Quantcast Carbonite Quest - WoWInterface
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02-14-08, 08:33 PM   #1
Tweeker
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Carbonite Quest

I seriously doubt anyone here is going to like this opinion:

Modding and addons are done by nice people, smart people. They are submitted for free, and give the author a sense of pride for many reasons, releasing something that will help others. Also for having their name on a mod that tons of people use.

This basic concept has kept the addons free from the very beginning. We let a mod in that REQUIRES PAYMENT for the full feature of an addon, then everyone will be crippling their work and only releasing teaser addons!

Let's take Mazzle UI, or for that matter Fubar and even ACE ..... Lets say they employed the same money making tactics.

Now that we are all hooked on these great addons that we have come to adore and rely on, just think if we now had to shell out XX dollars per month/year for their "full" useage.

This is where it starts.

I myself just got hit with a separate window pop upon entering wowinterface.com. Now this i can understand, they have costs to host this site and I'm certain the developers and site admins have more important things to do for free. I believe they all deserve a few clicks here and there, and even upgrade the account, make a donation in the amount of your choice.

That being said, I am going to remove my portal and delete my addons from being downloaded until i get an email at [email protected] stating that this addon here has been banned from wowinterface.com.

I understand I'm not going to get what I ask for, so this is good bye for me, off to find or CREATE a place that does not permit the futuristic thrashing of the addon world as we know it.

Rodger
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02-14-08, 09:21 PM   #2
Dreadlorde
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It's Ace, not ACE.

RDX was only an addon you had to buy for a while; there's an article about it on phanxs' website.

And what exactly is carbonite quest doing that you don't like?
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02-14-08, 09:37 PM   #3
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Can you explain more? Every addon here is free to use... is Carbonite Quest requiring some type of payment to use? I dont see any advertisements stateing you need to buy something on it unless its in game only (have not used it in game)?

Might wanna let us know if theres something fishy with Carbonite Quest instead of an ultimatum of pull it or your leaving. I think we have proven over the past we want to protect the addon community and authors. I'm sure some solution can be found.

edit: Also if you recieved a popup ad can you let me know what it was for? There should be no pop up ads on this site, some times they sneak in embedded into flash ads.

Last edited by Dolby : 02-14-08 at 09:55 PM.
 
02-14-08, 09:49 PM   #4
Flarin
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I for one support this type of model. I am willing to pay for excellent mods that are updated. For information on this mod, the free version and the pay version, go http://www.carboniteaddon.com/default.aspx.

The way it works is when you pay a subscription price for the website you get a download link for the full version of the mod. The mod then does some validation when you log in with the registered player/realm - the mod is then open for ANY of your toons on ANY realm. This Carbonite Quest release is meant to have you test out a big part of the mod, and see if you like it. If you don't - great - don't pay. If you do, either live with the limited version or come to the site and pay.

I think if MORE developers tool this stance if would be BETTER for the modding community. There is NOTHING WRONG for someone getting paid for their hard work. The mod in question is a working mod, there is no nag screen or anything, but it is part of a larger mod package that you need to subscribe to a website to download. Carbonite Quest is a standalone mod trying to entice you to be thirsty for more.

I am not affliliated with the developers at all, I am just a happy customer. The mod is very cool and for me let's me substitute a BUNCH of mods that I use.

I found this link on the Carbonite site. I thought the thread was interesting - it discusses the legailty of charging for mods.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...81825791&sid=1
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Last edited by Flarin : 02-14-08 at 09:57 PM.
 
02-14-08, 10:06 PM   #5
Seerah
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Tweeker, I was hoping that this was resolved the other night in the Carbonite Quest comments section. I'm sorry to see that it wasn't.

Here is a thread from the WoW forums about the Carbonite for-pay version. I highly advise that you read it, as it goes over the points that I tried to make, but in more detail. http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...81825791&sid=1

For-pay addons are completely legit. It does not go against Blizzard's EULA or ToS to charge for an addon you create. Blizzard only owns the rights to its game code and any items/characters therein. Authors own the rights to their addon code, and may put it under whatever license they wish.

The only reason why you see so little for-pay addons, is because 1. that requires that the author keep up with updates, fixes, etc, as they have that responsibility by charging users for the addon and 2. because there is so much free stuff around. But anything you find that gets charged for is first-rate. It has to be - otherwise, no one would be willing to pay for it.



Now, about the Carbonite Quest mod hosted here on this site.

Before I made my second post in the Carbonite Quest comments section, I brought your concerns to the rest of the staff. Our consensus was that Carbonite Quest does exactly what it says it does. There is no mention on the download page that it is a few features from the for-pay version, and it is not the old trial, which limited you to 30-days usage.

It is its own mod. You can use it for however long you want to, and never need to pay for the other features. If you *want* the other features that come with the for-pay mod, then you can either pay for it, or substitute other mods for those features. But nowhere are you forced to pay, or asked to pay.



As for your concerns...

If Carbonite Quest was solely an advertisement for the for-pay version, then that would be a different story. But it's not. It is a fully-functional quest database mod that operates on its own.

Authors are free to do whatever they wish with their code. They may license it so that they own all rights to the addon, or release it into the public domain. Or even in-between, where people may make derivative works. An author has every right to charge for their work. See my two reasons above for why you don't see it very often.

There are people on each side of this debate. Some see it as ethical, like you. But that is just your opinion. You create addons for free, but you are not free to force that opinion on others.

This addon does what it says it does, and does not require you to pay for anything. It will be allowed to remain on this site. If anyone wants to download it, they are free to. If they don't, then they won't. I'm sorry to see you go, Tweek.
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02-14-08, 10:08 PM   #6
Sepioth
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I talked about this addon on it's comments page and said my peace there.

One thing I just found out and REALLY don't like is they way the "corrupt" the LUA file so nobody but them can read it.

I know this is done to "protect" their work (or possibly hide their code theft)...

Who's to say that the waypoint system was not ripped directly from Cartographer ... word for word ??

Either way I don't like it. If an author wants monetary compensation for their work then put up a PayPal Donation Link. I think WoW addons should be made for the love of the game and the love of the community ... not monetary gain.


Seerah you point out that thread on the WoW forums. I don't visit them much but I though official posts where from "Blue's" ?? .. .all I see are Green (forum mods??) and normal white. I see no official blue posts there.

Sorry Seerah to open my mouth again ... I'm done this time I swear.

Last edited by Sepioth : 02-14-08 at 10:14 PM.
 
02-14-08, 10:14 PM   #7
Shirik
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Originally Posted by Sepioth View Post
One thing I just found out and REALLY don't like is they way the "corrupt" the LUA file so nobody but them can read it.
I feel obligated to point out two things:

(1) Lua is not an acronym; it is a Portugese word that means "moon." (Sorry, Lua's on a "Write Lua Right" campaign and I'm pitching in )

(2) It's not really possible to "corrupt" it, only obfuscate it (make it difficult to read). If it were corrupt, WoW wouldn't read it Thus, someone with enough knowledge and time should be able to pull it apart. I'm not saying I advocate this behavior, nor am I saying that any "deciphered" versions would ever be allowed on this site (because they wouldn't unless the original author were to agree -- they're still the same code), but I am saying it's possible.

-- Shirik
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02-14-08, 10:24 PM   #8
Seerah
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Originally Posted by Sepioth View Post
Seerah you point out that thread on the WoW forums. I don't visit them much but I though official posts where from "Blue's" ?? .. .all I see are Green (forum mods??) and normal white. I see no official blue posts there.
Flarin linked the same thread. And you're right - Blizzard posters are Blue. But does that make it any less true? Or do I need to go and dig up a blue post? Or is it that you're just being argumentative?

Here's part of our discussion on irc from Monday night:
(22:33:38) (+Seerah) Blizzard has stated that for-pay mods are legit
(22:33:49) (@Cairenn) of course they are legit
(22:33:54) (+Seerah) the code belongs to the author - it's not like selling items
(22:34:10) (@Cairenn) exactly
(22:34:10) (+Seerah) if an author wants to charge for use of their code, it's their prerogative.
(22:34:17) (@Cairenn) yup
(22:35:54) (+Shirik) (22:33:38) (+Seerah) Blizzard has stated that for-pay mods are legit
(22:36:14) (+Shirik) what they state is irrelevant :P They've released their code into the public domain and granted access to use the API
(22:36:30) (+Shirik) It's been upheld in court (see GPL cases) that an addon and WoW will be considered two separate addons
(22:36:37) (+Shirik) er, two separate programs
(22:36:40) (@Cairenn) Shirik: you're arguing the same point
(22:36:44) (+Shirik) I know I'm just saying
(22:36:45) (+Seerah) yeah
(22:36:54) (@Cairenn) she said ARE legit, not are NOT legit
(22:37:10) (+Shirik) yeah I'm just saying... even if they didn't say that :P They can't choose
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02-14-08, 10:26 PM   #9
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That excerpt doesn't paint a very nice picture of me I'm not like that, really!!
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たしかにひとつのじだいがおわるのお
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It's my turn next.

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02-14-08, 10:30 PM   #10
Tweeker
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Glad to know I am not alone in my feelings. It is really saddening, (honestly)..
I love this site and what it's stood for from day one. Now THIS addon has trampled on things I thought this site stood for.

What's wrong with a donation link? It seems to work for everyone else?

This is the first mod (addon) I have EVER seen approved by this site that is crippled!

By crippled i mean this:
1) - It is NOT the full version.
2) - Addon authors can NOT edit it for personal use, nor use it's code.
3) - Payment IS "required" to utilize the full (real) version that this one is
meant to entice you into paying for.
4) - Much like the very first lick of an ice cream, you ARE going to want
another lick. So pull out that wallet, cause the choice to donate is no
longer yours.

Since playing WoW, this has been my main 'hang out' for many reasons, mainly due to the admins of the site. The morals they pratice when envoking a rule. Their keen sense of judgement when it comes to approve or deny a post,upload,avatar,signature,etc.
Having downloaded some pretty foul ui's, software and addons from other
sites in the past, I hung my hat on the wowinterface.com door and made this my "home".. Every now and again, i will go and have a look see at a few other places that host forums and addons, nothing else comes close to the quality maintained here by the users, authors, and admins..

UNTIL NOW

I Own a few wow related domains, they are empty... and yes i am upset enough to put tons of work into one and make it spring to life, but I for one do not have the time. I can only silently pray that this addon, and others in the future with the same logic, get banned and stay banned.

Rodger

-edit-
Please dont turn this into a business resource, can't we keep it the way it has been?
Imagine what comes in the next 6 months if this one gets to stay. Take a few minutes before you reply, and please... imagine it.
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Last edited by Tweeker : 02-14-08 at 10:35 PM.
 
02-14-08, 10:52 PM   #11
Sepioth
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Originally Posted by Seerah View Post
Flarin linked the same thread. And you're right - Blizzard posters are Blue. But does that make it any less true? Or do I need to go and dig up a blue post? Or is it that you're just being argumentative?

Here's part of our discussion on irc from Monday night:

No wasn't trying to be argumentative .. sorry to come across that way.

Though I'm not saying what was in that thread was untrue I would have just liked to see an official blue post .. but please don't waste the time digging it up if it exists .. I believe the legality of the right to make an add-on a pay-2-use. Just well as I said before ... don't agree with it.
 
02-14-08, 11:36 PM   #12
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I don't see what's wrong with the model. This is pure speculation, but working on Carbonite might be the creator's day job. Unlike a someone who does this for a hobby, he is taking a financial risk, but is also creating a product that (maybe) is better than the competition, and he was willing to bank on that. Why should he not be rewarded for his work if people choose to pay?

It's your mod, you choose what you want to do with it. It's my money, I choose what I want to do with it.

I choose not to pay for this mod, and that's that. It's not my place to tell others that they can't.
 
02-14-08, 11:38 PM   #13
Tweeker
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Originally Posted by Falcon213 View Post
I don't see what's wrong with the model. This is pure speculation, but working on Carbonite might be the creator's day job. Unlike a someone who does this for a hobby, he is taking a financial risk, but is also creating a product that (maybe) is better than the competition, and he was willing to bank on that. Why should he not be rewarded for his work if people choose to pay?

It's your mod, you choose what you want to do with it. It's my money, I choose what I want to do with it.

I choose not to pay for this mod, and that's that. It's not my place to tell others that they can't.
Then tell him to take his "day job" to a less respectable place, that's all i'm saying.
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02-14-08, 11:55 PM   #14
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Okay guys, here's the deal:

a) The mod that is hosted on this site states that it does X. It does do X. It isn't gimped in any way;
b) There is nothing in the file description on the site that says that this mod is "for pay" or anything else;
c) It doesn't pop up any sort of nag in-game

The ONLY thing that this mod has is a simple line in a read-me file that you have to deliberately and manually check that tells you that they have *additional* files available which are "for pay".

It does absolutely nothing that violates any of Blizzard's rules, rules of this site or breaks any law. If it did, we wouldn't allow it. You guys know us well enough by now to know that.

Whether people like the idea of "for pay" mods or not is a subject of much heated debate and opinion,. There is just as much debate about authors that have donation buttons on their download description pages/in their read-me files. But the fact is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

The author of Carbonite Quest has as much right to use this site for the distribution of his free mods as anyone else does.

Tweeker, I'm sorry to see you go and I wish you would reconsider, but we have honoured your request and removed your mods from the site.
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02-15-08, 06:50 AM   #15
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I just want to add my humble opinion about this topic as I believe in the power of democracy and the simple philosophy of economic supply and demand. What I mean by that is that if an author posts a mod for free but has other parts of it which he/she wishes to charge for, there would be no reason for him/her to do this and spend the time on it in the future if nobody buys it. The incentive in marketing strategy is lost if it doesn't work... let's just practice the simple laws of common sense and let the democratic principles we all believe in do their job. Most mods already have an option to acquire info as to how to make donations to it's respective author and this is really no different imo. If you don't like a product... don't buy it. If you don't like a mod or practices of it's respective author... just don't download it. The rest will take care of itself.

Tweeker I understand how you feel but wish you'd reconsider... we can make a stand as a community and work together to see that this practice doesn't continue if the majority doesn't wish it to.
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02-15-08, 07:18 AM   #16
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I think we will possibly see the true spirit of the intentions from the addon developer once several patches have taken place and he 1) continues to update Carbonite quest for free.. or 2) will charge for any future updates. If he is in business to make money, i forsee the second option eventually...
Thats my 2cp for what its not worth
 
02-15-08, 07:34 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tweeker View Post
This is the first mod (addon) I have EVER seen approved by this site that is crippled!

By crippled i mean this:
1) - It is NOT the full version.
2) - Addon authors can NOT edit it for personal use, nor use it's code.
3) - Payment IS "required" to utilize the full (real) version that this one is
meant to entice you into paying for.
4) - Much like the very first lick of an ice cream, you ARE going to want
another lick. So pull out that wallet, cause the choice to donate is no
longer yours.
1) The version released on this site is free, and full to the extent that's been made available. Enough people have commented...it does what it does.
2) ANY addon author can request their work not edited for personal use...and go to measures to ensure that their source is protected legally. Free or for-pay addons.
3) Payment -is not- required...you can use the version hosted by WoWI for free, with no pressure to purchase the version the author has available "for-pay".
4) This is a personal issue that should not be related to the argument at hand. You cannot claim that WoWI is going against their motto & rules that have been in place since the sites conception simply because you feel that you won't be able to live without the full version after taking a peek at the free version allowed here.

To remind you, Mazzle (prior to ending direct development on MazzleUI) optioned hosting a pay-for site that would use member site subscriptions to fund future development and upkeep of the addon. Regardless of it going through or not, it's not ill-conceived to believe that hard-working source programmers that intentionally try to enhance WoW UI elements to an extent that Carbonite does do not have the right to retain portions of their programming work and make them available on a pay-for basis. It's their choice & right. Demanding that it isn't and that it's wrong puts you in a rather disrespectful position.

Originally Posted by Tweeker View Post
I Own a few wow related domains, they are empty... and yes i am upset enough to put tons of work into one and make it spring to life, but I for one do not have the time. I can only silently pray that this addon, and others in the future with the same logic, get banned and stay banned.
WoWI will not ban the addon they host. They can't, because it doesn't request, or stress any need, for payment for the full version. And if you do take the time to build such a website, it may better help you understand the need or desire for compensation for the time, effort, and energy you put into that project.
 
02-15-08, 10:55 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Pester View Post
or 2) will charge for any future updates. If he is in business to make money, i forsee the second option eventually...
And if that were to happen, the mod would no longer be hosted here. As it stands though, there is no reason for us to remove it.
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02-15-08, 11:56 AM   #19
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My Opinion

Could 2 programmers quit their full time game programming jobs and work on an addon 40-60 hours a week for 9 months and live off of donations? I'm certain they couldn't. We have spent a large amount of money developing this addon and think it is only fair that we get paid. Sure we could of stayed at our jobs and worked on this on the weekends and it would have 25% of the features it has now.

How many addons get abandoned in their lifetime? I've been playing WOW for 3 years now and have had several addons go belly up on me or switch authors. They have no major incentive to continue work after they get bored. They have no obligation to the user. Questhelper was already abandoned 2 months after it was first released and picked up by a different person.

You can say it is crippled. The same way Visual Studio Express, Kerio Personal Firewall, AntiVir Personal Edition or many other software items are crippled. I use Kerio and AntiVir for free and they work great, but want more features in Visual Studio, so I pay for it.

I use Auctioneer and switched to their "Advanced" version a few months back. It is a great addon, but like most things, I like some of what they changed and disliked other changes. I could contact them and say "do it my way", but I don't. I'm nobody to them and they don't owe me anything. I bet if they all quit their jobs and did nothing else, it would be done faster and even cooler.

Bottom line is people are paying us to write an addon, so we care and are obligated. We spend more time working on the addons than most if not all other addon authors. In the last 5 weeks I've personally posted 251 times in our forums, answered dozens of email and posts on other forums. We listen to our customers as reading our forums will show. I have 21 items on my todo list, most of which were requested by customers. We have released a total of 9 updates to our 2 addons in the last 5 weeks and will continue to do so. Our price is very affordable. Don't eat out for lunch one time and you would have the money for 6 months of Carbonite updates, tons of features and support. Look at the price of leveling guides or gold selling. You could buy years of Carbonite updates for what they charge. If you don't want to pay, then use Carbonite Quest. It works well and we have many improvements planned for it in the future.

To quote a great book "A worker is worth his wages".

This is my personal opinion and is not an "official" CBC response.

Thx,
faatal

Last edited by carboniteaddon : 02-15-08 at 12:05 PM.
 
02-15-08, 12:34 PM   #20
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Pester View Post
If he is in business to make money

Obviously he is, otherwise he would not have spent the serious bucks it costs to legally license an LLC. Depending on the state you live in, this can be extremely expensive. A lot of hoops to jump through for it not to mention the IRS obligations along with it. He also went through the hassle of making "Carbonite" a registered trademark. None of this is cheap.

I'm using the trial version and I must say that it's an above par addon, and I'll more than likely get a subscription because I feel that it's well worth it. I don't really know anything about the guy who created Carbonite, but perhaps he feels that this is his first foot in the door for a serious programming career later on. Everyone has to start somewhere, and what better way to begin than to have people actually pay for an addon that is used in one of the worlds largest MMO's? That'll be sweet on a resume! None of us have the right to say that he has no right to make an honest buck.

Hell, I date a programmer and programming has paid for his house, cars and everything else he owns. We grind quests just about every evening in WoW and I can't tell you how many times I've half assed joked about him creating addons for me, or making me a custom UI. He laughs and tells me he doesn't work for free lol. We shouldn't expect everyone in this community to do so either.
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