Quantcast
WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users - Page 27 - WoWInterface
Thread Tools Display Modes
04-16-09, 05:42 PM   #521
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Raventiger View Post
Ok smart guy, what happens when WM drives those sites out of business because they can't pay their bills either? Assuming that those sites don't do what Curse and WOWInterface have done and simply block WM.
Another will come and takes it place. You really think sites are irreplaceable?

I'm not painting WM has the white knight either. It's definitely has some spiders in its closet, but people used it for a purpose: it was simple, easy to use and it got the job done in the least amount of time with the least amount of intrusion (eg: ad intrusion, clicks). Anybody out to take up the slack has a lot to live up to, but it certainly isn't impossible.

Anyway. My point was don't pull "fine, we'll just close! How do you like that?" card. It's dumb. It's a bluff, and I called it.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 05:47 PM   #522
Raventiger
A Cyclonian
 
Raventiger's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by guice View Post
Another will come and takes it place. You really think sites are irreplaceable?

I'm not painting WM has the white knight either. It's definitely has some spiders in its closet, but people used it for a purpose: it was simple, easy to use and it got the job done in the least amount of time with the least amount of intrusion (eg: ad intrusion, clicks). Anybody out to take up the slack has a lot to live up to, but it certainly isn't impossible.

Anyway. My point was don't pull "fine, we'll just close! How do you like that?" card. It's dumb. It's a bluff, and I called it.

No sites are not irreplaceable. Neither does the cash to maintain those sites grow on trees. So in the situation you present, sites that don't block WM simply go under due to WM's leeching and some other poor bugger puts a site up and has to pay WM bills instead.

Here's a novel idea, how about WM paying their bills and using their own bandwidth? Problem solved.

and it wasn't a we'll close our site down threat/bluff or anything else. It was a question based on the fact that due to the WM blocking, WM can no longer leech bandwidth from Curse/WOWInterface. Now if WM wasn't blocked and this site and Curse simply closed down, WM users would be in exactly the same situation as they are now. Actually no that's wrong WM users are in a better situation now, because at least they can still come here and get access to their mods.

Last edited by Raventiger : 04-16-09 at 05:50 PM.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 05:49 PM   #523
Yhor
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Yhor's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,077
Originally Posted by guice View Post

Anyway. My point was don't pull "fine, we'll just close! How do you like that?" card. It's dumb. It's a bluff, and I called it.
It wasn't anything more than a rhetorical question, you're the one who made it personal, not to Cairenn, or even WoWI, but to those of us who have come to think of WoWI as 'the White Knight'. They do an outstanding job at running this site, and for someone to say they're easily replaceable is insulting.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 05:51 PM   #524
Tekkub
Featured Artist
 
Tekkub's Avatar
Featured
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 960
Originally Posted by Raventiger View Post
Ok smart guy, what happens when WM drives those sites out of business because they can't pay their bills either?
Well isn't that clear? WM drives everyone else out of business and is left as the only addon host!
__________________
I have reached enlightment.
Thank you bacon!
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 05:52 PM   #525
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Raventiger View Post
No sites are not irreplaceable. Neither does the cash to maintain those sites grow on trees. So in the situation you present, sites that don't block WM simply go under due to WM's leeching and some other poor bugger puts a site up and has to pay WM bills instead.

Here's a novel idea, how about WM paying their bills and using their own bandwidth? Problem solved.
You apparently seeing only side of the coin here. How about this? Building a system that makes it impossible for WM to leach the bandwidth that it does? How about building an API to access add-on information? Hosting the files on a CND who's sole purpose on the internet is to distribute files? At, I might add, a traditionally much lower costs than the average webhosts.

And, to be quite honest, my ideas may not be the best or even only solution. There are always solutions that we can't see. Dolby, himself, admitted to not looking into CDNs. It may be the very solution he's been looking for all these years. Or it may not. /shrug. I don't know the site statistics to say.

Still. The point here isn't to "make WM Pay!" but to build a business model where these "leaches" aren't a problem. You sound like Newspapers: make everybody pay for news, that way they can stay in business!
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 05:53 PM   #526
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
It wasn't anything more than a rhetorical question, you're the one who made it personal, not to Cairenn, or even WoWI, but to those of us who have come to think of WoWI as 'the White Knight'. They do an outstanding job at running this site, and for someone to say they're easily replaceable is insulting.
My apologies if I took it the wrong way. I admit, I did skip around in the forums. I saw her single post with that single comment. I commented on it, out of context of the posts prior to that.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:03 PM   #527
jakkal
A Kobold Labourer
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Raventiger View Post
Here's a novel idea, how about WM paying their bills and using their own bandwidth? Problem solved.
Isn't that what they tried to do to begin with and people still complained?:

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
When they first started they would scrape the legimate sites for addons then upload them to their own site in addition to deep-linking from the sites;
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:07 PM   #528
Raventiger
A Cyclonian
 
Raventiger's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 36
Originally Posted by guice View Post
My apologies if I took it the wrong way. I admit, I did skip around in the forums. I saw her single post with that single comment. I commented on it, out of context of the posts prior to that.
My apologies if my remarks were out of line. Personally I'm more than a little bit fed up with the attacks on this site and it's admins, and that's how I took your post.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:08 PM   #529
Tekkub
Featured Artist
 
Tekkub's Avatar
Featured
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 960
Originally Posted by jakkal View Post
Isn't that what they tried to do to begin with and people still complained?:
Well they can't just up and host anything they want to, it's a copyright violation. If they want to host addons that aren't licensed for them to do so without getting permission first, then they have to win over the authors to get permission.
__________________
I have reached enlightment.
Thank you bacon!
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:14 PM   #530
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Raventiger View Post
My apologies if my remarks were out of line. Personally I'm more than a little bit fed up with the attacks on this site and it's admins, and that's how I took your post.
Apology accepted. I know the admins of the site. I've even personally met Dolby (or was it Kudane? lol). It's been so many years, and it was merely in passing at an SOE Convention. More a "ah! So you're the face behind X" on both sides.

Either case, the admins do their best for the users here. The site is very well designed and very clean (much cleaner now they took out all the ugly "WoW-esque" borders and crap). You can't say the same for any other UI site out there, so far.

I'm not trying to attack anybody. I did come off, initially, a little harsh by the actions they have taken. I still disagree with them, but have calmed down through simple discussion since then. Dolby has picked up a few things from this post; I only hope a few of them were suggestions I've made. Eh, doesn't really matter. As long as WoWI keeps improving and, hopefully, either unblocks WM or outdoes them. I will still remain critical of any solution that ties you to one site -- that was my key reason for using WM.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:15 PM   #531
Vyper
A Rage Talon Dragon Guard
 
Vyper's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by guice View Post
Still. The point here isn't to "make WM Pay!" but to build a business model where these "leaches" aren't a problem. You sound like Newspapers: make everybody pay for news, that way they can stay in business!
No ones saying "make WM pay!" They are just saying "We won't/can't pay from WM". It's interesting you bring up newspapers though, because that is actually an excellent analogy. Look at it this way, WoWI is the New York Times, but nicer. They distribute a weekly newspaper, which all can submit content to. Of course, paper isn't free, so they have to buy it. They recoup this space by selling advertising space in their paper, this way, they can give it away free. Along comes WoWMatrix. It also wants to distribute the news. So it steals a bunch of WoWI's paper, prints the stuff that the community has submitted to WoWI on it (but organizes it better), but replaces WoWIs adds with it's own, and gives nothing back to WoWI. Go figure, this paper theft is a major drain on WoWI's resources, and they hire a security guard to stop the paper theft.
Now the WoWMatrix users are angry because WoWI's security guard is stopping WoWMatrix from stealing paper and printing their (better organized paper), stubbornly refusing to recognize that, at the rate things were going WoWI would be unable to buy paper for themselves or WoWMatrix, ending the show for everybody.

Originally Posted by jakkal View Post
Isn't that what they tried to do to begin with and people still complained?:
That's because they were taking addons with no-redistribution clauses. If they had stuck to addons whose licenses allow for redistribution (e.g. GPL/BSD), it would not have been a problem.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:22 PM   #532
Yhor
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Yhor's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,077
Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
No ones saying "make WM pay!" They are just saying "We won't/can't pay from WM". It's interesting you bring up newspapers though, because that is actually an excellent analogy. Look at it this way, WoWI is the New York Times, but nicer. They distribute a weekly newspaper, which all can submit content to. Of course, paper isn't free, so they have to buy it. They recoup this space by selling advertising space in their paper, this way, they can give it away free. Along comes WoWMatrix. It also wants to distribute the news. So it steals a bunch of WoWI's paper, prints the stuff that the community has submitted to WoWI on it (but organizes it better), but replaces WoWIs adds with it's own, and gives nothing back to WoWI. Go figure, this paper theft is a major drain on WoWI's resources, and they hire a security guard to stop the paper theft.
Now the WoWMatrix users are angry because WoWI's security guard is stopping WoWMatrix from stealing paper and printing their (better organized paper), stubbornly refusing to recognize that, at the rate things were going WoWI would be unable to buy paper for themselves or WoWMatrix, ending the show for everybody.


That's because they were taking addons with no-redistribution clauses. If they had stuck to addons whose licenses allow for redistribution (e.g. GPL/BSD), it would not have been a problem.

By far, the best analogy I've seen yet... and I hate analogies.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:23 PM   #533
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
[snip] Along comes WoWMatrix. [snip]
You mean Google News. ^_^
Now you see how my analogy worked.

To Google's credit, and discredit of WM a bit, Google didn't re-print the entire article. WM works a little different in that WM is able to display all the relevant information in a quick tiny little spot, allowing the user to quickly glance over the list and hit 'Update' without having to visit the site.

But, I do, on occasion, click on "Visit official site" and get annoyed with there isn't such a link on some add-ons didn't have such a link.

However, what puzzles me most of all isn't WoWI's response, but the authors. WM allowed users to install SO MANY add-ons so efficiently. The authors should be *****ing at WoWI, too! The authors should be more worried about getting their add-ons known and out there...complaining because WM made their add-ons easier to get? I'm baffled.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:26 PM   #534
Cairenn
Credendo Vides
 
Cairenn's Avatar
Premium Member
WoWInterface Admin
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 7,111
Originally Posted by guice View Post
Not being rude here, but the truth is this: I, and everybody else, would be disappointed. UICGaming would be ecstatic! There is always somebody out there willing to fill the void.
<snip>
If *Interface closed doors; there will be another site to take up the slack. The authors will flock to UICGaming, WorldofWar.net, or any other site that's hosting add-ons.

Please, don't ask the questions you're not prepared for the answers. Try not to take this the wrong way; but you're hardly the white knight of Add-on distribution. You're just another site. Yes, a well ran site, with a good archive of add-ons in a simple to find manor, but still just another site.

Who said I didn't want to hear the answer? Who said I was trying to claim to be the white knight? I certainly didn't, on either count.

Originally Posted by guice View Post
Another will come and takes it place. You really think sites are irreplaceable?
<snip>
Anyway. My point was don't pull "fine, we'll just close! How do you like that?" card. It's dumb. It's a bluff, and I called it.

I didn't say we were irreplaceable. And you can't call a bluff when there was no bluff to call.

Originally Posted by guice View Post
My apologies if I took it the wrong way. I admit, I did skip around in the forums. I saw her single post with that single comment. I commented on it, out of context of the posts prior to that.

Guice, I have to admit, from having known you and worked with you (so to speak) for as many years as I have, I have been absolutely flabbergasted and hurt at the way you've been attacking us as a whole and me personally.

Anyway, to my point .... If you hadn't bothered to skip around, but had instead actually read the rest of the posts, you would have seen this:

Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
The point I'm making here, though, is that a lot of people are mad at us for blocking WowMatrix. Would they be mad at us if instead we were just plain gone? The result, for those that are mad at us, would be the same: WowMatrix would be trying to find somewhere else to get the mods. So why in one scenario are they mad at us, but not in the other? (Yes, I know, I'm presuming here. I'm presuming they wouldn't be mad at us if we were just plain closed. If they'd be mad at us for that, too, then .... hell if I know, I just couldn't even begin to understand that.)
It wasn't a bluff. It wasn't a "fine, I'm taking my ball and going home". It was me saying that the end result, as far as the WM users were concerned, would be the same. We block WM, their users can't download from this site. We go out of business because we can't pay the bills that they incurred, their users can't download from our site. In the first case, we're being vilified. Why? Would we be equally vilified in the second? If we went out of business, would everyone still be all mad at us?

Yet in the first case, the users CAN still get the mods from our site, because we are still in existence. So why are we being vilified?

Last edited by Cairenn : 04-16-09 at 06:33 PM.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:38 PM   #535
Yhor
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Yhor's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,077
Originally Posted by guice View Post
However, what puzzles me most of all isn't WoWI's response, but the authors. WM allowed users to install SO MANY add-ons so efficiently. The authors should be *****ing at WoWI, too! The authors should be more worried about getting their add-ons known and out there...complaining because WM made their add-ons easier to get? I'm baffled.
Why? Do you really think authors to be that prideful or do you think that the hassles they had to deal with over WM users were fun and needed to be multiplied?

Also, a general question, on topic.
Why do people think it is WoWI and Curse's 'job' to provide an alternative that does exactly what WM did? They are addon author support sites who happen to encourage addon users to join the community, authors and users both benefit from this. Addon authors have been born from this site because of this and addon authors get valuable (non monetary value) feedback and ideas. WoWI provides an outlet for excellent support and community features, and happen to value that enough to protect it. I'm sure part of their reasoning in this current situation was that everyone would see WM for what it was and would find communities (WoWI and Curse) that they could participate in. And, by looking at the traffic in this thread, they were half right. It's too bad that not everyone agrees with people who try to protect their resources.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:41 PM   #536
Vyper
A Rage Talon Dragon Guard
 
Vyper's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by guice View Post
You mean Google News. ^_^
Now you see how my analogy worked.

To Google's credit, and discredit of WM a bit, Google didn't re-print the entire article. WM works a little different in that WM is able to display all the relevant information in a quick tiny little spot, allowing the user to quickly glance over the list and hit 'Update' without having to visit the site.

But, I do, on occasion, click on "Visit official site" and get annoyed with there isn't such a link on some add-ons didn't have such a link.

However, what puzzles me most of all isn't WoWI's response, but the authors. WM allowed users to install SO MANY add-ons so efficiently. The authors should be *****ing at WoWI, too! The authors should be more worried about getting their add-ons known and out there...complaining because WM made their add-ons easier to get? I'm baffled.
The problem with calling WM Google News, is Google News does not print on the New York Times paper, they distribute their own news through the internet. The New York Times does not wind up footing the bill for Google New's "paper" (literally bandwidth in this case.

There are several reasons authors don't like WoWMatrix (this is understanding and recognizing it is an easier way to update).
1.) Simplicity, it is much easier to keep track of things when I know what and from where people are getting my work. Keeping it down to WoWI lets me easily control that.
2.) WoWMatrix often modified addon files before installing them. I have seen several bugs out there associated only with WoWMatrix users, because WM was fooling with the files. From time to time it also distributed old versions, which could wreak equal havoc.
3.) (related to 2) While a moot point now, WoWMatrix was removing addons in-game donation requests. Go figure, some authors didn't appreciate that.
4.) (Possibly most important) It was not an opt-in service. Or even an opt-out. When I create a work, it is my right to determine how (or if) that work is distributed. WoWMatrix took that right away. They provided addons without permission, and ignored authors protests. From my perspective (not WoWIs) this is the worst.

All my works are under the GPL or BSD, meaning WoWMatrix can redistribute at will, but that was my choice, and to me it's precious. Other authors make different choices, and I suspect to them having that choice is equally precious.

Edit: I'm off to dinner now, but I will happily discuss this further later. Hopefully you can see my point of view.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:42 PM   #537
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
Guice, I have to admit, from having known you and worked with you (so to speak) for as many years as I have, I have been absolutely flabbergasted and hurt at the way you've been attacking us as a whole and me personally.
Aww. Now you're making me feel bad. Anyway. It was the heat of the moment. Mostly cause the "reasons" list I initially read in the first post was very ... um ... should I say "sympathy" oriented. Everything listed wasn't "illegal" or "wrong" except the "remotely hosting user's add-ons." The moment somebody uses a sympathy argument on me, I grow cold. My apologies, again. It's a personality trait of mine I don't wish to remove.


Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
It wasn't a bluff. It wasn't a "fine, I'm taking my ball and going home". It was me saying that the end result, as far as the WM users were concerned, would be the same. We block WM, their users can't download from this site. We go out of business because we can't pay the bills that they incurred, their users can't download from our site. In the first case, we're being vilified. Why? Would we be equally vilified in the second? If we went out of business, would everyone still be all mad at us?

Yet in the first case, the users CAN still get the mods from our site, because we are still in existence. So why are we being vilified?

Why? It's because I don't believe its "WM's fault." They were accessing publicly accessible links. They were going around the HTML for the users to provide them an extremely efficient way of updating their add-ons. The WM builders saw an opportunity, and they took it. The response, over a year later, is "ban them." Yes, I read that you've attempted to contact them. But, again, I don't blame WM for using what's already available. It's just an oversight in the original design of the whole site.

Why do we create captchas? Why do some sites force people to register before they can download? Why do we create sites asking for an email, then emailing a time limited link to download some application?

All these are attempts to prevent bots from scanning, siphoning, or automating tasks we expect a human of doing. There are certainly tasks that cannot be done if we required a person to verify themselves around every turn. For these tasks, you have to either play nice with bots, or play mean with people. You can't go the other way on either of them -- it's a lose/lose situation. It's the nature of the internet! You don't know who's a bot and who's human. I think it's a benefit. Naturally others see this as an issue.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:46 PM   #538
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Yhor View Post
Why? Do you really think authors to be that prideful or do you think that the hassles they had to deal with over WM users were fun and needed to be multiplied?

Also, a general question, on topic.
Why do people think it is WoWI and Curse's 'job' to provide an alternative that does exactly what WM did? They are addon author support sites who happen to encourage addon users to join the community, authors and users both benefit from this. Addon authors have been born from this site because of this and addon authors get valuable (non monetary value) feedback and ideas. WoWI provides an outlet for excellent support and community features, and happen to value that enough to protect it. I'm sure part of their reasoning in this current situation was that everyone would see WM for what it was and would find communities (WoWI and Curse) that they could participate in. And, by looking at the traffic in this thread, they were half right. It's too bad that not everyone agrees with people who try to protect their resources.

Well, maybe if authors or interface sites were able to work with the "automated" WM a little cleaner, it wouldn't have been a problem. ^_^
I think the author's dissatisfaction was slightly misplaced.


As for your other question about the clients? They made the first move, that's why. When the users become accustomed to something, you expect the ones enforcing to compensate. Especially since they reasons they are blocking isn't illegal or "wrong" by any huge extent.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:47 PM   #539
guice
A Cobalt Mageweaver
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
The problem with calling WM Google News, is Google News does not print on the New York Times paper, they distribute their own news through the internet. The New York Times does not wind up footing the bill for Google New's "paper" (literally bandwidth in this case.
You can't defend print papers. I won't go that route. In essence: they are doomed, print is out. Internet is in. I was talking about internet newspapers (eg: NYT "pay-walling" all their news articles online).

I'll respond to your other points, if there's need, in another post.
  Reply With Quote
04-16-09, 06:52 PM   #540
Vyper
A Rage Talon Dragon Guard
 
Vyper's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 317
Originally Posted by guice View Post
You can't defend print papers. I won't go that route. In essence: they are doomed, print is out. Internet is in. I was talking about internet newspapers (eg: NYT "pay-walling" all their news articles online).

I'll respond to your other points, if there's need, in another post.
You are completely missing the point. Print newspapers need no defending, they were a perfectly valid business, that is becoming less practical, much like the stagecoach. You focus on an irrelevancies, while completely ignoring the core of my argument.

Edit: As for my other points, you asked why authors weren't upset about WM going away, I told you. What you do with it from there is up to you.
  Reply With Quote

WoWInterface » Site Forums » News » WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off