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04-17-09, 08:17 PM   #561
Bomyne
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What the WM supporters fail to realize is that Curse and WoWI could have simply taken their sites offline when WM started to get out of hand. They didn't. They decided to fight the theft of their bandwidth.

WoWI and Curse are once again protecting the community... both authors and users.
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04-18-09, 12:56 AM   #562
sconley
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I've used Wowmatrix for over a year with very few instances of getting old versions of addons. I just installed the Curse Client. It trashed several of my addons. It appears that Curse has older versions of some addons than does Wowinterface and probably vice versa.

One of the issues mentioned by Curse/Wowinterface was that users were not seeing ads from their sites, the users were seeing ads from Wowmatrix. Guess what? The Curse Client does not show ads. How will curse pay for their servers and bandwidth if users don't see the ads which bring in revenue for Curse? I know I won't be going to the Curse site since the Curse Client lets me see what I need.

Sounds to me the real problem is one of money. I wouldn't be suprised to see Curse add ads to their client.

I wish I could say something about the Wowinterface client but that program is going to take too long for me to setup. I'm having to look at each addon and determine it's ID. The wowinterface client doesn't show me enough info on what it thinks is the correct addon ID so I'm having to go their the Wowinterface site for each addon.

It's 3:00 AM where I live. I hope the post above is coherent (probably not since I'm falling asleep at the keyboard.
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04-18-09, 01:03 AM   #563
Kaelten
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Originally Posted by sconley View Post
Sounds to me the real problem is one of money. I wouldn't be suprised to see Curse add ads to their client.
Don't be suprised. It'll be happening within the next few weeks when we disable the premium preview.
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04-18-09, 01:13 AM   #564
Bomyne
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Originally Posted by sconley View Post
I've used Wowmatrix for over a year with very few instances of getting old versions of addons. I just installed the Curse Client. It trashed several of my addons. It appears that Curse has older versions of some addons than does Wowinterface and probably vice versa.

One of the issues mentioned by Curse/Wowinterface was that users were not seeing ads from their sites, the users were seeing ads from Wowmatrix. Guess what? The Curse Client does not show ads. How will curse pay for their servers and bandwidth if users don't see the ads which bring in revenue for Curse? I know I won't be going to the Curse site since the Curse Client lets me see what I need.

Sounds to me the real problem is one of money. I wouldn't be suprised to see Curse add ads to their client.

I wish I could say something about the Wowinterface client but that program is going to take too long for me to setup. I'm having to look at each addon and determine it's ID. The wowinterface client doesn't show me enough info on what it thinks is the correct addon ID so I'm having to go their the Wowinterface site for each addon.

It's 3:00 AM where I live. I hope the post above is coherent (probably not since I'm falling asleep at the keyboard.
Don'tforget that WoWI's client is changing soon when they release the new one
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04-18-09, 07:45 AM   #565
sconley
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Originally Posted by Bomyne View Post
Don'tforget that WoWI's client is changing soon when they release the new one
The current wowinterface updater is dated 02-28-2008. That's 13.5 months old.

From other posts on Wowinterface it appers to me that the programmer working on the wowinterface updater is doing this in his spare time: he is in grad school. Nothing wrong with that but shouldn't Wowinterface have waited until the new program is finished before locking users out of the ability to run wowmatrix for updates? My fear is that there won't be an updated version anytime soon.

Since Curse and Wowinterface were able to come together to address the Wowmatrix issues, can they also come together to create one unified addon updater that will protect their revenue and bandwidth? Being a former programmer, I realize that is easier said than done.

My current thoughts are to manually update my addon's myself. Go directly to the source site for the addon (instead of depending on Curse and/or Wowinterface to have the most recent version): I realize that Wowinterface may be the official source, but not always.

I'm very frustraited at this point. I'm frustriated at Curse, Wowinterface, and Wowmatrix. If those 3 entities were really concerned about the "Wow Community", they would work together to make life easier for the community. If Wowmtrix didn't want to play fair, Curse and Wowinterface should have cooperated by creating a single updater program that would meet their individual requirements.

Last edited by sconley : 04-18-09 at 07:48 AM.
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04-18-09, 07:48 AM   #566
Bomyne
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Nothing wrong with that but shouldn't Wowinterface have waited until the new program is finished before locking users out of the ability to run wowmatrix for updates?
Not really. What users seem to fail to grasp is that WoWMatrix is doing damage.

It's using a LOT of bandwidth from Curse and WoWInterface without displaying ads for Curse and WoWInterface. Aka using bandwidth with no way for Curse and WoWI to recoup the losses.

UI Manager thread - Apparently theres only one or two things holding it back from a beta release

Last edited by Bomyne : 04-18-09 at 07:52 AM.
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04-18-09, 08:01 AM   #567
sconley
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Originally Posted by Kaelten View Post
Don't be suprised. It'll be happening within the next few weeks when we disable the premium preview.
I'd be willing to pay for the premium version if it worked with all of my addons.

I'd be willing to pay a fee to Wowinterface if their new updater worked with all of my addons.

My definition of working with all of my addons means that the updater would go to the source of the addon and pull the latest version instead of relying on the addon author to post the update. Oh wait, that is what Wowmatrix was doing. I guess you'd better work out a deal with the addon authors. Now that's a thought: Curse and Wowinterface could have agreements with the addon authors such that the end result is that an addon is always up-to-date on whichever site the author uses (Curse or Wowinterface), even if the author uses both sites.

I haven't read anything about the WowUI site. They do have updated addons. I guess I'll have to go to 3 sites to make sure I get the latest version. This could get out of hand very fast. I wish Wowmatrix and the other sites could have worked out a deal. I see no comments on the Wowmatrix web site. The only comments I have seen are from Curse and Wowinterface. Would be nice to hear their side of the story. I'm sending Wowmatrix and e-mail now, requesting information.

I'll end this post the same as many of my previous ones....
I'm very frustraited with Wowmatrix, Curse, and Wowinterface: not necessarily in that order.

Last edited by sconley : 04-18-09 at 08:03 AM.
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04-18-09, 08:14 AM   #568
sconley
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Originally Posted by Cairenn View Post
...If you were previously using WowMatrix to keep your addons updated, please use our official updaters (WoWInterface, Curse). You may also mark addons as favorites on both WoWInterface and Curse in order to be alerted when they are updated. ...
In re-reading posts in this thread, I came across this sentence in one which I had previously overlooked. Using the "favorites" feature of Curse, Wowinterface, WowUI, etc, may actually be a good work around for me. Thanks for the advice. Sometimes the simplist solutions are the best.
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04-18-09, 08:24 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by sconley View Post
I see no comments on the Wowmatrix web site. The only comments I have seen are from Curse and Wowinterface. Would be nice to hear their side of the story. I'm sending Wowmatrix and e-mail now, requesting information.
Yes, WM doesn't communicate with the community. You have to harass - I mean ask - them privately to get any sort of answer, if they answer at all. Please let us know if you hear anything.
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04-18-09, 08:41 AM   #570
Falter
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I keep hearing about bandwidth theft and WM.
And this is a totally valid point.
Let's make sure it goes both ways.

Users shouldn't be bashing content providers, but let's not be in denial here.
Users were doing what they do best - USING.
Content providers weren't providing a service they could use.
Updaters were.

Authors want the community. Users want the updater.
Authors needs Sites. Sites need Users (and Authors). Guilds need Users.
Authors, Sites, Guilds, Users need updater.

This is all a lot more parasymbiotic than forum wars might make it out to be. But if we're arguing to assign blame, everyone needs to line up for a nice big bite of the sh*t sandwich. I'll go second!
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04-18-09, 08:44 AM   #571
Hellarion
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I personally think WM is getting off easy with just being blocked from the sites..(in a nutshell)

WoWI, Curse, and WoWinc could most likely bring them up on some legal charges if they so chose to

Bandwidth theft is piracy...read the Digital Millennium Copyright Act or something along those lines..you'll probably find things there that show what WM was doing..was in fact illegal towards the sites and the addon authors...maybe not all things but alot

Guess respect doesn't go as far as it used to huh?

Other than that...how is everyone
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04-18-09, 08:45 AM   #572
Bomyne
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Originally Posted by Falter View Post
I keep hearing about bandwidth theft and WM.
And this is a totally valid point.
Let's make sure it goes both ways.

Users shouldn't be bashing content providers, but let's not be in denial here.
Users were doing what they do best - USING.
Content providers weren't providing a service they could use.
Updaters were.

Authors want the community. Users want the updater.
Authors needs Sites. Sites need Users (and Authors). Guilds need Users.
Authors, Sites, Guilds, Users need updater.

This is all a lot more parasymbiotic than forum wars might make it out to be. But if we're arguing to assign blame, everyone needs to line up for a nice big bite of the sh*t sandwich. I'll go second!

But above all that is money. Money doesn't grow on trees.

It would have worked out if WoWMatrix has WORKED with WoWI and Curse to find a peaceful solution. They didn't.
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04-18-09, 08:51 AM   #573
guice
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Originally Posted by Hellarion View Post
I personally think WM is getting off easy with just being blocked from the sites..(in a nutshell)

WoWI, Curse, and WoWinc could most likely bring them up on some legal charges if they so chose to

Bandwidth theft is piracy...read the Digital Millennium Copyright Act or something along those lines..you'll probably find things there that show what WM was doing..was in fact illegal towards the sites and the addon authors...maybe not all things but alot

Guess respect doesn't go as far as it used to huh?

Other than that...how is everyone
I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there is no case here. WM isn't "stealing" any bandwidth here. They are using very publicly available links and webpages. Now, I do know of many cases that do *try* to go this route, many of them are pure money grabs or publicity stunts, but lawyers have tried. Bandwidth "theft" isn't "theft" and it isn't "piracy." That is definitely a fact.
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04-18-09, 08:52 AM   #574
Falter
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Originally Posted by Bomyne View Post
But above all that is money. Money doesn't grow on trees.

It would have worked out if WoWMatrix has WORKED with WoWI and Curse to find a peaceful solution. They didn't.
And how much money will WoWI have if all the userbase moves to Curse's client before the WoWI one is finished? They will move to what works and they will stay there until it dies. Reference WoWAceUpdater and WoWMatrix.

So, if you wanna talk business rationale, I don't think you've invalidated my post. I'm not curse-ing (ooh, pun) at WoWI here, just expressing my concern that their userbase will fall because all the customers will have moved to a competitors product. I respect the guys at Curse and love their work. WoWAce was the best, but CurseForge << WoWAce. And I bet they know it. And the odd thing was that updaters were kinda born on WoWAce, originally hosted by WoWI and WoWAce went so far as to put links and guides to finding and using updaters on their site. Now they are the devil.

But anyway...

As for WoWMatrix, I totally agree. Why do you think I went second in taking my bite of the sh*t sandwich of blame? They get the highest honor, in my opinion, by going first there.
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04-18-09, 08:58 AM   #575
guice
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On the subject of "bandwidth theft", purely talking in the terms of "theft" cause the ads are blocked. Here's a related article from a couple years ago about companies trying to block Firefox because it can block the ads: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070817/143014.shtml

It's quite relevant if you want to try to use the "blocks ads" argument against WM.
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04-18-09, 09:58 AM   #576
Hellarion
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Originally Posted by guice View Post
I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there is no case here. WM isn't "stealing" any bandwidth here. They are using very publicly available links and webpages. Now, I do know of many cases that do *try* to go this route, many of them are pure money grabs or publicity stunts, but lawyers have tried. Bandwidth "theft" isn't "theft" and it isn't "piracy." That is definitely a fact.

While no lawyer myself ..as of yet...piracy is piracy. Piracy can mean many different forms of theft or acts of thieving. If you took the time to look at the DMCA that i mentioned you would see that while bandwidth theft is not directly mentioned, there are other things directly linked to it that are.

You are right about the links and webpages being very public..to look at and only to be used in the way of the site's host or supporters see fit. Its been said many times before that this site and it's sister sites suffer bandwidth problems due to WM. To me and to nearly most all judges..that doesn't mean much, but throw in that your site is ad/premium user supported and the excessive use of bandwidth by a non-authorized party is causing your site/company a loss in income/money/support would be all they needed to hear.

Carbonite is trademarked/copyrighted to Carbon Based Creations, LLC....which means that any use of this addon without their consent is piracy. Actually they wouldn't even have to copyright it..in 1989 measures were taken to protect things like this where lets say Tekkhub didn't copyright his addons...if someone were to re distribute his addons without his consent. While not copyrighted..he would still be protected.

By agreeing to host the authors addons and in return the site allowing authors to upload addons.. whether it be email, verbal, or and actual written contract, these things have to happen. WM had neither. So by saying there was no room for legal action in this situation...you are wrong. (after re reading the post..u didn't actually say that but i got the impression that's what you're getting at)

I can pull books out for more clearer explanations if needed


ps
as for the publicity stunt thing...i believe that if ZAM or any of its websites really wanted to take legal actions they would have when the problem first arose. The point of my first post was just to bring the fact that they didn't/haven't to the front. This post is basically letting you see what i see
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04-18-09, 10:20 AM   #577
Vyper
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Originally Posted by guice View Post
On the subject of "bandwidth theft", purely talking in the terms of "theft" cause the ads are blocked. Here's a related article from a couple years ago about companies trying to block Firefox because it can block the ads: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20070817/143014.shtml

It's quite relevant if you want to try to use the "blocks ads" argument against WM.
From that article:
Just like with the full vs. partial RSS debate, people need to get past the idea that every single visitor needs to be monetized. Instead, recognize the indirect benefits of having more users. Even if a Firefox user doesn't buy something or click on an ad, he or she may tell someone else about the site and they may click on an ad or buy something.
The problem with this is that a larger user base can provide these benefits, but that doesn't mean it always does. In order for something like this to be a benefit, it must generate more revenue than it is costing the site in question, which WoWM was not.

Yes I know, you knew where the addons were coming from, and from time to time visited the site to view change logs, etc, but you have already demonstrated enough computer knowledge to set yourself apart from the average user. Whether you realize it or not, your average user simply loads up the program, reads the descriptions it provides, and click-click their done, many likely never even realizing it doesn't actually come from WoWM (yes I know WoWM declares on their page it doesn't come from them, but your average user does not read the FAQs). These friends their telling others about the site? They are telling them about WoWM not WoWI, and these friends almost always have the same usage pattern.

If WoWM was bringing in enough direct traffic to make up for their indirect traffic, we wouldn't be having this problem.

I also note your article mentions the original site is down due to the "slashdot effect". That is exactly what WoWM does to WoWI on patch days (except WoWM does it with indirect visitors).
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04-18-09, 10:23 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by Hellarion View Post
While no lawyer myself ..as of yet...piracy is piracy. Piracy can mean many different forms of theft or acts of thieving. If you took the time to look at the DMCA that i mentioned you would see that while bandwidth theft is not directly mentioned, there are other things directly linked to it that are.
I agree with you, but unfortunately, the courts do not. The bandwidth theft argument has been held as invalid several times now.
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04-18-09, 11:08 AM   #579
Petrah
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Originally Posted by Hellarion View Post
hear.

Carbonite is trademarked/copyrighted to Carbon Based Creations, LLC....which means that any use of this addon without their consent is piracy. Actually they wouldn't even have to copyright it..in 1989 measures were taken to protect things like this where lets say Tekkhub didn't copyright his addons...if someone were to re distribute his addons without his consent. While not copyrighted..he would still be protected.
As soon as an authors original work is in viewable or tangible format, by law it automatically becomes copyrighted. However, in order to take someone to court for copyright infringement, the work must be registered with the U.S. Copyright Office Library of Congress.
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04-18-09, 12:06 PM   #580
guice
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Originally Posted by Vyper View Post
Yes I know, you knew where the addons were coming from, and from time to time visited the site to view change logs, etc, but you have already demonstrated enough computer knowledge to set yourself apart from the average user. Whether you realize it or not, your average user simply loads up the program, reads the descriptions it provides, and click-click their done, many likely never even realizing it doesn't actually come from WoWM (yes I know WoWM declares on their page it doesn't come from them, but your average user does not read the FAQs). These friends their telling others about the site? They are telling them about WoWM not WoWI, and these friends almost always have the same usage pattern.
This slightly contradicts your earlier statement that WM has caused more support issues. If the average user is "never even realized it doesn't actually come from WoWM" then wouldn't support issues be trafficked through WM? Heck, maybe that's why the contact form has often fell on deaf ears? They get so many emails, they have problems finding legitimate emails.

Back on the subject of bandwidth theft - you can actually lay some blame with WoWI for having troubles setting up a system, initially, that allowed such services to exist or take advantage of the open access to the files. While I don't agree at all with locking up files, it is a potential route, and one they decided to take. However, I feel in the long term it's going to bite them back if they don't figure out a better system other than "lock them out." Once the WoWI add-on client is released, an API will have to be opened up to allow the client to work. Anybody with any bit of technical knowledge will be able to break it down and use that API to their advantage. In this instance, it's not a matter of "if the can" but "is it worth it." ShowEQ lasted years, break after break, attack after attack by SOE, purely on "its worth it (for EQ players)". EQ's technology just did not allow SOE to "fix it" -- all they could do is "block" (and they tried, sometimes tirelessly). WoW, however, solved the "ShowEQ problem" by using technology different. Seamless zones, dynamic loading/unloading gave WoW the edge that just made ShowEQ not worth it anymore (note -- I did say "not worth it" not "impossible" -- it could work, but only at a limited 100 yard range of your character -- not worth it anymore).

Okay, I rattled on long enough here. The point is what I brought up several pages ago; WoWI needs to take the approach of making it "not worth it" or to a point where this "bandwidth piracy" is not a problem or an tax on their servers.
WoWI Client could make it "not worth it" if it can one up the predecessors (not locked into 1 site; updates without trashing your add-ons; doesn't install its own add-ons for what ever purpose; user-friend [not ad friend] interface; and most important: simple).
However, I think just re-arranging the file structure may prove to be more beneficial in the long term. Make it so files aren't hosted directly on the WoWI site; provide an open API and let the community build the add-on clients (cause we already know they will). In a way, almost what WoWAces was -- the only reason it never really took off, imo, is lack of usability (the site) for the authors. The "Wiki" approach isn't the most user-friendly or author-friendly approach.

Last edited by guice : 04-18-09 at 12:12 PM.
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