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08-24-09, 03:35 PM   #61
Yhor
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Originally Posted by lanacan View Post
The only thing I don't like is that I have to work my butt off now that I've gone back after 4 years to playing Horde and I want to get all teh achievements done i can in the "old world" before this x-pac comes out....


the problem is that Full time work and School and non-gaming Girl Friend make that hard as hell to do

Quit your job and tell your girl friend she has to put her feelings on hold (and pay your rent/bills) until you've finished your objectives. That's the most logical solution (too bad girls don't normally follow logic, huh?).

/jest
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08-24-09, 03:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
Quit your job and tell your girl friend she has to put her feelings on hold (and pay your rent/bills) until you've finished your objectives. That's the most logical solution (too bad girls don't normally follow logic, huh?).

/jest
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08-24-09, 07:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Cralor View Post
I think and hope you will enjoy it when it is released, us2006027321.
To be fair, I did not initially look at WoW as something I would ever enjoy in the first place. I have been pleasantly surprised at what I've enjoyed thus far, and I look forward to being pleasantly surprised in the future. Thank you for the encouragement.
Originally Posted by Cralor View Post
Why should I have to go to a website such as www.elitistjerks.com to find out which will benefit me more? I have to find out if 10 Agility or 20 AP is better. Also, I shouldn't need to download EnhSim and Rawr to find out if my DPS will increase with a different combination of gear or weapon changes. "Agility is good for my class so that is one of the gems I will use". I don't see why this is a bad thing.
I have always spent a good deal of time on WoWWiki before I play any class researching what stats will most effectively benefit me and how. I rarely listen to what EJ has to say, and it has allowed me to learn quite a bit about the game. WoWWiki + time at the combat dummies = me learning a ton about the game. If I know why Intellect is good for me as a Mage, why Agility is better than Strength for me as a Marksman Hunter, or why Spirit is better for me as a Druid, it doesn't matter what the game or anyone else tells me; I have experience learning it for myself, and chances are high that I'm going to remember it and be able to explain it to others rather than trust that the game or some website didn't inadvertently lead me down the road to second-best.
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08-24-09, 10:40 PM   #64
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Of course it's just knowing the stat that works for you, but it honestly shouldn't be something hard enough where after an expansion you people theory crafting to see what the best stat is now for that class. I think the stat changes will help make things more intuitive and just overall easier to handle.
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08-24-09, 11:23 PM   #65
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I agree with Cralor on this one as well. As gearing progresses or for respecs, stat "weights" can change radically for many classes, and they often change after patches as well. Frankly, it gets confusing (or just a big pain in the rump to deal with) at times, even for someone like me who enjoys theorycrafting. What's worse, it often renders current gearing significantly less desirable when changes like that happen. As an example, look at what happened to the BiS list for raiding mages when Molten Armor was changed to improve with spirit.

While I know those types of changes won't ever really stop, reducing how often that could happen should be possible by implementing a more-straightforward stat "value" system. It also simplifies a multitude of itemisation complexities that we see in the current world of "stat bloat" with regards to item budgets and determining loot tables that can support all classes/specs.
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08-25-09, 04:05 AM   #66
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Simplifying stats does not solve the problem of gear diversity and it certainly will not stop BiS lists, as long as Blizzard tends to release 'gear me up' patches as unimaginative as the Coliseum. The change is being done purely for the purposes of spending less development time on itemization. Does anyone here honestly believe that regeneration or let's say int-to-spellpower conversion formulas will be become less "complicated" in Cataclysm ? I'm willing to bet that they will become even more complex, or worse there will be multiple formulas for the conversion of a simple stat to something more meaningful.
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08-25-09, 10:34 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
Simplifying stats does not solve the problem of gear diversity and it certainly will not stop BiS lists, as long as Blizzard tends to release 'gear me up' patches as unimaginative as the Coliseum. The change is being done purely for the purposes of spending less development time on itemization. Does anyone here honestly believe that regeneration or let's say int-to-spellpower conversion formulas will be become less "complicated" in Cataclysm ? I'm willing to bet that they will become even more complex, or worse there will be multiple formulas for the conversion of a simple stat to something more meaningful.
That is a good point, but would we really need to know that information as widely as we do now when we can just say "Intellect gives me mana and spellpower so that is what I need". For example, I will no longer need to know if I should get 20 AP or 10Agility. Agility would be the only choice there.
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08-25-09, 11:34 AM   #68
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That will depend on the conversion formula, although I believe that considering the design of current items (for instance let's have a look at Staff of Endless Winter and Starshard Edge) , intellect will probably work in some sort of multiplicative way or perhaps items will have coefficients depending on let's say slot type and/or iLvl. That is assuming that Blizzard does not intend to totally "break compatibility" with the current design and rework ALL the "old" items with spellpower, AP, ArP and whatnot (personally I see it as too much needless work). Then there is also the matter of int to mana conversion to consider. You can't just give players endless amounts of int or you risk making mana a non-issue, unless you also adjust the spell costs and maybe damage output accordingly (at which point gg really, since you might need to rework old encounters to take these into considerations too, if you care enough not to break them entirely). Again, I would expect some sort of gimmicky formula to balance things out. All in all, I wouldn't throw the "spreadsheets" to the recycle bin just yet As stated before, Cataclysm was just announced. We have no idea when exactly it's going to be released (considering the amount of changes I wouldn't hold my breath for the next 6 months to say the least) or even if *all* the recently announced changes will be valid until that time.
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08-25-09, 12:03 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
Simplifying stats does not solve the problem of gear diversity and it certainly will not stop BiS lists, as long as Blizzard tends to release 'gear me up' patches as unimaginative as the Coliseum. The change is being done purely for the purposes of spending less development time on itemization. Does anyone here honestly believe that regeneration or let's say int-to-spellpower conversion formulas will be become less "complicated" in Cataclysm ? I'm willing to bet that they will become even more complex, or worse there will be multiple formulas for the conversion of a simple stat to something more meaningful.
I certainly don't think it solves the problems you've mentioned or stops BiS lists, but it does make some inroads into keeping those things from becoming obsolete at the drop of a hat, or patch. There have been MANY changes where certain stats have become "suddenly useful" when they hadn't been on the radar at all before. Will that go away? Probably not. Will it happen as often as it has/could in a system with as many secondary stats as we have now? It shouldn't.

As for gear diversity, it does address it a bit, but doesn't go so far as to solve problems like the "poster child" spell power plate issue. Cloth, on the other hand, is likely to see less variation than it currently has since stats like spirit and mp5 have such radically different weights in live currently across cloth-wearing/using classes. Many armour types probably won't see much change (caster mail and plate), but cloth is seriously bloated right now and caster leather suffers almost from too little variation (+hit caster leather anyone?). There are some issues left to solve from a stat weight standpoint to make this all work in reality, but it's a start. I also agree that it simplifies Blizzard's work when it comes to itemising gear, but that's not a bad thing to me (to some it is, I'm sure).

No, I don't see the formulas becoming less complicated when it comes to knowing exactly how much dps/hps/whatever a certain stat is worth. This type of stat simplification isn't really meant to obsolete those concepts either. The people who enjoy theorycrafting and planning their gear acquisitions out at every step (myself included) will continue to do that and have plenty of leeway to do so. Those that don't, however, will at least be confronted by less ambiguity with the general end-worth of a stat, which is what I believe is the goal (you have no idea how many times per day I have to answer questions from disc priests about spirit vs. mp5; if answering those gets reduced, my fingers will be happy).

I can't really explain what I mean very well, for some reason...think I'm still too tired I guess we'll have to see just how far-reaching the changes are and just how much class redesign comes out of this. I have a few concerns with stat/effect scaling under a simplified system, personally, but the concept has me curious enough to see how it all works out.
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08-25-09, 06:40 PM   #70
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Tanks will still tank. Healers will still heal. Dps will still dps. The classes will maintain their same overall basic feel (you know, like, since the beginning of the game). None of this theorycrafting gets anyone anywhere except it does give nerds a platform for their voice (not talking about anyone here, but the actual theorycrafting sites).

Blizzard is micromanaging crap that doesn't need to be changed. I've always played several different characters (paladin, warrior, dk, shaman, druid, hunter mostly), and to be honest, they all still feel "basically the same" as they did when I first installed the game about 4 months (roughly) after its release. The only "significant" change I can think of from where I come from is that paladins now have more viability as raid choices. While we were once only healers, we can tank and dps now. There may be some other changes I've liked, but nothing major. Still, Blizzard constantly micromanages and refunds talent points. Why do they do it? Are they trying to distract us from lack of real development and bug fixes? (go make a hunter and you'll see some glitches that have existed since the beginning)

I'm tired of class mechanics and focus on miniscule changes being substituted for real development and progress. Nothing needs to be changed. Even if these things are changed, the same basic roles will be performed in the same basic methods. Who cares if someone's heals give me 10% or 8% mana regen? I still have the same role to perform.

Does anyone else agree with me that there's an enormous amount of distraction from real problems/issues/bugs? Why don't we put the OCD player talent developers onto something like fixing hunter glitches? realm stability? login queues? instance launch problems? Or better yet, get the kid that thinks 24 new vanity pets per patch increases his job security and assign him to solving the gold spam problem or something useful.

/still tired of the direction things are going

I'd trade all the development planned for someone to fix the fact my pet has a random amount of health every time he is summoned (yes, the health bonus is very moody and only likes to be applied "some of the time"). I'd also like an explanation about why he takes such a huge health hit during the summoning/desummoning process.
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08-25-09, 07:07 PM   #71
Yhor
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I can agree with most of what you're saying, Republic. My biggest frustration in the game has been the constant barrage of changes over the years to things that should be left alone. And WHEN they DO plan changes, do NOT put it on live and then toy around with it for months... or even years, in regards to a character's talents, skill mechanics, itemization... etc. That just blows any immersion into a character a person may have (when I'm raiding or just playing the game, I like to feel as though it is ME inside the dungeon killing bosses, not a conglomerate of pixels). When they do their constant changes, it just ruins that, for me.

As for the expansion, any expansion, they should get it right in beta before releasing to live. At least in terms of talents, skills, and gear... world bugs are to be expected, but I can't see any excuse for constant changes to classes just because Blizz can't make everyone happy.
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08-25-09, 09:13 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
As for the expansion, any expansion, they should get it right in beta before releasing to live.
Where have you been? World of Warcraft, last I checked, follows the Google(TM) definition of Beta - which is, by the way, "perpetual".
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08-25-09, 09:29 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
Where have you been? World of Warcraft, last I checked, follows the Google(TM) definition of Beta - which is, by the way, "perpetual".
Originally Posted by Yhor View Post

As for the expansion, any expansion, they should get it right in beta before releasing to live. At least in terms of talents, skills, and gear... world bugs are to be expected, but I can't see any excuse for constant changes to classes just because Blizz can't make everyone happy.
Please don't rip me out of context. My statement refers mostly to "class balance" issues that Blizzard half ass makes attempts at bandaging, in order to try making everyone happy. The more often they change class mechanics, the less happy the player base is... as a whole. If they were to act with any foresight what-so-ever, they could avoid 50-75% of the negative feedback. This has little to nothing to do with the definition of Beta.
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08-26-09, 12:06 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
Where have you been? World of Warcraft, last I checked, follows the Google(TM) definition of Beta - which is, by the way, "perpetual".
In truth, I think the only practical difference between the words "beta" and "release" with regard to gaming and game development is the author(s) wanting to escape accountability until he conquers his sloth that is preventing him from fixing a problem.

In this sense, the word beta should realistically be defined as "the user of this software should maintain lower expectations in order to optimize the experience".
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08-26-09, 02:27 AM   #75
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So far I've read very few reasons as to why "change is bad". The majority of the class changes I find have been for the better, for example Living Bomb being castable on more than 1 target is a good example, and I very much doubt the small class changes they make with each patch will make any kind of huge dent in development time (unlike the April Fools Jokes which can often take up years of development)
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08-26-09, 02:54 PM   #76
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You guys are talking about changes to things like Hunter pets and their random health...

You know what I am hoping... praying... begging the Creator... happens?

I WANT THEM TO F*CKING L2TERRAIN MAP SO BLINK WORKS PROPERLY!!

I maintain that the issue isn't in the coding of the Blink spell itself but in the fact that they can't map terrain to save themselves. While they're busy overhauling Azeroth, why don't they go ahead and handle that, eh?
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08-26-09, 04:28 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
Please don't rip me out of context.
Bah. I wasn't ripping you out of context, I simply failed to make it obvious that I was making a joke.
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08-26-09, 05:51 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
Bah. I wasn't ripping you out of context, I simply failed to make it obvious that I was making a joke.

I fail at joke recognition, especially around WoW tech speak.

Sorry if I seemed upset, I get over most things pretty fast (and nearly edited that post a few times to be more 'nice'). But, now knowing it was a joke, I get it!
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08-26-09, 07:18 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by us2006027321 View Post
You guys are talking about changes to things like Hunter pets and their random health...

You know what I am hoping... praying... begging the Creator... happens?

I WANT THEM TO F*CKING L2TERRAIN MAP SO BLINK WORKS PROPERLY!!

I maintain that the issue isn't in the coding of the Blink spell itself but in the fact that they can't map terrain to save themselves. While they're busy overhauling Azeroth, why don't they go ahead and handle that, eh?
This is also why pets have a mind of their own sometimes, even when you don't expect it. Sometimes the mapping/pathing is so horrible that the pet actually looks like it's having a seizure when you give it the attack command. These are all bugs that need to be fixed. As I said before, they need to put energy into fixing real issues and ignore micromanaging talents.
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