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09-23-08, 02:08 AM   #21
Luciferul
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I'm sorry what happen to you but from >10mil people playing no wonder you stumble upon those king of ... rly dunno how to call them. I hoped the item colors would get it's meaning back in WotLK but looks like i was wrong. I think you have to live with it and fill up your ignore list
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09-23-08, 09:10 AM   #22
Gandoch
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Originally Posted by littlebuddha79 View Post
You do NOT need full epics to kill a lvl 73 elite
And I said as much.
Originally Posted by littlebuddha79 View Post
you do not need full epics to have you gear considered "not terrible"
Yes, you do. Full epics doesn't require a lot of raiding anymore. Hell, it doesn't require raiding at all. With the advent of Heroics and MASSIVE AMOUNTS of PvP gear you can get full epics just by... what was it, oh yeah, playing. Just like everyone else. I understand he was only 70 for two days, but if you aren't in full epics and your gear is easily replaced by simply running 5 mans and battlegrounds... it's bad. I don't know how else to put that.
Originally Posted by littlebuddha79 View Post
I'm not big on raiding (mostly due to the proliferation of attitudes like this), but I have been in Kara once and cleared the 1st boss.
Well aren't you the authority on raiding, then.
Originally Posted by littlebuddha79 View Post
At the time I was a MM/SV Hunter with most of my points in MM and SV to get improved traps. Me and another hunter in the raid were passing a mob back and forth in freezing traps to keep it out of the fight throughout all the pulls up to the boss, so I wasn't DPSing the entire time, and I still got TOP DPS in a raid full of players with full epics. All I had was 4 pieces of the Stalker Set(Blue) a couple other random blues from Auchidon, the PVP Crossbow and the lvl 62 engineering goggles(the only 2 purples I had). I'll admit that there were one or two others in the group that were fairly new to raiding as well but all had more experience than I did, and I still out DPS'd everyone there.
I'm pretty sure I never said that good gear makes a good player, I said people generally assume people with bad gear are inexperienced. Having epics clearly didn't stop anyone in "that group you ran Kara with that one time" from being horrible.

Gear doesn't make the player, but if you don't understand that it helps and that your character is limited by their stats, I don't know what to tell you.

Phanx: Thanks for not being an imbecile.
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09-23-08, 09:17 AM   #23
Nuchaleft
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Sometimes you can have all the gear in the world and still be a noob, I've seen huntards in full t6 who still don't know how to trap properly

sometimes you just have to step back and take a laugh
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09-23-08, 10:13 AM   #24
Elloria
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Originally Posted by Gandoch View Post
And I said as much. Yes, you do. Full epics doesn't require a lot of raiding anymore. Hell, it doesn't require raiding at all. With the advent of Heroics and MASSIVE AMOUNTS of PvP gear you can get full epics just by... what was it, oh yeah, playing. Just like everyone else. I understand he was only 70 for two days, but if you aren't in full epics and your gear is easily replaced by simply running 5 mans and battlegrounds... it's bad. I don't know how else to put that. Well aren't you the authority on raiding, then.I'm pretty sure I never said that good gear makes a good player, I said people generally assume people with bad gear are inexperienced. Having epics clearly didn't stop anyone in "that group you ran Kara with that one time" from being horrible.

Gear doesn't make the player, but if you don't understand that it helps and that your character is limited by their stats, I don't know what to tell you.

Phanx: Thanks for not being an imbecile.
Hey now lets not result in calling each other names. Really again your "view" on gear is messed up. That or you don't understand the meaning of the word terrible. Having all blues and a few epics does not mean you have terrible gear. Your gear may not be amazing but its not terrible. there are lots of blues that are better then some of these "so called epics". Also just because you can get epics in pvp doesnt mean they are good for raiding with. They have lots of crit stam and resilience. Which last time i checked isnt the best for pve(especially the resilience part)
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09-23-08, 10:58 AM   #25
Seerah
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Keep the discussions civil, please.

And, yes, I question some people's definition of the word "terrible" as well...


terrible (tĕr'ə-bəl)

adj.
  1. Causing great fear or alarm; dreadful: a terrible bolt of lightning; a terrible curse.
  2. Extremely formidable: terrible responsibilities.
  3. Extreme in extent or degree; intense: “the life for which he had paid so terrible a price” (Leslie Fiedler).
    1. Unpleasant; disagreeable: had a terrible time at the party; terrible food.
    2. Very bad: a terrible actor.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin terribilis, from terrēre, to frighten.]
terribleness ter'ri·ble·ness n.
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09-23-08, 11:25 AM   #26
Arabeth
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Originally Posted by Gandoch View Post
Nobody is obliged to take someone with them to do anything in this game.
Originally Posted by Arabeth View Post
If that were true, why do we have LFG??
Originally Posted by Phanx View Post
Listing yourself in the LFG tool does not obligate other people to invite you to their group or take you to an instance. Likewise, when you use the LFG tool to build a group, you are not obligated to bring any particular person who is listed therein.
Not a specific person, no. If you could play the entire game solo and not be obliged to "take someone with ... [you] ... to do anything in ...[the] ..game", then fair enough. As that is not the case, the original quote is both syntactically and semantically incorrect. Sorry to be pedantic!
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09-23-08, 07:33 PM   #27
GrissomXIX
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Originally Posted by Phanx View Post
Arena gear is generally terrible for PvE. I wouldn't touch it on my resto shaman with a ten-foot pole. I don't know why so many of you guys are making it sound like arena gear is the only thing in between dungeon blues and Sunwell epics. Badge gear anyone
Then you might be so kind as to explain that to 90% of arena kids who think because they have "full epics" that they can walk into any instance/raid they want and pwn the place sideways. And please, read what I say before you think that it's my opinion..."Unfortunately for most of the new 'arena generation' gear is what makes you good." Personally I'll take a skilled player in blues over a retard arena kid in full epics. Gear doesn't make the player, but for most people they think you have to have gear to be good, hence the reason for this post in the first place. I've seen Mages and Rogues in D3 and late 5-man gear obliterate fully epic'd Hunters and Rogues in raids because the fully epic'd people are LAZY and ARROGANT.

Gear != skill as is the underlying topic of the original post, we know this yet you want to argue that if you don't have the gear you can't be as good as someone who does. Granted as far as stats and specs go this is true. The true measure of a player is his or her ability to play their class to the fullest, not that of being able to farm BGs just to get a marginally better item to placate the arrogant and whiney. Find a group of players in your gear/raid range, ignore the rest of the children and have fun.

No one is raiding seriously right now except for those who have the instances on farm or those who just HAVE to fully progress. Everyone is mostly preparing for the expansion where a majority of the game will be on equal footing again where you can have "gear" just by doing the 10man versions of raid content with a handful of friends.

Ignore the jackasses like Gandoch who measure you by what you have rather than what you do and enjoy the remaining few weeks of TBC and max level, it'll be leveling time again soon.

Originally Posted by Phanx View Post
Why is your PvE raid inviting "Jeb the Arena Whore" in the first place? You'd probably have an easier time of it if you filled your raid with people who want to progress in PvE...
Maybe because we were short a raid member that night and we had to PUG or invite a member of the guild who PVPs instead of PVEs. But I suppose because he's not a full PVE player then he has no right filling a spot that needs to be filled, not every guild has 200 raid ready people sitting on the sidelines biting their nails waiting to get into The Eye or Sunwell. We keep what we need to get by, friends and alts are invited when absolutely necessary and some of them happen to be arena or BG geared. Doesn't make them a bad player, but they lack a little in PVE which the rest of the raid more than makes up for. But when you have someone fully epic'd who can't be bothered to trap properly or DPS/heal worth a damn, the rest of the raid is going to suffer regardless of gear level.

It doesn't take Sunwell or badge loot to kill the BRD boss which was the original post, but you guys are making it seem like having D3 or instance blues is the end of the world when fighting a level 73 boss in a dead and forgotten instance. This isn't Sunwell we're talking about, it's goddamn BRD. lol Cry about gear when people cry that they can't get into Sunwell with Kara or BG gear on.
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Last edited by GrissomXIX : 09-23-08 at 07:52 PM.
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09-23-08, 11:24 PM   #28
Kleo
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Careful about the generalisations that raid-epiced people are lazy and arrogant... Yes, they exist, yes, some blue-geared people are great, but in a raid guild worth being in, people have to watch their playing and continually earn their spot in raids. And they play accordingly. There are plenty of lesser geared people who are arrogant. Hell, there are even green-geared people who are arrogant, because they feel they're unfairly discriminated against and they think they're way better players than raiders (whether they are or not). Blues are fine after you just reach 70 in short to medium term, and you might be a great player, but the great players are probably going to do heroics and get better gear, or get crafted gear, and eventually get as much best-in-slot as they possibly can.

I guess I'm trying to say that most of the lazy/arrogant players in epics I've seen are either arena epics who think that PvP gear is just as good for PvE as PvE gear, or players who can get through Kara regularly in a pug, and then think they're great because they have purples. Tier 6 players (especially Sunwell) have to earn their spots and may be arrogant, but not so much on the lazy, and tend to play well and expect a lot from their groups. And contribute to those groups.
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09-24-08, 01:32 AM   #29
GrissomXIX
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All well and good, but to be a prick about not having full epics for a level 73 elite is ridiculous and the people defending that stance are equally ridiculous. It's not like he was asking to get into a Sunwell group, he wanted to do a daily quest that people in greens can do successfully yet got shunned because he's not 'geared' enough. I would expect people in high end raids to be well geared, attentive and good because you're not progressing with a raid of lazy people, but to shun someone for a level 73 elite is retarded.
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09-24-08, 02:41 AM   #30
Elpis
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WoW is different for all. Some people like to do 10 heroics a day, only to get that certain drop. If you like playing like that its your choice. Others like to play just for the social side, have a laugh, a chat do the odd dungeon. Who are people here to judge other players ??? Just because they want something different out the game. I remember we was running the heroic dungeons in some blues/greens when TBC came out. At the time (before all got nerfed) you needed at least 1 healer and one offhealer in your group. The gear wasnt just up to it to have 1 healer. I have run loads of instances with the most weird group compositions. Its FUN. You wipe loads but hey, you have a laugh a chat and try again. It seems now all too much people are colour fixated. Just taking an item because it is purple while the blue they are wearing is better. Live and let live. And maybe you will get some fun in wow and get less obsessed
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09-24-08, 08:44 AM   #31
Gandoch
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Originally Posted by Gandoch View Post
No, you don't need 4pc T6 and Sunwell offset pieces to do the boss, you don't even need S1 PvP gear, but you do have terrible gear, and people generally assume that people with terrible gear only have terrible gear because they don't put the time or effort into the character required to get even moderately decent gear and as such, don't have any idea what they're doing.
I really feel like nobody read my first post.

When there are basically ten levels of level 70 epic gear (S1, S2, S3, Heroic, Badge 1, Tier 4, Tier 5, Badge 2, Tier 6, Sunwell Offset) and you're in blues and greens, your gear is awful. This point is really not disputable. Yes, there are some really good blues (I wore Quag's Eye well into SSC), but typically, even the god awful arena gear that I hate seeing people is still better than most blues and all these "of the Eagle" greens Arabeth is obsessed with. (157 Spell Damage at 70? Really?)

I love how all the casuals think they're the only people who know how to play and they can out DPS all their "fully epic'ed" acquaintances, but the hardcore raiders are the arrogant ones.

Pot, Kettle called. He says you're black.

Ignore the jackasses like me who measure you by what you have rather than what you do becase there is no correlation whatsoever between the things you've accomplished and what you have to show for it.
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09-24-08, 09:56 AM   #32
Rigorous
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Originally Posted by Gandoch View Post
I really feel like nobody read my first post.
i did. i'm still trying to decide if it was more or less arrogant than your last one. you are so blinded by your own uber-ness that you just don't get it.

you have, in my opinion, provided irrefutable proof of the whole point of the thread.
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09-24-08, 12:18 PM   #33
Gandoch
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Originally Posted by Rigorous View Post
you have, in my opinion, provided irrefutable proof of the whole point of the thread.
Rofl, you're neat.
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09-24-08, 02:35 PM   #34
Arabeth
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Originally Posted by Gandoch View Post
... even the god awful arena gear that I hate seeing people is still better than most blues and all these "of the Eagle" greens Arabeth is obsessed with. (157 Spell Damage at 70? Really?)

I love how all the casuals think they're the only people who know how to play and they can out DPS all their "fully epic'ed" acquaintances, but the hardcore raiders are the arrogant ones.

Ignore the jackasses like me who measure you by what you have rather than what you do becase there is no correlation whatsoever between the things you've accomplished and what you have to show for it.
I am glad you did your research into me! There is a reason 'beth is specced that way, which owes nothing to gear obsession. I've soloed 98% of the way to 70 and used that kind of gear to max out my HP/Mana with zero effort. I have seen epics that didn't match some of the greens 'beth's wearing!! (in base stats anyway)

I am a casual player. I work, family and soclialise without a toon in sight and couldn't give time to raid or even 5 man stuff. It would be useless for me to part of a guild that wanted people who could give that time. I don't have acquaintances to out DPS their epics and couldn't care.

I am intrigued by your last sentence though. I am sure there are people who are going "If only..." but, and maybe this is just a matter of the way you have written it, while you dis my gear and my character as being rubbish, you still manage to conclude in such a way as contradicts that. Plus; if you understand the last part of your sentence, why do insist on adhering to the first part; that of being a jackass who only sees the gear? I am a little unsure TBH if that is an admission or simply sarcasm.

Anyway, I agree wholeheatedly with Elpis.
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09-24-08, 02:48 PM   #35
GrissomXIX
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I'm far from a casual player since I've been playing faithfully since game launch and I raid regularly with my guild every week so don't just assume the casuals are the only ones of this opinion. I have gear to show for what I've done through the 40s in MC, BWL and Naxx, into Kara, SSC and Mags. I carry 2 sets of full epic gear for PVP and PVE, but I wouldn't sit there and profess to tell someone that their gear is terrible just because they don't have full epics, badge gear or not. Blatantly telling someone their gear is terrible is arrogant and ignorant. People have what they have because they have to have it or are only able to get it. You see the mentality is becoming that if you don't have gear to make things easier for the group, you aren't worth taking to an instance (like a 73 elite) or even a heroic. So tell me Gandoch the all-knowing, how are people supposed to get badge gear when they can't get an invite to a heroic? How are people supposed to get PVP gear when they can't win a battleground because their faction on their battlegroup sucks?

I had to fight and claw and prove myself on my character to have what I have, and we all started wearing a mix of BOE greens and quest blues, it's the arrogant and self-serving people like you who make it difficult for the newly 70 to get groups to get this 'good gear' you want them to have. If a 70 in mixed blues and greens can't output enough DPS or healing to get through a level 73 elite in a full 5 person group, then yes...calling them out is justified. But taking a single look at their gear before the boss and branding them useless is ignorant no matter what way you try to justify it.
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