WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Bomyne I personally do not trust open source. It's good in theory, but not in practice. (my web browser is Opera) Just look at some of the open source projects on the internet. The first one coming to mind is Mozilla. Care to guess how many clones there are of Mozilla (not Firefox, Mozilla Suite)?

I can forgive you for this, these types of sentiments are mostly made out of ignorance regarding open source software.

For example, this site you are on right now runs on open source software. It is running on CentOS linux, which is a redistribution of Redhat Enterprise linux sources recompiled and debranded (to comply with the copyright rules).

And the software on the server that is serving up this site is lighttpd, a great open source http server. (Previously it was run on Apache, the most widely used, and open source, web server worldwide).

The software and programming language that runs all the code that brings you the forums, and nearly all the other dynamic features of this site, is PHP, probably the most widely used web scripting language in use worldwide, and open source.

The database storing all the user information and all of the addon information? It's also an open source database engine.

Chance are you have open source software without even knowing it. Own a Tivo? It is running linux. A Broadband router? Chances are good it is running a version of linux for embedded devices, and probably using some form of PHP for their web based interface.

LUA, the very language every WoW addon is written in, is open source.

I could go on and on about how your life is probably touched every single day by open source software, without your knowledge in most cases. The servers that run the complete internet name and number scheme are run using the open source software BIND. Still the most widely used email and messaging servers run worldwide are open source.

Also, did you know that outside the US, Firefox 3 now sees greater use than Internet Explorer 7? And adding up all versions of both software, Firefox is now 10% behind IE overall in Europe?

That you don't "trust" open source is just because you are ignorant about what open source actually is and what it means.

Look I think WM works. All of your WM haters (those who delve way too deep into everything and concern yourself with things you should not) all I gotta say is...let WM, Curse and WoWi work it out!

Getting into the whole money and bandwidth and legal action thing...leave that up to the people that actually have a say in it. As for YOU, use whatever program works best for you, and let those of us who use WM use it too.

I am not going to boycott WM now just because WOWi and Curse decide to be buttholes and try and force users to use their stupid slow add-infested sites again. I quit going to those sites because I am SICK AND TIRED of dating ads, "wanna have 6 pack abs in 2 hours" ads, male enhancement ads, etc. The only reason I'm here now is because I clicked the author link in WM - so that I could post something.

Do you realize the scandalistic nature of all of this? We sit here and consume, and curse/WoWi takes advantage. We don't even have to download anything from curse.com, and they get paid for us just visiting. We don't have to click on the "True, stop, stare, flirt" ad, and the company pays WoWi to display it anyway. THAT is what's wrong. We allow these addon sites (not to mention most other sites on the net) to take advantage of our consumption nature, and then when someone like me comes along and says "enough", they try and FORCE us to keep using their sites. That's all this is - curse and WoWi are trying to force us to use their sites, so that they can get revenue from these less than truthful, and some verging on the illegal, ads.

If you want to complain and bash anyone, it should be curse and WoWi, not WM, which is just offering a FREE and AD FREE service - an alternative to the norm of ad infestation, which probably uses less bandwidth than having thousands of people on the actual sites viewing bad ads, and trying to find the addon's they want (which are buried somewhere under all the ads). It's all a bunch of little boys and girls crying to mommy because they aren't getting the bigger slice of cake. It's all stupid! And you fall for it hook, line, and sinker when you say "wowmatrix is stealing bandwidth and legal action should be done".

[Bouvi]

Another 1 post clueless wonder.

Thanks for supporting the site by posting here. Also WM has ads on their client. That is how they made money while stealing bandwidth from other sites.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by petrakid Look I think WM works. All of your WM haters (those who delve way too deep into everything and concern yourself with things you should not) all I gotta say is...let WM, Curse and WoWi work it out!

Seriously, these kinds of posts are getting real old, and take away from the real debate, and give more opportunity to those who oppose WM to paint all those who support WM as being at this level.

As that is what this entire thread seems to be descending into, and any attempt at legitimate discussion of issues related to these events ends up getting treated with derision and disrespect, I'm bowing out at this point. Maybe it is time for another thread to be made for more serious, non-venting, discussion of the issues raised.

[Conclusion]

As a user who is caught in the middle of a tit-for-tat war between Curse Gaming, Wowinterface and Wowmatrix, I believe that the timing of this "fix" and "protection for authors" is fairly self serving to Curse and Wowinterface. To be perfectly honest, if I wanted to pay a monthly subscription fee for someone's "hobby" and freely available code, I would have done that starting 3 years ago when I began to play the game.

I believe it is going to be simply a matter of time before Blizzard Entertainment reigns in the addon sites as they have the developers as well and basically say that if you use our content on your pages, you cannot sell "subscription" services on top of what we already charge. This attempt to stiffle competition because they don't do what Curse and Wowinterface want them to do will ultimately lead to the downfall of both groups.

I realize that this opinion may get me banned on my first post, but I feel the need to echo the sentiments of other early posters in this thread that basically have said that the actions that the groups have taken this week (on all sides) are really in poor taste and judgment.

I guess if you are really losing money because your ads aren't being viewed (and clicked...because this is how ad based advertising works), you've got to go cry foul somewhere.

[Shirik]

Originally Posted by petrakid WM, which is just offering a FREE and AD FREE service

o.O Have you actually looked at anything other than the big "Update" button on the screen it provides?

Originally Posted by Conclusion I realize that this opinion may get me banned on my first post, but I feel the need to echo the sentiments of other early posters in this thread that basically have said that the actions that the groups have taken this week (on all sides) are really in poor taste and judgment.

We do not ban people for having opinions. If we did, approximately 50% of the posters in this thread would have been banned.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by petrakid I am not going to boycott WM now just because WOWi and Curse decide to be buttholes and try and force users to use their stupid slow add-infested sites again. I quit going to those sites because I am SICK AND TIRED of dating ads, "wanna have 6 pack abs in 2 hours" ads, male enhancement ads, etc. The only reason I'm here now is because I clicked the author link in WM - so that I could post something.

Funny... I have yet to see a 6-pack-abs add, or a male enhancement add. Could it be you've never actually visited this site before, yet been a drain on their resources by using WM? Wonder of wonders!

Originally Posted by petrakid Do you realize the scandalistic nature of all of this? We sit here and consume, and curse/WoWi takes advantage. We don't even have to download anything from curse.com, and they get paid for us just visiting. We don't have to click on the "True, stop, stare, flirt" ad, and the company pays WoWi to display it anyway. THAT is what's wrong. We allow these addon sites (not to mention most other sites on the net) to take advantage of our consumption nature, and then when someone like me comes along and says "enough", they try and FORCE us to keep using their sites. That's all this is - curse and WoWi are trying to force us to use their sites, so that they can get revenue from these less than truthful, and some verging on the illegal, ads.

Do you think it's scandalistic when TV stations get paid to air ads in between programs? I don't buy anything from those either. OMG! ABC shouldn't be getting paid then!
Curse and WoWI are certainly not forcing you to use their site. They are only enforcing the way you use it if you choose to. In other words, you are more than welcome to get your addons elsewhere, but if you get them here, they aren't going to let your thrash their servers with a spider that uses thier bandwidth while providing no revenue for which to pay for that bandwidth.
All in all, you have no room to *****. Unless of course you happen to work for free, while providing any materials you need out of pocket?

[Conclusion]

Maybe it is time that the powers that be that run Curse and Wowinterface listen to what the community at large wants.

--We (the community) first had to go to several different sites to update popular mods and addons that assist in playing the game.

--Then Wowace built a clean interface for updating the popular mods all at once and also providing an easy to use, searchable, repository with little advertising and other bloat. This contributes to Wowace's huge success (and ultimately, their quick exit from the all-in-one updater).

--Wowmatrix comes in with a similar type of service but unfortunately does this service in what is contrary to what the major sources of addons want. Wowmatrix gains a huge fanbase for being easy to use and quickly mimicking what the Ace updater brought to the community. This happens several months ahead of what the two main repositories of addons are able to do.

I basically said all of this to come down to a quick point. The community (as it's probably evident) wants something that is easy to use and not filled with advertising, having to pay an additional monthly subscription fee, and that actually works.

I realize that there are "business" interests at play here, but maybe it is time to actually look at what the Ace updater did and what the Wowmatrix updater does, reverse engineer that (because again, this is provided free...as in beer...to the community at large) and build something that can meet the community's expectation.

I will say that I would not really mind looking at one or two graphical ads as long as the client that I choose to use is giving me what I (and possibly others) want. The thought of a "subscription" service that gives authors "rewards" is really nothing more than a few people trying to make a quick buck off of someone else's hobby.

And yes..I realize I just echoed the point for disrupting access to Wowmatrix in the last statement.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by petrakid Look I think WM works. All of your WM haters (those who delve way too deep into everything and concern yourself with things you should not) all I gotta say is...let WM, Curse and WoWi work it out!

LOLZ. Please do be reading all of 34 page thread before posting. To make it short : They did. Over several months. Wow matrix's response ? A large finger .

I find myself copy pasting a link from all of a page ago.

Here it is again

http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=108

Do you realize the scandalistic nature of all of this? We sit here and consume, and curse/WoWi takes advantage. We don't even have to download anything from curse.com, and they get paid for us just visiting.

Once again. I repeat myself. Free service. Servers don't run on sunshine and rainbows. Now tell me how do you expect them to pay for their bills ?

If you want to complain and bash anyone, it should be curse and WoWi, not WM, which is just offering a FREE and AD FREE service - an alternative to the norm of ad infestation, which probably uses less bandwidth

No they are protecting their interests. WM was using their bandwidth and not allowing visits to their sites to recoup their costs via advertising/site impressions.

And please dont pretend to think you know more about how much bandwidth it uses when people like Dolby, Shirak and Kaelten actually get to look at the IP logs of exactly how WM works and how much bandwidth it consumes.

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by Shirik We do not ban people for having opinions. If we did, approximately 50% of the posters in this thread would have been banned.

If you guys did this thread would of been full with high fives , congratulaty pats on the backs , flying bacon , rainbows , ponies and dancing tauren.

And it would of been around 5 pages long.

It would not of been page after page after page of an endless cycle of entitlement user after entitlement user and the wowinterface / curse supporters correcting them on their delusions.

Expanding more energy to post and argue about something they're not going to change rather then go out and update manually makes no sense to me.

Conclusion (the user) not to sound mean or anything but it's 3.36 am in the morning , I'm tired and cranky and can't be bothered replying to your posts. Needless to say please have a look back through this thread and indeed click on the link from the previous post.

You may learn something before you're done <---- cause Shirak hates it

[Zyonin]

Originally Posted by Conclusion --Wowmatrix comes in with a similar type of service but unfortunately does this service in what is contrary to what the major sources of addons want. Wowmatrix gains a huge fanbase for being easy to use and quickly mimicking what the Ace updater brought to the community. This happens several months ahead of what the two main repositories of addons are able to do.

First of all, WoWAceUpdater only updated AddOns that were hosted on the WoWAce SVN (aka the developer's site). It did not touch any AddOns hosted on WoWInterface or Curse.

Second, WAU had to be killed. Why? Because WoWAce/Curse could no longer afford to pay for the bandwidth that users of WAU consumed. The old business model just could not pay for the truckload of bandwidth that WAU (and normal WoWAce downloaders) would eat. Somewhere in this thread is a total of how much bandwidth WAU/WoWAce was sucking down.

Now you expect Curse to pay for the bandwidth that WM uses. Now that bandwidth has to include WoWAce, CurseForge and normal Curse hosted mods. Curse did try to negotiate with WM as stated multiple times in this thread. Curse even tried to buy WM! However WM always wanted to pay a fraction of the bandwidth they ate or WM wanted an exorbitant amount for themselves. In short WM wanted (and still wants to) be greedy. WoWMatrix does not care about the AddOn community, they only care about cash. Curse and WoWInterface both have demonstrated that they care about the AddOn community.

If Curse and WoWInterface had not cut off WM when they did, it's very likely that both sites WOULD HAVE SHUT DOWN! Then were would WM get its mods?

• WoWUI? Not a chance, WoWUI has blocked WM for a long time now.
• Google code? I don't see authors rushing to host on Google Code, in fact I see the opposite.
• From privately hosted sites? I doubt it. Ever heard of the Slashdot Effect? WM users would Slashdot most private hosted sites off the net. In other words, WM users would crash those sites by everyone hitting those sites at once (like on Patch Day)
• From WM's site? Not a chance. Sure some authors have allowed their mods to be hosted on WM, however most will not. Why? WM does not offer authors any form of control over their AddOns, no version control (CVS, SVN, Git, Hg, etc.), bug tracking or commenting systems.

However again, WM users and defenders will simply not look at the big picture, instead they will cry because their ill gotten candy got taken away from them.

[Donnaterassi]

Originally Posted by LittleWhiteDove Note to Donnaterassi - From your signature "Does this bother anyone else as much as it bothers me? The owners of WoWInterface reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason." The fact that they can does not bother me as much as you signature comment does. Your stressing of the word edit would seem to be implying that the WoWInterface forum moderators are editing posts to suit what they want people to see or read. Since every edit shows who edited it and when, I am very sure that type of behavior from anyone associated with WoWInterface would have long ago been brought to light and they would not be as respected by the community as they are. I note that you have just registered on the site and wonder if you are just looking to vent or if you are out to try and create a problem where none exist. Either way I personally find your implication offensive.

Last item first. The fact that this is appearing on (or past) page 33 of a forum thread would seem to imply that some problem already exists, perhaps not the one you are implying, but a problem none the less.
Second, I would love to pretend that I have a super secret id that I am protecting by creating this forum id, but that is not the case, I have been a lurker like so many, I just needed to make myself heard. If you don't like what I have to say, skip my posts.

Far more importantly to me is my signature.

This forum, and all it's glorious bandwidth is owned by wowinterface and if they do not like what I have to say on their website they could (and perhaps they should) 1. shut me the hell up (IE remove my comment) or 2. drag my comment to a section where only certain people can see it (move it) or 3. lock it so no one can open it or add to it.

But the ability to edit is a powerful weapon. Removing limegreen font so people's eyes don't bleed is one thing. But Removing one WORD can change the entire meaning. That is what scares me.

Here is a stupid example>>>


I promise, am not giving you 100 game gold a day, MyLilPwny.
I promise, am not giving you 100 game gold a day, MyLilPwny.
becomes
I promise, am giving you 100 game gold a day, MyLilPwny.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Donnaterassi Far more importantly to me is my signature. This forum, and all it's glorious bandwidth is owned by wowinterface and if they do not like what I have to say on their website they could (and perhaps they should) 1. shut me the hell up (IE remove my comment) or 2. drag my comment to a section where only certain people can see it (move it) or 3. lock it so no one can open it or add to it. But the ability to edit is a powerful weapon. Removing limegreen font so people's eyes don't bleed is one thing. But Removing one WORD can change the entire meaning. That is what scares me.

It is however, needed for the filters they employ. Replacing lovely words like ***** with the lovely stars you now see constitutes editing. If that line was not in there they could be held culpable for that edit. You will notice that almost every message board (including the official WoW boards) include something to that effect in their terms of use.

[Donnaterassi]

Originally Posted by Vyper heh... do much gravedigging?

OMG.

Pre 3.1 (can't speak for today) WM was boasting 1800+ mods, and on some days it felt as though I looked at all of them. And, although many didn't live up to expectation, or locked up my system, others have made my life so much simpler.

[Vyper]

Originally Posted by Donnaterassi OMG. Pre 3.1 (can't speak for today) WM was boasting 1800+ mods, and on some days it felt as though I looked at all of them. And, although many didn't live up to expectation, or locked up my system, others have made my life so much simpler.

And so you reply to ancient posts whose authors have long since quit reading this thread, with posts that bring nothing new to the conversation? I was not commenting on you talking about the issue, I was talking about the pointless replies to posts from page 3, such as

Originally Posted by Donnaterassi You are wicked funny Rend! Are you sure we're not cousins?

[Shirik]

Please keep this thread on-topic or I will be forced to ensure it does via other means.

[Donnaterassi]

Originally Posted by honem Welcome to the discussion You might want to read Seerah's post at http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=108 She says it far better than I can. I would also like to point out that those 112 addon folders you mention ? They don't update every day. Once they are stable and working for you you should only need to update for major changes. And not every one of those 112 addon folders will get update everyday. Here's a real world example for you There is 193 folders in my addons folder. Taking out mulitpart part addons that makes 160 I'm keeping track of regularly. Yes I count all the DBM and Auctioneer ones as 2 addons because well I download 2 zips. DBM unzips to 18 addon folders but gets downloaded in 1 zip. Thusly I treat it as 1 addon not 18 in my "this is how many addons I use count" I get around 22 emails in around a week to 10 days about those 160 addons. It takes me 8 - 12 minutes to scan through them all , load up 6 or 7 pages in a tabbed browser and download maybe 4. And even then. Once week is still too often. I could reasonably only update every 2 weeks or even once per month. I only do it each week because I actually enjoy seeing what's changed and how often the authors of my addons submit changes. Once again. My UI is stable. Not blowing chuncks everywhere or coming with weird or arcane messages. This is why I can leave it for a month to update - if I wait for a month to update and my UI is perfectly stable it's not going to cause any problems. Of course there is a collorary to my statement here. What if one of my addons breaks or causes a problem for me ? Well in that case I'll be doing my level best to get it working for me. It can start with a bug addon report and can possibly end with me turfing that addon for good. And even if I spend a few hours trying to get it working I only have to do it once. Then it's back to my usaul schedule of updating once per week

Why would you assume that I would just jump into the book on chapter 33 without, at the very least, reviewing the cliff's notes. FYI: I read all 33 pages of posts.

http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=108 should be required reading before you can accept your forum poster agreement in the wowmatrix post wars. Also, (IMO) if an addon author's page is empty or full of obsolete work I am not entirely sure what weight their comments should really have. This doesn't imply they have no weight or that mine have more weight, it's just that I see "add-on author" and I think SomeOne who KNOWS something, then I get to their page and it's empty, and I'm like WTF, I thought you were an add-On Author.

I really don't think you read what I was saying, not really. To me DBM is one mod. That it happens to open into 18 subs to save bandwidth is DBM being nice to my poor dumb processor. You say exactly the same thing, but manage to imply that I am a doof that is counting DBM as 18 mods.
You win, you have more mods than me. Want a cookie?

My gaming day (pre 3.1)
Turn on computer, let dogs out, get FullThrottle (moar caffeine!)
See whats new on TankSpot, then click WowMatrix to see if any of my mods have been updated. Update as necessary, try new stuff, make donations, bug reports, etc,
Start WoW.
Play til numb.
Take a nap.
Raid half the night.
Rinse.
Repeat.

I actually have a tab open to look into your email updater thingy, but I am still disgruntled. This 3.1 FUWM fiasco is a deal breaker for me. However, since the deal isn't with you, you probably won't lose any sleep over it, but I still feel betrayed.

Randomly, I do wonder how many of the people posting on these pages and pages of comments have a real tangible -take it into McDonald's for a Big Mac- financial stake in the outcome of this battle.

Please, accept as given the many intangibles. I am curious only about the ones that begin with the sentence "Pay to the order of".
Anyone getting a paycheck from WowInterface, Curse, or WowMatrix?
I wish I was.

I apologize for the flame posts in advance, I get random when the servers are down too long.

[Donnaterassi]

(side note...Quash is such a great word and it hardly ever gets fully utilized.)

[Seerah]

wait wait... Are you implying that the supporters here are being paid to say so? I'm not even getting paid. This is volunteer work. The supporters here realize the full-range scope of what was going on and appreciate this site.

[Tekkub]

Originally Posted by Conclusion --Then Wowace built a clean interface for updating the popular mods all at once and also providing an easy to use, searchable, repository with little advertising and other bloat. This contributes to Wowace's huge success (and ultimately, their quick exit from the all-in-one updater).

The funny thing is, they never wanted to be a host. Ace is, and always was, a developer community. They got a rash of users thanks to the updater that quickly overwhelmed the site and forced them to discontinue the updater because they WEREN'T a hosting site. Hell they did so well with the updater that author that did not use Ace started pushing their mods to the svn JUST to be in the updater. Now that has ended and the same people (Kaelten, etc) are trying to get the updater thing right on Curse. By right I mean, of course, easy for the user but not stressful on the host site's checkbook. WM never respected that, it was just ace updater mark 2.

Originally Posted by Donnaterassi Randomly, I do wonder how many of the people posting on these pages and pages of comments have a real tangible -take it into McDonald's for a Big Mac- financial stake in the outcome of this battle. Please, accept as given the many intangibles. I am curious only about the ones that begin with the sentence "Pay to the order of". Anyone getting a paycheck from WowInterface, Curse, or WowMatrix? I wish I was.

Depends on your definition of "financial stake". I make money off my addons. It doesn't pay my rent, but it does pay for my monthly subscription, some snacky food and sometimes for a little hardware upgrade. Considering it essentially sustains my wow "habit" even when I'm not playing (I rarely raid and have no one to level with currently), I think it's a valid "financial stake".