WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[MidgetMage55]

Originally Posted by silentdabeast Ohohoh....so you put your addons HERE for...yourself... Well, why don't you just keep them on your own computer? Why don't you just make a guild website (as most guild have) on one of those free sites like wowstead and put your addons there, for your guild and buddies? See again, you're not making sense. If the addons aren't meant for everyone, why are you giving everyone access to them? Again as I said before about what WM has said and what WoWI has said...I want to SEE what they said, not just be told by authors and "site supporters" what you were told was said. As I posted on Curse, and now I am posting here, if you can deliver da goods, as it were, and prove to me that WM was not trying to work with you - that all they put on their site is a lie - then I will do whatever I can to make WM look like the biggest pieces of H.S. on the internet (except for sites that relate to horse fecal matter). But I will NOT do this unless I have something concrete. That's not fair to WM, and it's not fair to the enduser. The only reason I do it a bit to wowi and curse is because, frankly, I don't like them nearly as much as I like WM (with regard to how I can get addons quickly and easily). The PEOPLE behind curse and wowi are just people - just like me - and I make no judgments about them. It's simply not enough to say "GranTorino is the BEST movie of 2009". Perhaps it is, but let me see it first, then we can both rejoice in how absolutely awesome it truly is! Call me a doubting Thomas, but if I was one of the disciples, I would probably be the one who says "show me his hands and feet, then I'll believe!"

And if they havent said anything, even though they claimed to have done in their FAQ. What then? How do the admins show nothing?

They talked to curse. This is not in dispute. They havent talked to this site and since there is nothing to show its a simple matter of one word against the other. You choose to believe who you want to believe.

You also dont have to understand or even like the logic that the authors are putting forth for their reasons. Just like you dont have to understand why some bands dont like to use digital downloads for their music even though they would get out to a larger audience. Its their Intellectual Property and they make that call. In all the posts you have made how many authors/supporters do you think you have converted?

P.S. Im still waiting to see this proof. Ill even grant you that if its legit and convincing ill personally join your crusade. Oh and im still waiting for your better website that you talked about back a few pages.

[silentdabeast]

The proof...I'm asking permission to share it and waiting a response.

the better website...once I get some money (hopefully this summer) to purchase a domain and a host, I'll start working on it...shoot and I still have to contact Blizzard and work this out with them...but I think they'll go for it because it will benefit them like no other. I also have to finish 3 website projects that I have been hired for...but there's a long summer ahead.

Tell you what - here's a hint at my plan: If I can work this out with Blizzard, authors who write good and heavily used addons (not sure of numbers yet) won't have to pay for their wow accounts...Now if someone has the talent and the business expertise to do something with that, and can do it before me - more power to 'em. Otherwise I hope, by the grace of almighty Blizzard, to turn this idea in to a reality this summer.

[voodoodad]

Ok, you want the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth! (But here it is anyway)

John F. Kennedy was really killed by Frank Sinatra shooting from behind the fence on the grassy gnoll.

An alien spacecraft really did crash near Roswell, NM in 1947. Maralyn Monroe was the only survivor.

Atlantis really did sink almost 15,000 years ago. Oddly enough, it resurfaced around 30 years ago and is now known popularly as the Epcot Center.

OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson are both completely innocent, and were quietly joined in a civil-union ceremony about a year ago. They now reside quietly in their mountainside fortress in Southern Kuwait.

There, you wanted the truth, you GOT the truth.

[Seerah]

silentdabeast:

You're right. Only one side can be telling the truth. That means that you have to look at the facts as presented, read the history, and look at each side's past behavior and reputation to know whom to believe. All of these people taking time out of their day to discuss this with you have done this already.

You know who they chose to believe. The question is, have you yourself done the research to know why?

There is no spin in any threads on this site, any threads on the Wowace site, nor any threads on the official forums. The only spin is in WM's so-called "FAQ".

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by silentdabeast I also have to finish 3 website projects that I have been hired for...but there's a long summer ahead.

Better stop slacking off on internet forums and get crackin!

[MidgetMage55]

Originally Posted by silentdabeast The proof...I'm asking permission to share it and waiting a response. the better website...once I get some money (hopefully this summer) to purchase a domain and a host, I'll start working on it...shoot and I still have to contact Blizzard and work this out with them...but I think they'll go for it because it will benefit them like no other. I also have to finish 3 website projects that I have been hired for...but there's a long summer ahead. Tell you what - here's a hint at my plan: If I can work this out with Blizzard, authors who write good and heavily used addons (not sure of numbers yet) won't have to pay for their wow accounts...Now if someone has the talent and the business expertise to do something with that, and can do it before me - more power to 'em. Otherwise I hope, by the grace of almighty Blizzard, to turn this idea in to a reality this summer.

Looking forward to the site. Should be interesting one way or another.
You'll also have to forgive me that i find it rather suspicious that WM is requiring people to get permission to provide proof that would in theory exonerate them in this entire mess.

Im no less interested in the proof however.

You also didnt asnwer another question. Lets assume that WM didnt try to contact this site contrary to what their FAQ states. How is WoWI to provide proof of something that never happened?

I would also recommend reading the posts WM made on the WoWAce forums regarding their thoughts on this matter when they first appeared on the scene. I think you will find it highly enlightening. They are linked a few times in this thread. Once i dig them up ill re-link them for you. Unless of course someone beats me to it.

EDIT: As mentioned in another thread heres is your first bacon picture payment Tekkub

[silentdabeast]

Originally Posted by voodoodad Ok, you want the truth? You can't HANDLE the truth! (But here it is anyway) John F. Kennedy was really killed by Frank Sinatra shooting from behind the fence on the grassy gnoll. An alien spacecraft really did crash near Roswell, NM in 1947. Maralyn Monroe was the only survivor. Atlantis really did sink almost 15,000 years ago. Oddly enough, it resurfaced around 30 years ago and is now known popularly as the Epcot Center. OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson are both completely innocent, and were quietly joined in a civil-union ceremony about a year ago. They now reside quietly in their mountainside fortress in Southern Kuwait. There, you wanted the truth, you GOT the truth.

No...JFK was killed by Elvis, then Elvis was taken by aliens but their ship malfunctioned and crashed, NOT in Roswell, but in the Bahamas, to which the survivors started to spread propaganda about the "lost city of Atlantis", and a few decades later it reappeared as a beautiful (and expensive) tourist attraction - run by the aliens who, after years of research, came up with a way of disguising themselves as humans. Michael Jackson learned about this research FROM OJ Simpson who is the FATHER of Elvis and used the techniques on himself. However, because the techniques were not meant for humans, his nose fell off and he began to have desires for young boys that looked like Peter Pan - BECAUSE Peter Pan, the inventor of Peanut Butter, originally used this creamy, slippery invention for...personal reasons...AND part of the alien formula for their disguise IS creamy peanut butter. THIS is why OJ is black and Elvis is white - Elvis USED to be black (which is why he went to a southern Baptist church with all black Christians and performed southern gospel/rock). Now, JFK found out about ALL of this, and Elvis, out of desperation and to protect the secret in the Bahamas, killed him by hiding in the grassy knoll, shooting him, and beaming himself from the scene. Come on guys, it makes perfect sense!

[Silh]

Re: Why not put addons on WM?

Speaking as an addon author who codes in his spare time for the fun of it, and also as an author of addons who are nowhere near as popular as others, hence one who has not had to deal with a lot of extra drama unlike some other addon authors...

Simply put:

WoWI has been good to the authors. WM has a history of not, which goes back years, not just the last few months where it really came to the forefront. I haven't even been one to take advantage of much of what WoWI offers, just hosting, and the beta keys to debug my addons before expansions have hit (and yes, I sat my character in Ironforge/Shattrath the whole time and didn't play the beta at all).

Given the choice of hosting on one site which makes life easier for the author, and one which could make life more difficult for the author, which one do you think they will choose?

Given the choice of picking a site which encourages and supports authors to continue to develop and release addons, versus one who hasn't helped and in some respects has exploited the authors, which do you think they would choose to support, even if it is a miniscule amount of advertising revenue?

Which would be a bigger loss to the entire realm of addons for WoW if they disappeared one day? The site which just distributes addons, or the one which helps people create them?

Addons may be 'free', but there's always a cost--time. For me, this is a hobby afterall, and I do this in my spare time, for my own enjoyment. Which quite frankly, I am not willing to exchange for a headache just for the sake of making other people's addon-updating take a few minutes less to do.

Am I being selfish perhaps? Look at it this way: You're getting the addon for free since the author's doing it for fun, and then you're asking them to take on extra trouble and deal with things that are NOT fun, just so you can have more convenience.

Quoth the ubiquitous WoW goblin: "Time is money, friend."

[silentdabeast]

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55 You also didnt asnwer another question. Lets assume that WM didnt try to contact this site contrary to what their FAQ states. How is WoWI to provide proof of something that never happened?

Because if WoWI tried to contact WM, there should be records of THAT anyway...that's all I want to see.

[voodoodad]

Originally Posted by silentdabeast No...JFK was killed by Elvis, then Elvis was taken by aliens but their ship malfunctioned and crashed, NOT in Roswell, but in the Bahamas, to which the survivors started to spread propaganda about the "lost city of Atlantis", and a few decades later it reappeared as a beautiful (and expensive) tourist attraction - run by the aliens who, after years of research, came up with a way of disguising themselves as humans. Michael Jackson learned about this research FROM OJ Simpson who is the FATHER of Elvis and used the techniques on himself. However, because the techniques were not meant for humans, his nose fell off and he began to have desires for young boys that looked like Peter Pan - BECAUSE Peter Pan, the inventor of Peanut Butter, originally used this creamy, slippery invention for...personal reasons...AND part of the alien formula for their disguise IS creamy peanut butter. THIS is why OJ is black and Elvis is white - Elvis USED to be black (which is why he went to a southern Baptist church with all black Christians and performed southern gospel/rock). Now, JFK found out about ALL of this, and Elvis, out of desperation and to protect the secret in the Bahamas, killed him by hiding in the grassy knoll, shooting him, and beaming himself from the scene. Come on guys, it makes perfect sense!

When compared to your support for WM? You BET it makes sense!

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by silentdabeast Because if WoWI tried to contact WM, there should be records of THAT anyway...that's all I want to see.

There must? How often do you empty your sent e-mail folder? I do mine weekly. This drama has been going on for years.

Not to mention any e-mail produced could only be as good as the word of the one producing it, as it would take all of 10 minutes to create a convincing "e-mail" complete with faked headers.

Maybe you want server logs? Not many admins I know of are eager to give those away, they tend to be pretty revealing. Not only that, but finding a year-old e-mail in the logs of a busy server? Wow... that'd be..... fun.

[silentdabeast]

Originally Posted by Silh Am I being selfish perhaps? Look at it this way: You're getting the addon for free since the author's doing it for fun, and then you're asking them to take on extra trouble and deal with things that are NOT fun, just so you can have more convenience.

No, I'm saying the following:

1) If your addon hobby is meant to freely offer addons to WOW players, then let the WOW player access your addon in any way they can. If it's just meant for a few people/guild/buddes, then don't host your addon publicly, because doing so opens doors for the WM's of the world to find ways of making life easier for the enduser. Mark my words, someone else WILL come along and find a way to gain access to your addons again - if they haven't already. There is no harm done in letting them host it...If WM's interface is difficult, then play the "supply and demand" game. That will force them to revise their author interface to meet your needs.

2) You can do whatever you want with your addon - you wrote it! If you do make it available to the general public, however, and it's a GOOD addon, expect people to use it and expect that they will want access to it! Limiting HOW your addons are available to the public does you nor anyone any good. I LLLLLOOOOOOVOVVVVVEEEE carto and carbo, but I won't use them until they are hosted on WM...because I do not want to be running from site to site and search page after page making sure my addons our up to date. That's how it was for the first 3 years of WoW, I was tired of it, and I won't go back to that. I think I speak for at least 3 or 4 million people when I say, WM makes it easy, addon hunting sucks!

[Tekkub]

Bah, lern2gmail. The only emails I delete are spam...

Beast, re: where I choose to host... every place I add to that list is another place I have to update when I make a release. Now if you only have one or two addons, fine.... but do you realize how many I have to my name? Maintaining them here and on curse/ace is more than enough hastle for me. I'm not exactly interested in inconveniencing myself simply for the convenience of someone who's getting it for free. It's not that hard for people to find my addons, if they don't like the options I give them then that's their problem. As I've said a dozen times before, if WM had ever approached me about hosting my addons, the situation would be much different. But they never did, they just did what they pleased, and that doesn't sit well with me.

[Yhor]

You know, I've made at least one "entitlement" post in my history here on WoWI, regarding MazzleUI. It was so shameful to me that I used the excuse of being drunk the next day, after re reading what I had posted. I haven't drank in 6 years, I made an ass out of myself in that thread, and then tried to cover my ass by saying I was drunk.

Why did I post the garbage I posted? Because I was too lazy to read through the legitimate information that was easily accessable pertaining to the subject of my post. I did so AFTER Mazzlefizz handed my butt to me on a mithril platter, and I was sincerely ashamed of some of the things I said. I am even more ashamed of using the drunk excuse, instead of just telling the truth, that I was lazy and entitled to a working UI, because I paid for it (yeah, donations give me rights, yo. /sarcasm). Since then, I make every attempt, on my own, to research something BEFORE making stupid and idiotic claims against someone who really is not deserving of the abuse. If I were a site mod, or even Mazzle, I would have banned me, but they didn't. They let me spill my nonsense and look stupid, because I deserved it.

I have a link, if anyone wants to see my embarrassment. I would give it freely, if a lesson can be learned from it.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Tekkub Bah, lern2gmail. The only emails I delete are spam...

I was referring to my work e-mail. Gmails not an option, I'm stuck with evil exchange.

As for my personal e-mail, I run my own e-mail server, which I like much better. Sieve makes automatically organizing e-mail so much easier than even Gmails filter/tag.

[MidgetMage55]

You keep saying it doesnt do the authors or anyone any good to host in only one place. Having only one place to upload addons to means less places to look for comments about bugs. I can guarantee most people dont use bug trackers in offsite areas that some authors use. Most people just post 'its broked fix it' in the comments.

One site make it easier when time to upload comes. One place. one upload and BOOM your done.

If multiple sites use different methods of upload/bug tracking then its more systems to have to learn/memorize.

Im sure i could go on with this but in the end it isnt necessarily better for the author to host in multiple places. From the examples (and thats just what im aware of as a simple user) above id wager its actually far from it.

As has been stated before the only advantage(?) would be more users. While you feel this is a good thing and should be the driving reason for hosting publicly, and there are people who i would imagine would agree with you. You cant speak for the authors. You dont get to make that call for them. You dont even have to like that its the logic they choose to use. It is however a fact whether you prefer it or not.

[silentdabeast]

Originally Posted by Vyper There must? How often do you empty your sent e-mail folder? I do mine weekly. This drama has been going on for years. Not to mention any e-mail produced could only be as good as the word of the one producing it, as it would take all of 10 minutes to create a convincing "e-mail" complete with faked headers. Maybe you want server logs? Not many admins I know of are eager to give those away, they tend to be pretty revealing. Not only that, but finding a year-old e-mail in the logs of a busy server? Wow... that'd be..... fun.

Then point and case...NO ONE can say for SURE that WoWi OR WM are being honest! I 'may' be able to, with regard to WM, but that will depend on what I can and cannot do, and on what additional info they are willing to share. But right now at this moment, the only reason people are supporting WoWI is because of...faith. I will be the first to say that I am not one to criticize people of faith, but I will also say that when it comes to stuff like this, I have learned not to trust people and put faith in unsubstantiated statements. The zeal of some of the supporters of this site leaves little to be desired. For example, I give Minion a B- (on an A-F scale), withholding the fact that it is a Beta. I give WM an A- (sometimes it's a little slow). But some of the zeal I find turns Minion into an A+++++++ and WM into an F-------, and it simply isn't a good way to carry on a conversation...true the vise versa can be said.

My biggest hatred about the internet in general is all the spam and ads we are flooded with which brain wash us and our children - I'm tired of it. I know it's how the net works, but I'm still tired of it. I'm tired of commercials, ads, propaganda, etc. If that 3"x3" ad was taken off of Minion, I would not only consider using it regularly, i would give it's Beta grade the SAME grade I give WM!

What I, after reading the admin's post, have concluded is that the WM people are LOADED with money, and were before they made the UI. They aren't as worried about making money from this as say the admins here. I understand that. I apprehensively understand why you have the ads on your site that have nothing to do with WoW at all...it drives me INSANE, but I understand. My advice is, do what WM did...find some ppl with LOTS of money who play WoW, work with them to develop a good user friendly site with NO ADS, and a UI with NO ADS, and become what WM is! If you won't work a deal with WM, BECOME WM! Throw them out of the water! I'll use WoWi again if you do that, and I'll even recommend it. If you do that, then you'll be taking my idea away, but I'm alright with that! I got other things to do (like studies) and shouldn't be spending time on this anyway.

[silentdabeast]

Originally Posted by Tekkub Bah, lern2gmail. The only emails I delete are spam... Beast, re: where I choose to host... every place I add to that list is another place I have to update when I make a release. Now if you only have one or two addons, fine.... but do you realize how many I have to my name? Maintaining them here and on curse/ace is more than enough hastle for me. I'm not exactly interested in inconveniencing myself simply for the convenience of someone who's getting it for free. It's not that hard for people to find my addons, if they don't like the options I give them then that's their problem. As I've said a dozen times before, if WM had ever approached me about hosting my addons, the situation would be much different. But they never did, they just did what they pleased, and that doesn't sit well with me.

But do you understand WHY they did it? Profit? sure, but moreso because they knew people - millions of people - would use their software! Why? BECAUSE IT WORKS! Am i saying the ends justify the means? No, BUT I AM saying that the ends should make those supplying the means think a little differently on HOW they're supplying the means. If WM could pull in millions, think of how many WoWI could pull in if they created something AS GOOD or BETTER than WM!!! They would throw WM (and hopefully CURSE) out of the water - everyone would be happy and I could stop staying up till midnight trying to convince someone of my cause.

For ME I would probably be happy with Minion IF the HUGE ad disappeared and was replaced with two or three link-type ads that don't flash or change...look at the WM interface and see what I mean. THAT would do it for me!!!! That's ALL it would take!!!

[Tekkub]

You realize that minion is exactly that, right? You should know damn well that good software isn't created overnight, and WM has been around a lot longer. Minion will get better, just as the curse client has.

Our issue has always been with WM's actions, not their software. We've said many MANY times that it's a damn nice client. The issue was how they found themselves content for it.

What EXACTLY is your cause, just a good downloader for the masses? We're working on it, but we want to do it right by everyone. WM's failing was that they ONLY cared about the users. Users are only half of the picture. WoWI and Ace (and thus Curse via proxy) have got the author part figured out, and they're improving things for the users (who aren't in as bad of a boat as some people like to paint it).

[voodoodad]

WE CAN and DO state that WoWI is being honest! We feel this way because we still believe that some people are inherently honest. We trust them because they have earned our trust. I told you the reasons why a few posts back, but you obviously refused to read it, because you're still chasin' your tail in that endless spiral.