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09-10-12, 04:06 AM   #1
hatori1181
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Aug 2012
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I'm no longer supporting this add-on

I noticed, after I logged into WoW today that carbonite had an update. I went to Rythal's page and was surprised to see that the Carbonite devs were going to continue work on the add-on.

I was not prepared for what I would see when I came to the forums, here. Not only did the developer NOT thank Rythal for his hard work, but I was shocked to read this from the developer: "I did not know a patch was released... I don't play WoW anymore except for testing the addon."

But that paled in comparison to what came next: It is our addon. We did not ask, nor do we want someone else modding it.

I won't tell you to work for free or give your property away, so please don't tell us what we should do with our property.


REALLY? So not only are they not thanking Rythal, but they are going to be dickish about receiving help?

It's clear to me that the developer is only updating this add-on for the continued donations. I'd be willing to bet that the patch is yet another bandage like the previous patches, and that if one were to look under the hood of the new patch, you'd find little had changed. (Or worse, that they had incorporated Rythal's work without crediting him.)

I'm done. While I like this add-on, I will not use, nor support in any fashion, this add-on any longer. I hope as the rest of the world wakes up and sees this level of douchebaggery, that others will do the same.
 
09-10-12, 07:14 AM   #2
Agent Smith
A Deviate Faerie Dragon
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i'm with you... I'll use rythal's version while I seek out the best replacements for the features of carbonite that I used the most. Sadly that's probably going to mean 3 or 4 addons, but in the end it will probably run smoother than carbonite does right now. It's just a shame...
 
09-10-12, 07:25 AM   #3
myrroddin
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I am not going to debate thanking Rythal, especially since I haven't used Carbonite since early Burning Crusade, and I never used it in vanilla. However, I hope that everyone realizes that Carbonite has a copyright, and Rythal breached said copyright?

If someone came along and started modifying my addons without permission or violating my copyright, I too would be angry. Case in point: here and here and most especially here.

On a side note, it should be to nobody's surprise that Carbonite's devs stopped playing the game. The community was more or less aware of that fact during early Wrath of the Lich King. Great, there is an official update, but it is time to move on; yes, even if you "cannot play the game without Carbonite." Yes, of course you can. There are other addons that do exactly the same things as Carbonite, and do them better because they are specialized.
 
09-10-12, 07:54 AM   #4
Agent Smith
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there is a slight difference. he never ever laid claim to it and tried to contact the devs. what he did is more akin to finding glaring grammatical errors in a book, telling the author, fixing it and giving a fixed copy to his friends who had already acquired the faulty book. it's kind of a gray area... but there it is. and the moment the devs announced their umm triumphant return? he took it down. sadly they didn't use his edits and we're back to repeating every bug rythal had fixed already.

the fact that admins of this forum allowed this to go on and indeed participated in the conversations, bug reporting and aiding people installing the fixes should really tell you something
 
09-10-12, 08:06 AM   #5
Kagaro
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Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
there is a slight difference. he never ever laid claim to it and tried to contact the devs. what he did is more akin to finding glaring grammatical errors in a book, telling the author, fixing it and giving a fixed copy to his friends who had already acquired the faulty book. it's kind of a gray area... but there it is. and the moment the devs announced their umm triumphant return? he took it down. sadly they didn't use his edits and we're back to repeating every bug rythal had fixed already.

the fact that admins of this forum allowed this to go on and indeed participated in the conversations, bug reporting and aiding people installing the fixes should really tell you something
in your example above, changing the grammar and distributing the fixes to those that had it does count as copyright violation via deritave works.
 
09-10-12, 08:17 AM   #6
Agent Smith
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well if we're going to go that route, then rythal holds the rights to any code that he wrote to make it work. personally, i think the devs could have been a whole lot more gracious and taken him on as part of the team, and had a nearly fully functional update that just needed a little fine tuning
 
09-10-12, 08:28 AM   #7
Caremsis
A Fallenroot Satyr
Join Date: Sep 2012
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and the best: rythals Carbonite Version for 5.0.4 was working on german WoW Clients -.-
 
09-10-12, 08:31 AM   #8
Agent Smith
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Rythal's WORKED period. The dev's version doesn't.
 
09-10-12, 08:42 AM   #9
kittykatmax
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Well, that's disappointing. Saw there was an official update and thought I'd check to see if my fears that it would be same old, same old (bandaid on a gushing wound) were valid - and it sounds like they are.

I stumbled across what Rythal was doing (had given up on Carbonite during early Wrath because of how it impacted game stability), and had high hopes the Carbonite author(s) would either hand Carbonite over to him - or better yet work WITH him. Carbonite was well overdue for some real attention and repair under the hood, and it was finally getting it. It is truly depressing to realize the Carbonite author would rather offer buggy garbage (that I for one will skip AGAIN, tyvm) in hopes of getting (undeserved) donations than have assistance and restore Carbonite to its former glory. Hell, Rythal was all for the Carbonite owner getting money for his (Rythal's) work so what did the author have to lose?

I would gladly donate for a solid Carbonite experience. If the Carbonite author worked with Rythal to truly rejuvenite and repair (not half-assedly patch) what was once an amazing addon, I would donate - I was a happying paying customer back before Blizzard banned the practice and gladly donated afterwards.

Regardless of this official "update", we have been essentially shown that Carbonite is dead.
 
09-10-12, 08:48 AM   #10
Agent Smith
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Aye... and to make matters worse, I was reading the one other thread and fataal "forgot" about the website until someone mentioned it. How the heck do you forget a website you made for the addon you are repairing? It's just another sign that they don't care one iota about carbonite and we should do whatever mourning we need to do and move on.

I say mourning tongue in cheek of course... It bogs down wow so much, i'm sure i can run three addons to do what carbonite did and it will be less resource intensive and carbonite was

Last edited by Agent Smith : 09-10-12 at 08:50 AM. Reason: clarification
 
09-10-12, 08:48 AM   #11
OrlyYarly
A Murloc Raider
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4
*sigh*

A) Thanks for creating a great addon and having maintained it as long as you did. Hopefully you can be more responsive going forward.
B) However, if you're not playing WoW anymore and can't do timely updates you should hand it to the community or bring some additional people into the team to keep it updated.

Additionally.. all this yip yap of copyright talk is such a waste of time. If I decide to take this addon, fix it, call it my own and put it up for people to download for free - exactly what are you going to do? Hire a lawyer to send me a cease and desist letter? (assuming you can find me) /twirl Then what? Actually sue me? Good luck with that. I mean, seriously good luck with that. You're not selling a product so my giving it away does you no financial harm to sue me for. (Good luck proving I'm hurting your 'donations') All you have to go on is the fact that I stole your code and reused parts of it in my own updates. I'm not selling it, so you couldn't get me for receiving any type of gain from your work. So again, feel free to say how badly I'd be breaking the law and how much trouble I could get in. The reality is yeah, it's a dick thing to do, but there's jack you can do about it.

Should you keep disappearing for months at a time in a period where WoW is going to be doing major updates, then don't be surprised if it happens. You've made a great addon which many people depend on and if you're not going to keep it working, someone else will. If you're still receiving donations for the work then you have a moral responsibility to keep it working for people giving you their hard earned money, or to offer it to the community so they can.

The next person might not be as nice as Rythal in making repeated attempts at contacting you, telling people they should send their donations to you if they wanted to donate, and saying he didn't want to take it over.

There's no question it's "yours". Nobody ever debated that.
 
09-10-12, 08:54 AM   #12
Agent Smith
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Originally Posted by OrlyYarly View Post
*sigh*

A) Thanks for creating a great addon and having maintained it as long as you did. Hopefully you can be more responsive going forward.
B) However, if you're not playing WoW anymore and can't do timely updates you should hand it to the community or bring some additional people into the team to keep it updated.

Additionally.. all this yip yap of copyright talk is such a waste of time. If I decide to take this addon, fix it, call it my own and put it up for people to download for free - exactly what are you going to do? Hire a lawyer to send me a cease and desist letter? (assuming you can find me) /twirl Then what? Actually sue me? Good luck with that. I mean, seriously good luck with that. You're not selling a product so my giving it away does you no financial harm to sue me for. (Good luck proving I'm hurting your 'donations') All you have to go on is the fact that I stole your code and reused parts of it in my own updates. I'm not selling it, so you couldn't get me for receiving any type of gain from your work. So again, feel free to say how badly I'd be breaking the law and how much trouble I could get in. The reality is yeah, it's a dick thing to do, but there's jack you can do about it.

Should you keep disappearing for months at a time in a period where WoW is going to be doing major updates, then don't be surprised if it happens. You've made a great addon which many people depend on and if you're not going to keep it working, someone else will. If you're still receiving donations for the work then you have a moral responsibility to keep it working for people giving you their hard earned money, or to offer it to the community so they can.

The next person might not be as nice as Rythal in making repeated attempts at contacting you, telling people they should send their donations to you if they wanted to donate, and saying he didn't want to take it over.

There's no question it's "yours". Nobody ever debated that.
I kinda love you right now....
 
09-10-12, 09:38 AM   #13
VincentSDSH
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However, I hope that everyone realizes that Carbonite has a copyright, and Rythal breached said copyright?
Carbonite was developed as a money-generating-enterprise, not as part of the mod community. When Blizzard banned fee-to-use mods and encrypting the Lua (as Carbonite did), they switched to a donation model. Their rebuke of Rythal is not surprising, given their low feelings of the community of modders and users but it does display a unique lack of understanding, both of the relationship between mod authors and mod users, and the community on these forums as well.

If you want to argue copyright infringement, show me the damages that the Carbonite folks incurred. Rythal's work maintained users of Carbonite for the dickish and ungrateful authors who don't even have the courtesy to keep tabs on the forum enough to update the users of the mod, let alone truly maintain the project. The authors of Carbonite received a net benefit from Rythal's unpaid, uncompensated work.

I've had my mods 'fan updated' before and those fans have operated as Rythal did: keeping the mod updated for the users while I get my act together and providing me their updates free of copyright. That isn't any degree of "infringement;" rather, it is how a mod community should work. Users are happy; mod author is happy (unless they're simply jerks). Numerous mods have been 'fan updated' and those updates disappear when the mod author re-appears and I can't recall ever seeing such a display of asshattery on the part of a mod author. Rythal even went the extra mile -- and went an extra mile beyond that -- to assert the copyright of the Carbonite authors in his patch.

I understand the need to assert copyright in order to retain it but a polite email is all that is required. The Carbonite authors bring to mind the image of a person who drops something and walks away. When someone meekly picks it up and brings it over to them, they snatch it back and accuse them of being a thief. Rythal meekly picked up the ball the Carbonite asshats, er, authors let drop hard, and he got spit on for his trouble.

I am abandoning Carbonite at this point. I'm perfectly happy for mod authors to make money from their work; I'm not happy supporting the feckless jerks who run carboniteaddon.com.
 
09-10-12, 10:05 AM   #14
Agent Smith
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Vincent, very well (and amusingly) said. I couldn't agree more. Hopefully the developers of Carbonite will stand up like men long enough to thank Rythal for keeping THEIR project alive long enough for them to catch up.
 
09-10-12, 10:06 AM   #15
Kagaro
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just as a FYI, willful copyright violation as defined by copyright law can be prosecuted via
18 USC § 2319 - Criminal infringement of a copyright

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2319

there is more than just suing you for losses if they really really want spend a butt load of money defending it. just a FYI
 
09-10-12, 10:38 AM   #16
OrlyYarly
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Originally Posted by Kagaro View Post
there is more than just suing you for losses if they really really want spend a butt load of money defending it. just a FYI
File that under 'never going to happen'. The costs to pursue (let's just assume the 'offender' is in the US in the first place) vs the reward for success aren't worth it. Just ask the RIAA how many MP3 sharers they sue, or better yet how many publishing companies file lawsuits against people sharing eBooks. Both of those involve financial losses and have big companies behind them.

We could argue this all day of course, and in the end I'm not suggesting someone do this. I'm pointing out that if someone did, there's nothing that would be done about it. At best the original authors would be able to keep it off of Curse and this site. That's pretty much it.
 
09-10-12, 02:24 PM   #17
VincentSDSH
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Originally Posted by Kagaro View Post
just as a FYI, willful copyright violation as defined by copyright law can be prosecuted via
18 USC § 2319 - Criminal infringement of a copyright

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2319

there is more than just suing you for losses if they really really want spend a butt load of money defending it. just a FYI
I think you'd have a hell of a time getting a judge not to laugh you out of court.
 
09-10-12, 05:12 PM   #18
jc2470
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I thank rythal for fixing it so i was able to use it, but i said from the beginning, it is there property, and whether they charge or not is not even the point, if they wish to discontinue the project, it is there right and it doesnt give anyone else the authority to pick it up and start modding it without there approval. For those say they are updating it for the donations, im pretty sure they dont make much money at all for it especially considering how much work went into the project.

For those going off on the developers just be thankful they patched it, I havent seen many programs that unless stated, the developers are ok with people messing with there work. No matter the developers situation it is still a privilege to be using the addon, and if dont like it, it is your right to use something else.

I for one and am glad developers have patched it.
 
09-10-12, 05:15 PM   #19
ezarra
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Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
Rythal's WORKED period. The dev's version doesn't.
Kind of says it all.
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09-10-12, 05:48 PM   #20
ookamiashes
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 2
First off slapping a trademark tag on your page doesn't give you a trademark. You actually have to apply for it and have it approved. A search of http://www.uspto.gov/index.jsp yields no such result for carbonite addon.

Second according to your own homepage your copyright ran out in 2011.

CARBONITE® is a registered trademark of Carbon Based Creations, LLC.

“World of Warcraftt® and “WOW” are trademarks owned by Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. This Website and the CARBONITE® Addon are not endorsed by or affiliated with Blizzard Entertainment, Inc.

The CARBONITE® Addon is not affiliated with or sponsored by Carbonite, Inc. or its CARBONITE® on-line computer back-up software and service.

Copyright (c) 2007-2011 Carbon Based Creations, LLC
I appreciate Rythal's work and thank him so much. I will not be updating this addon past his last version. If it becomes no longer compatible then I will just switch. Why? It bothers me that he made sure to contact the developer, asked for people to donate to the developer and never once claimed he made the addon yet the dev's a dickhead.

Last edited by ookamiashes : 09-10-12 at 05:49 PM. Reason: mispell
 
 

WoWInterface » Featured Projects » Carbonite » Carbonite Archive » I'm no longer supporting this add-on

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