WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 6

frogofdoom · 03-21-09, 12:10 PM

This kind of makes me wonder what Blizzard was really thinking with creating this policy, seeing how it has upset many authors to the point of stopping support for their addons, which I think they could've seen coming.

Blizzard's official stance has always been that they approve of UI mods, and that as long as something's possible to do with the addon API, it's ok. In the past they've been content to just remove functionality for things they didn't like (e.g. the old versions of Decursive, AutoTravel and others), but this new policy (and the looming functionality for addon-banning) seems almost like a shift to an "everyone should just use the default UI" ideology.

sweede · 03-21-09, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Astrocanis

If you want to be honest, WoW owes Games Workshop, the overall Lua community and the provider of their C++ / Java compilers a cut of the action. Because, like every other software license, they are allowed to use the software they found their product on, but they don't own it.

Sun and Microsoft (i'm sure they're using Microsoft C++ Compilers), and any other associated parties in the development of World of Warcraft (OpenGL libraries, Lua, etc) ALL have licensing that specifically allows for closed source applications to be created, distributed and sold without royalty. You would pay whatever initial Fee that the license holder requests and go on your merry way.

How you would say "the Lua license allows me to do whatever i want with lua code i create for wow", but i can assure you that while the addons you write are in lua, they do not inherit the Lua license in any form.

What blizzard needs to do is release the licensing agreement that they made with the Lua Development team and release an intended license for the creation of applets (As they are called in the ToS/EULA) that use the Warcraft Lua Engine.

Zyonin · 03-21-09, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by sweede

Sun and Microsoft (i'm sure they're using Microsoft C++ Compilers), and any other associated parties in the development of World of Warcraft (OpenGL libraries, Lua, etc) ALL have licensing that specifically allows for closed source applications to be created, distributed and sold without royalty. You would pay whatever initial Fee that the license holder requests and go on your merry way.

How you would say "the Lua license allows me to do whatever i want with lua code i create for wow", but i can assure you that while the addons you write are in lua, they do not inherit the Lua license in any form.

What blizzard needs to do is release the licensing agreement that they made with the Lua Development team and release an intended license for the creation of applets (As they are called in the ToS/EULA) that use the Warcraft Lua Engine.

Blizzard has no need to release the licensing agreement made with the "Lua Development team" as Lua is an open source language that has been released under the MIT license:

=====================================================================

The MIT License

License for Lua 5.0 and later versions

Copyright © 1994-2008 Lua.org, PUC-Rio.

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.

=====================================================================

Info sourced from the Open Source Initiative and Lua.org

http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
http://www.lua.org/license.html

The license is very generous and fairly simple. Read up in Lua.org's License page linked above.

Yhor · 03-21-09, 01:05 PM

I can't see why anyone in their right mind would support Blizzard with their decision against asking for money for an addon. You as the user have the right and choice not to use the addon. Yes, I'm comparing this to Nazi Germany. Don't be mindless sheep that thinks they are doing this "for the good" of the WoW community, that's what Hitler said.

I realize this can and probably will be deleted. I know this is an Official Blizzard Fansite. I know I am no longer a Blizzard fan...

I'm urging you all to really think about Warden and the new policies including this new UI policy and the Battle.net policy (#15 in ToS) allowing Microsoft to distribute ads IN GAME (tba, I suppose, after all of this has cooled off).

Don't support Blizzard on this guys, I beg you not to. If you don't cancel, you are supporting them.

Sythalin · 03-21-09, 01:16 PM

Sure, lua is open source. As with XML. But in the end, it's still, in fact, Blizzard's API that's being used. People need to keep this in mind while they're debating over open source material. Mods are not possible without this and is owned by Blizz. To that extend, they do have complete control over what mods can do what and how. Keeping this thought in mind, mods like Carbonite were making money off of Blizzard's API, which is in all technicality, illegal.

Simplified:
Without Blizzard's API (which is copyrighted, mind you), you cannot make a mod with lua/XML that can interact with WoW. To create an interface that utilizes that copyrighted material and then charge for it is illegal. It's on the same line as going to a KFC, buying a bucket of chicken then selling it to others.

Tristanian · 03-21-09, 01:31 PM

It's a document designed to tell us what is "right" and "wrong" in their eyes, and how they plan to deal with addons that do not abide by the policy.

I'm with Clad on this one. People are generally blowing this way out of proportion and try to bring ethics in a matter where the boundaries between right and wrong, are, at best, blurry. I must have read more than 100 doomsday posts about how Blizzard wants to eventually control what we use. I believe that they couldn't care less. Imho, the whole deal has more to do with Carbonite and similar addons generating profit out of subscriptions, which is clearly that something Blizzard doesn't like, regardless of whether people condone it or not, or whether its ethical or not. I can personally understand the point of view of fellow authors being able to optionally charge for that "extra feature" or art, despite the fact that I, myself have never asked for a dime.

Ultimately, its Blizzard's game (should have said API I guess), they needed a legal document to use for #ss covering in case something goes terribly wrong and well, there you have it (though it does not appear to have a legal binding...yet). Outlining some simple rules is one thing. Trying to enforce them is another and I can think of a lot of reasons of why attempting to enforce this policy (to its letter), would yield rather negative results from the community.

Don't support Blizzard on this guys, I beg you not to. If you don't cancel, you are supporting them.

I won't intend to perform backseat moderation, but your opinion has been noted on multiple occasions, in this thread. Constantly repeating yourself and trying to be manipulative will not help your message get across to more people.

Delmara · 03-21-09, 01:34 PM

Simplified:
Without Blizzard's API (which is copyrighted, mind you), you cannot make a mod with lua/XML that can interact with WoW. To create an interface that utilizes that copyrighted material and then charge for it is illegal.

If what you say is true than it is illegal for Blizzard to charge for the initial purchase of the game (not the subscription fee) because in order for the game to work Blizzard has to use Microsoft's Windows API (which is copyrighted, mind you) and also Microsoft's DirectX API (which is also copyrighted, mind you). So in other words, to create a game that utilizes that copyrighted material and then charge for it is illegal (according to your logic anyway).

Yhor · 03-21-09, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Tristanian

I won't intend to perform backseat moderation, but your opinion has been noted on multiple occasions, in this thread. Constantly repeating yourself and trying to be manipulative will not help your message get across to more people.

Noted. I concede.

Slakah · 03-21-09, 01:35 PM

Yhor, I think you going a bit over the top. (thats all I have to say about your responses, also people compare too many things to Nazi Germany :P)

Anyway my views on the matter, because I am not a lawyer I'm not going to argue about this from a legal standpoint.

Blizzard designed WoW and should be allowed to enforce any ideal they see fit, through blocking of any addons which break their new policy. I partially dissagree with #5, but I will also wait a reasonable amount of time to await an official Blizzard responce before taking any action (if any).

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by ChaosInc

Without Blizzard's API (which is copyrighted, mind you), you cannot make a mod with lua/XML that can interact with WoW. To create an interface that utilizes that copyrighted material and then charge for it is illegal. It's on the same line as going to a KFC, buying a bucket of chicken then selling it to others.

Actually, you cannot copyright the interface you present in an API. You can copyright the code you use to implement the API, but not the API itself. You openly publish an API in order to give others the ability to access that API. You have no control and no rights either over how they use that API, how they implement their use of the API or how the distribute the works they create based on that API.

Your only rights are to remove the API or change it... but your rights stop at the API. The "I" in API stands for "Interface" which is the meeting between two disjoint things. It would be like your local power company telling you that they own the lamp you plug into the socket that's the interface to their power grid.

Sythalin · 03-21-09, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

Actually, you cannot copyright the interface you present in an API. You can copyright the code you use to implement the API, but not the API itself. You openly publish an API in order to give others the ability to access that API. You have no control and no rights either over how they use that API, how they implement their use of the API or how the distribute the works they create based on that API.

Your only rights are to remove the API or change it... but your rights stop at the API. The "I" in API stands for "Interface" which is the meeting between two disjoint things. It would be like your local power company telling you that they own the lamp you plug into the socket that's the interface to their power grid.

Point taken, but a bit off the mark I meant. I never intended that Blizz owns all mods, but in fact the source. To extend your analogy of the power company, sure. They provide the power to operate the lamp, but I highly doubt they'd be happy if someone turned around and sold the lamps light under "power company's power and lighting".

Think that makes sense.... makes sense in my head at least.

Tekkub · 03-21-09, 02:10 PM

A better example would be... the power company can stop providing power if you're doing something with it that they don't want you to do.

Yes, I know that in the real world the power company is a bit special. They cannot just cut your service on a whim, especially if you have someone with medical equipment... maybe the best example would be your internet provider instead. You go downloading terabytes of ****, they can cancel your service.

GrissomXIX · 03-21-09, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Yhor

I can't see why anyone in their right mind would support Blizzard with their decision against asking for money for an addon. You as the user have the right and choice not to use the addon. Yes, I'm comparing this to Nazi Germany. Don't be mindless sheep that thinks they are doing this "for the good" of the WoW community, that's what Hitler said.

Mindless sheep? We do have the choice to use the add-on or not, we also have the choice to "donate" or not. If we were all mindless sheep we wouldn't even use third party add-ons because we'd be so overwhelmed with the Blizzard interface we couldn't even fathom anything better.

Originally Posted by Yhor

Don't support Blizzard on this guys, I beg you not to. If you don't cancel, you are supporting them.

Just because I don't cancel my account doesn't mean I don't support someone. Let me be a mindless sheep and cancel my account because someone says I should in support of add-on authors. My account and play time has nothing to do with add-on authors.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by ChaosInc

I never intended that Blizz owns all mods, but in fact the source.

Just for the sake of clarity... no... they do NOT own the source because the person who wrote that source uses their API. The own the source to their API, but have no rights what-so-ever to any application that uses the API.

For example: Windows has an API Bliz uses, OpenGL has an API Bliz uses, the video cards have an API Bliz uses... do these entities own Bliz's code? Do these enties have the right to dictate to Bliz how is markets it's product that uses their API? Can they demand that Bliz give WoW away for free?

That's what Bliz has done to the mod authors (effectively).

GrissomXIX · 03-21-09, 03:25 PM

Just because they don't enforce how their API is used doesn't mean Blizzard can't.

SquishyMage · 03-21-09, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Yhor

Yes, I'm comparing this to Nazi Germany.

I invoke Godwin's Law.

Anyone who compares Blizzard's creation of a list of rules regarding addon development and support to the wholesale slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews is, frankly, an idiot.

spiel2001 · 03-21-09, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by GrissomXIX

Just because they don't enforce how their API is used doesn't mean Blizzard can't.

Say what?

You can't "enforce" an API.

Sepioth · 03-21-09, 03:52 PM

It is absolutely AMAZING how many people are crying about this "new" policy. To the point that people are canceling accounts and stopping production of their addons ... I find the whole uproar over this quite strange and puzzling.

What's the BIG deal ?? You CAN still make money off the mod .. you just can not advertise that in the actual game. IT'S their game, if they don't allow/want ANY advertising at all that's their choice. Advertise your website or place of distribution instead and put up a donation link.

Not to sure why they care about the encrypted code on a few addons because as far as I know it can't really do anything malicious (and if it could it wouldn't take long for word to spread anyway) and it helps to protect a programmers work.

But to each is own I suppose and if people want to stop developing an addon for whatever their reasons then so be it. I'm sure a replacement will pop up in it's place.

I just think people are BLOWING this WAAAAAYY outta proportion.

Yhor · 03-21-09, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by SquishyMage

I invoke Godwin's Law.

Anyone who compares Blizzard's creation of a list of rules regarding addon development and support to the wholesale slaughter of 6,000,000 Jews is, frankly, an idiot.

If that is all you took from my post, then you are the idiot. Their (blizzard's) actions have the potential to slaughter IP rights. That is what the big deal is.

I have already conceded. I know I went off base, but I won't be attacked and not respond.

acapela · 03-21-09, 04:04 PM

i think these are good moves on Blizzard's part, and arguably overdue.

but it seems like this could be difficult to enforce, generally. what is to stop someone who sees this as a revenue opportunity from hosting their own addon(s), via an offshore website, and simply charging for them?

for instance, last i looked, Pelion was requiring a "donation" (>=5 CHF, due to Paypal fees), as a prerequisite to allowing access to the current/functioning version of ReagentID. i used to use this addon, but it basically "disappeared", apparently "taken private". the only "free" version is "pre-WotLK" (i.e. might not even work).

i am not quite certain what Blizzard would be able to do about this, if authors persisted in requiring explicitly "compulsory" donations like this, or outright purchase. i expect the "community process" will result in broad voluntarily compliance, but still...