was smart, they'd simply write their own "matrix versions" of addons and simply compete on that level. wouldn't surprise me if they already have begun.

Only problem is the admins here and the authors have attempted to work with Wowmatrix for over a year now. They (wow matrix) have a history of not answering peoples emails and and this latest pack of lies ?? They have burned a lot of bridges on their way up but this latest pack of tripe means I will never ever trust them every again.

I'm sorry but I do not see any authors ever agreeing to host their addons with them (wowmatrix) full stop. If they do it will be because the users are forcing them to.

They've never wanted to work with the community and quite frankly I don't believe they ever will.(wowmatrix that is)

PS I had to go out and kill every revenant in Wintergrasp after reading their bald faced f*****g lies

[Torhal]

Originally Posted by honem I'm sorry but I do not see any authors ever agreeing to host their addons with them (wowmatrix) full stop. If they do it will be because the users are forcing them to.

My users would have to come to my home as a mob with pitchforks and torches in order to force me to use any future services WM may start providing for authors.

[VincentSDSH]

Originally Posted by Pyrophoric Furthermore, why is someone who chooses a side always considered a blind follower and or ignorant?

Because some people can't stand hearing another opinion than their own (example of Lykofos' issue with Sky) and anyone who disagrees can't possibly do so with any degree of thought or deliberation and must be blind follower -- since if they arrived at their opinion with thought or deliberation then our original group might somehow, possibly, be wrong...and we can't have that.

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by VincentSDSH Because some people can't stand hearing another opinion than their own (example of Lykofos' issue with Sky) and anyone who disagrees can't possibly do so with any degree of thought or deliberation and must be blind follower -- since if they arrived at their opinion with thought or deliberation then our original group might somehow, possibly, be wrong...and we can't have that.

You may want to reword that post as I find it a bit personally offensive. That is all I am going to say on this topic.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by Torhal My users would have to come to my home as a mob with pitchforks and torches in order to force me to use any future services WM may start providing for authors.

First off I has discovered the multi - quote button

Secondly if a mob come to your door with pitchforks and torches you wouldn't change where you uploaded your addons.

You would call the Police to get the Armed Offenders squad out there to get the crazy s****** of b***** off your lawn !

Originally Posted by VincentSDSH Because some people can't stand hearing another opinion than their own (example of Lykofos' issue with Sky) and anyone who disagrees can't possibly do so with any degree of thought or deliberation and must be blind follower -- since if they arrived at their opinion with thought or deliberation then our original group might somehow, possibly, be wrong...and we can't have that.

Well for me it's either the other way. I've been following this issue for over a year. I've read thread after thread after thread of responses from addon authors and what wow matrix has done for them.

Based on that I form my own opinion . I also tote the "you don't really need an addon updater" line.

When I present an "opinion" based on all my reading and research I get called a paid stoogie. That's right , because I have an opinion I get accused of getting bribed to say so. Like my opinion means absolutely nothing to people.

Also I a little bit insulted about how you response seems to lump Lykofos with the people who can't stand any opinion other then their own. A wow matrix supporter may have the wrong idea about addons and updaters but their opinion is still a valid one.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by Cairenn I just posted this in another thread, but I want to make darn good and sure that everyone has seen it, so posting it here as well. Originally Posted by Cairenn FYI: I have had absolutely enough with the personal attacks. We've said it over and over and over again throughout this thread (amongst others). Either you follow the site rules, specifically: Originally Posted by Cairenn The condensed version, for those that aren't Monty Python fans. 1. Post with respect and courtesy. Debate is fine ... so long as when you disagree with someone, you respond in a civilized and constructive manner. 2. No slander. Don't come here and slam/flame anyone/thing. Don't come here sounding off that Blizz sucks, EQ sucks, mod_author_01 sucks, etc and so on. None of that. You want to post things like that, take it elsewhere, there are enough other boards that cater to that type of thing. This isn't FlameVault. See 1. Or I am going to start handing out temporary vacations from the site or full out bans. Now stop it. No, I'm not saying that there has been any in here so far, but I'm just warning you guys that my patience is at an end.

A number of you are starting to push the line again, on both sides of the argument ...

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by honem First off I has discovered the multi - quote button Secondly if a mob come to your door with pitchforks and torches you wouldn't change where you uploaded your addons. You would call the Police to get the Armed Offenders squad out there to get the crazy s****** of b***** off your lawn !

I'd point and laugh at 'em for bringin' torches and pitchforks to a gun fight.

[Seerah]

Originally Posted by Cairenn I just posted this in another thread, but I want to make darn good and sure that everyone has seen it, so posting it here as well. Originally Posted by Cairenn FYI: I have had absolutely enough with the personal attacks. We've said it over and over and over again throughout this thread (amongst others). Either you follow the site rules, specifically: Originally Posted by Cairenn The condensed version, for those that aren't Monty Python fans. 1. Post with respect and courtesy. Debate is fine ... so long as when you disagree with someone, you respond in a civilized and constructive manner. 2. No slander. Don't come here and slam/flame anyone/thing. Don't come here sounding off that Blizz sucks, EQ sucks, mod_author_01 sucks, etc and so on. None of that. You want to post things like that, take it elsewhere, there are enough other boards that cater to that type of thing. This isn't FlameVault. See 1. Or I am going to start handing out temporary vacations from the site or full out bans. Now stop it. No, I'm not saying that there has been any in here so far, but I'm just warning you guys that my patience is at an end. A number of you are starting to push the line again, on both sides of the argument ...

Seriously? The second post after this? I have removed the flames (they were offtopic, too).

[Slakah]

WoWInterface cares about the users and authors. Curse/Ace cares about the users and authors. WoWM has shown that it does not and the evidence is there for anyone who does not want to turn a blind eye to it. Any in-house addons they provide would just be a continued extension of how they do business: That is, like a used car sales man named "Jim Jones".

I don't personally rate a distribution method by how much "they care" (although I'm sure WoWI would win), but more about the service they provide, and I personally find WoWMatrix offered a dodgy service in a nice package which clearly was not sustainable. I wont go into how I rate Curses "service" as I would probably earn myself a holiday (the bad kind of holiday) :P.

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by honem Only problem is the admins here and the authors have attempted to work with Wowmatrix for over a year now. They (wow matrix) have a history of not answering peoples emails and and this latest pack of lies ?? They have burned a lot of bridges on their way up but this latest pack of tripe means I will never ever trust them every again. I'm sorry but I do not see any authors ever agreeing to host their addons with them (wowmatrix) full stop. If they do it will be because the users are forcing them to. They've never wanted to work with the community and quite frankly I don't believe they ever will.(wowmatrix that is) PS I had to go out and kill every revenant in Wintergrasp after reading their bald faced f*****g lies

yeah, i guess my only point in this regard is that i kind of sense where things are headed with addons and money. perhaps the blizzard addon policy wasn't aimed at carbonite (as people theorized) and sort of more about the whole idea of how money and addons intersect.

there's money to be made in the addon game. wowmatrix wants some (as to curse and zam). i don't think wowmatrix's goal is to be shady and obnoxious, i think their goal is to provide something nobody else does. i think they did some shady stuff, to be sure, but i think they had their reasons beyond just being "evil". (my sense is that they are going after the "dumb" folks who don't want to run around forums trying to figure out how to make things work)

it's not a leap to imaging the future of addon sites being about exclusivity -- at least, for the big draws. the trick is how to ensure an exclusive deal. one way is to pay folks to write the addons expressly for you.

[PerfectH]

This is my take on the whole thing, whether people read it or not, this is how I feel and see it:

From what I've heard, WoWMatrix (I've never used it myself) makes installing and updating AddOns a breeze for the casual WoW user. However, the majority of their AddOns do not come from their own website or database, it's taken from WoWInterface.com and Curse.com's database instead. While this doesn't seem to matter to most people who use WoWMatrix, it matters to WoWI and Curse.

The reason why it matters is because WoWI and Curse have a huge database of AddOns which take up a lot of space. To host that space on the web costs (I imagine) a great deal of money. The founders and co-founders of these websites really don't want to and/or are unable to provide this cash from their own pockets, so they depend on Advertisements and Donations such as Premium subscriptions to help keep the websites and database servers alive.

So what this means is by using WoWMatrix, the user is avoiding these advertisements and not even considering subscribing to one of these websites to help them out. While we all can agree no one likes to see advertisements on anything, it helps out WoWI and Curse in ways you can't imagine. Without those advertisements, these websites would be shutdown by the end of the month, unless of course you subscribe then you don't need to see them, but you are still supporting the website because you did subscribe.

This is a similar reason to why I hear my friends say who don't play WoW that don't want to pay the $14.99/month subscription, because they think if they buy the game they shouldn't have to. I can't even imagine how much money Blizzard is pissing away to keep those servers running. Each server holds thousands of players (I don't know the exact count), and I can't imagine how much one server would cost to host in a year, probably more money than I can make in 3 years. It's non-sense, Blizzard needs a subscription to keep the servers and websites alive.

WoWI and Curse need subscriptions, donations, and advertisements to keep their websites alive, too. If you download from WoWMatrix and avoid those advertisements and subscriptions, then you are essentially stealing as far as I'm concerned. Argue with me on this if you want, I think Cairenn and Kaelten would agree with me.

That is my two-cents on the matter. That's how I feel, whether you agree or not, doesn't matter. Just saying this is what I see.

P.S. Sorry to go off topic a little, but about the WoW AddOn Policy thing... I think Blizzard did this to protect themselves. They have seen a rise in scams, hacks, and account compromises and I think they are concerned people maybe getting scammed via AddOn. They can't exclude or single out anyone, so they've made it so you cannot advertise for donations in-game for this reason. They're not after your dollar, in fact they specifically said you can advertise for donations on 3rd party websites such as WoWI and Curse, which I think WoWI has done a generous and remarkable job supporting, but just don't advertise in-game.

Honestly, think about this for a minute, do you really believe that Blizzard is money hungry, cigar smoking, laughing, evil corporate swines? The same people who brought you this fantastic game in the first place? Seriously think about this logically.

[lilsparky]

Originally Posted by PerfectH P.S. Sorry to go off topic a little, but about the WoW AddOn Policy thing... I think Blizzard did this to protect themselves. They have seen a rise in scams, hacks, and account compromises and I think they are concerned people maybe getting scammed via AddOn. They can't exclude or single out anyone, so they've made it so you cannot advertise for donations in-game for this reason. They're not after your dollar, in fact they specifically said you can advertise for donations on 3rd party websites such as WoWI and Curse, which I think WoWI has done a generous and remarkable job supporting, but just don't advertise in-game. Honestly, think about this for a minute, do you really believe that Blizzard is money hungry, cigar smoking, laughing, evil corporate swines? The same people who brought you this fantastic game in the first place? Seriously think about this logically.

that wasn't what i was getting at, really. i was saying that the blizz policy for addons prevent places like wowi, curse, or whoever from explicitly charging for addons. it's the first point on the list.

i'm just pointing out that the addon community isn't just a bunch of people all giving away stuff for free, the money angle is becoming more and more prominent and my guess is that the blizzard official policy was made partly to address this fact and to help keep addons from being completely monetized.

addons increase the playability of wow, so anything that hurts their free distribution hurts wow and ultimately hurts blizzard.

[Phantom]

Originally Posted by lilsparky that wasn't what i was getting at, really. i was saying that the blizz policy for addons prevent places like wowi, curse, or whoever from explicitly charging for addons. it's the first point on the list. i'm just pointing out that the addon community isn't just a bunch of people all giving away stuff for free, the money angle is becoming more and more prominent and my guess is that the blizzard official policy was made partly to address this fact and to help keep addons from being completely monetized. addons increase the playability of wow, so anything that hurts their free distribution hurts wow and ultimately hurts blizzard.

Good News

Curse and wowi do not charge anyone to download an add-on.

They might offer services to make the process easier in different ways via a client or some other method outside the normal method. Curse and WoW Interface are not the authors of these add-ons remember that important fact. The entire policy is that authors cannot charge for the add-on.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by PerfectH P.S. Sorry to go off topic a little, but about the WoW AddOn Policy thing... I think Blizzard did this to protect themselves. They have seen a rise in scams, hacks, and account compromises and I think they are concerned people maybe getting scammed via AddOn.

Ok my friend I do believe you are incorrect in your statement.

Addons operate in a sandboxed enviroment. They can only read things in from a file in one of the SavedVariables folders. They can only write out to these folders at logout time or when you exit the game. They cannont access any of your files or access the internet in game. They need to be loaded and interpreted in game to do anything. Outside of game they're just benign text files.

I read a lot of forums to do with World of warcraft. I've yet to come across a single case of someone being scammed or hacked or their account being comprised from an Addon they've unzipped and put in their addons folder. Maybe from an exe program they've run or an add they've clicked. But not in and from the addon itself.

Although addons can only effect the in game enviroment there is still a raft of malicous effects it can have on players in game. You could have one that would secretly delete every 10th arrow in your bag when firing or put the timers out for characters with particular phrases in their name. You could have one that would send a stoogy character of the Author's on each realm 20G each time someone opened a mailbox (not sure if this one is completely possible). My point is *despite* having a sandboxed enviroment there is still malicuous things you could do to a player via an addon. It's just that in my forum travels I've never come across a single example of this.

[Torhal]

Originally Posted by honem You could have one that would send a stoogy character of the Author's on each realm 20G each time someone opened a mailbox (not sure if this one is completely possible).

Nope. A dialog box pops up and says "Are you sure you want to send Hackmaster 20g?"

[Shadowed]

Originally Posted by Torhal Nope. A dialog box pops up and says "Are you sure you want to send Hackmaster 20g?"

Doesn't matter, sending mail is not secure and auto-accepting the dialog isn't either.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by Torhal Nope. A dialog box pops up and says "Are you sure you want to send Hackmaster 20g?"

Oh well.

But my point still stands. Someone could write a malicous addon maybe even a copy of a popular one. That can operate perfectly fine within the sandbox but still be damaging in some way to things in game.

Problem is I haven't found one reported case of it. And no the QH disconnecting people in game isn't example of this (too minor)

[Elhana]

There is no good guys or bad guys - all of them doing business, therefore last thing they care about is you (no matter what they say). Example: Shadowed posted he is moving his addons from GoogleCode to avoid opensource license - a way to stop WM to host his addons, however with that move he forces people who liked using WM to update manually from various sites.

Bandwidth is just an excuse, I bet all of them run with unlimited plans anyway. If this was an issue, you can easily come up with a mirror solutions if users is what you care about. Nevertheless WM offered their bandwidth, curse and wowi refused.
Also not all, but some guilds could host mirrors for addons they use without much problems if they were given an easy way to do so.

On the other hand most users running AdBlock in Firefox and the last thing they care about is business revenues.

Most addons are developed by other players.
If some useful addon will halt development - another one will pop up soon to fill the gap, hence authors whining about blizz UI policy is quite amusing.
QQ about Outfitter is especially funny as there is quite some alternate gear managers and blizz UI has simple one aswell now, so who cares?
There is no addon I can't live without and cannot replace really.

p.s. I personally always updated manually, using old WOWI updater once a week since LK. Actually never knew about WM before all this drama started.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by Elhana Bandwidth is just an excuse, I bet all of them run with unlimited plans anyway. If this was an issue, you can easily come up with a mirror solutions if users is what you care about. Nevertheless WM offered their bandwidth, curse and wowi refused.

Umm the Bandwidth is a real issue. These sites aren't just some mom and pop outfit that might do at most 20 or 30 GB a month. Curse posted an estimate of their data usage on patch day. It was averaging out to be 1.3 to 1.8 Terabytes of traffic per hour. That's 1331 GB to 1843 GB per hour. The usage may be lower on a non patch day but it's still pretty high.

No "unlimited" bandwidth hosting companies going to tolerate that level of data for long.

The mirror solutions they might of had money to implement but with all the traffic WM was causing they couldn't. Bandwidth isn't free , it doesn't grow on trees. Servers don't run on Sunshine , Rainbows and Bacon.

Also there are posts from addon authors , wow matrix and curse where they say they've tried to contact wowmatrix and wowmatrix have not responded. These threads go back to October 2007. WM are not telling the truth to you when they say "Wowinterface refused to work with us". They never responded to any of the emails, requests for contact or any of the messages from the admins of this site.

Originally Posted by Elhana Also not all, but some guilds could host mirrors for addons they use without much problems if they were given an easy way to do so.

They might come up against copyright infringement from the authors.

Originally Posted by Elhana On the other hand most users running AdBlock in Firefox and the last thing they care about is business revenues.

Again the admins say they still get paid from page impressions even with people blocking the ads.

[Slakah]

Although addons can only effect the in game enviroment there is still a raft of malicous effects it can have on players in game. You could have one that would secretly delete every 10th arrow in your bag when firing or put the timers out for characters with particular phrases in their name. You could have one that would send a stoogy character of the Author's on each realm 20G each time someone opened a mailbox (not sure if this one is completely possible). My point is *despite* having a sandboxed enviroment there is still malicuous things you could do to a player via an addon. It's just that in my forum travels I've never come across a single example of this.

Someone could even create a fake login screen once entering the gameworld, and then send your username/pass to a character via the whisper system, people need to be weary of these things.