Quantcast
AeroWow - Page 2 - WoWInterface
Thread Tools Display Modes
10-16-09, 05:46 AM   #21
Slakah
A Molten Giant
 
Slakah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 863
A guy whose boots get him out of flames 8% faster is the same as the experienced guy whose instincts tell him when to respond 8% quicker than Johnny Tuskarr. Know what I mean?
erm... no it's not, theres a difference between increased reaction speed, and increased run speed. Now if tuskarrs vitality gave +8% to reaction times then you'd be correct.

The simple fact of the matter is that what truly makes people elite players cannot be captured in a gear score, an enchantment, a pile of steaming theorycraft, etc. It's instinct. Period. Numbers, gear scores (and their mods) do nothing else than serve purposes of vanity when it all comes down to it. Talking about them as facts or absolutes shows a very incomplete method of analysis, which to me is almost completely irrelevant to anything that takes place in the real game.
You can be the best tank in the world but if your a level 55 deathknight then your still not going to tank ICC. The ability to choose the correct gear/spec to play optimally is as much of an asset as being able to avoid fire and not being a complete Dilbert during an encounter.

Last edited by Slakah : 10-16-09 at 05:54 AM.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 06:10 AM   #22
shkm
A Chromatic Dragonspawn
 
shkm's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by Republic View Post
[...]
Oof. So although you have the initial nerve to argue about the usefulness of this enchant -- in your signature belittling style -- you fall back to it not mattering when you realise that your words have no weight.

If I recall correctly, we were not talking about what the game is about, what makes a good player, gear scores, RNG, your fabled "human condition", fire resistance gear in MC, your favourite tanks or even if a run speed enchant is going to greatly impact your gameplay one way or another. You challenged an opinion on a run speed enchant relative to other enchants. That is a small, relatively insignificant thing that may or may not make a small difference to your character's overall ability. In other words, you can sit on your high horse and claim that skill is ultimately all that matters, but you made this enquiry in the first place.

I don't think anyone will deny that a player with no natural gameplay ability will not be a good player no matter what his character is wearing. Does this also imply that a good player cannot improve himself through min-maxing? No; in fact, it may be the only way left to go.

Whether you like it or not, WoW is a series of computations taking place on devices which understand no more than electrical pulses. Stating that numbers have no bearing on a virtual world is delusional.
__________________
Quit WoW again on 17/04/2014.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 06:25 AM   #23
sakurakira
A Chromatic Dragonspawn
 
sakurakira's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 151
Originally Posted by Republic View Post
There aren't too many spots in ANY instance where you want your melee dps arriving on the targets before your tank...
I think you might be looking at this too narrowly. There are many raid situations that require movement, and every bit helps. If you aren't hit capped, then perhaps you need Icewalker, or an AP enchant if you're falling behind with your other pieces. But for the constant raider I really think that Tuskarr's Vitality can replace any of those enchants for the utility, for ANY class. I use it on my priest's boots, and I can say that it has saved my life in the Mimiron encounter.
__________________
Arise, my champion!
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 10:48 AM   #24
BWarner
A Black Drake
 
BWarner's Avatar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 87
Originally Posted by Republic View Post
I consider theorycrafting and most of what I read in combat analysis across a few "elitist jerk" type sites to be the stuff that falls out the back end of a horse. -snip-
I agree on a LOT of your points.

"Gear scores" are essentially meaningless - take note of that huge disclaimer I put up there stating the precise reason I used it in this exact instance? I don't have a single "gear score" addon installed, because they're 99% useless in determining how a player will perform in a raid environment. So, I don't really know where the topic of "gear scores" came into play.

A LOT of this game is based on player skill. Let me say this again - No amount of gear, enchants, gems, buffs, or guild tag will make anybody a better player. It won't make them run out of the fire faster, or push their buttons better, or anything.

But to say that numbers are totally irrelevant is, well, ignorant. Theoretical DPS used as a metric (not as an absolute, a ranking, etc.) is a great asset in terms of enabling comparisons.

Additionally, while you're correct in saying that every situation is different every time you come to it, there are many similarities. In Icehowl, you will have to get out of his Charge at some point. On Twins, you will have to run around half the arena to toggle your color.

Additionally, no, runspeed is not required to perform well. But it sure as heck helps in countless situations. And this isn't talking from a numbers perspective, but from experience. And that was my final challenge to those who weren't quite sure of runspeed - try it out, and see how it feels.
__________________


The Warrior Formerly Known As Aerowyn.

http://AeroWow.com/

Last edited by BWarner : 10-16-09 at 10:52 AM.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 12:40 PM   #25
Republic
Paladin
 
Republic's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by Slakah View Post
erm... no it's not, theres a difference between increased reaction speed, and increased run speed. Now if tuskarrs vitality gave +8% to reaction times then you'd be correct.
You have Tuskarr's, I have Icewalker. The bad thing is about to do that thing where he kills things in the very spot we're standing upon. I've been here a billion times and know that when the bad thing flashes green, hell will break loose. You don't see the flash. I begin moving at the point he flashes. You, given your inexperience, are left wondering why I began moving. The hell breaks loose. I am safely out of range. When you realize you are in harm's way, you begin running away (most likely in the opposite direction of the tank that can save you). Your Tuskarr's speed boost gets you within 5 yards of safety before you die. You got closer to safety than that dude we're pugging this with who also didn't have Tuskarr's. Congratulations, my experience saved me and your Tuskarr's allowed you to die in a resurrection-friendly spot. You camp out and watch your screen for the rest of the fight. We had no battle rez to spend on a dps'er. A smart player doesn't need Tuskarr's (for these types of encounters). Get my drift?

Originally Posted by Slakah View Post
You can be the best tank in the world but if your a level 55 deathknight then your still not going to tank ICC. The ability to choose the correct gear/spec to play optimally is as much of an asset as being able to avoid fire and not being a complete Dilbert during an encounter.
I totally agree. Tuskarr's doesn't belong in correctly chosen gear for a tank, at least as a default enchantment. There may be some utility to carrying it on a backup pair of boots or whatever, which I still don't really buy, but nonetheless, it makes no sense to me as a primary enchantment. Your healers increase your survivability. All of your gear should work to increase/support your chosen role (dps, tank, etc.). That's the way it is in 99 situations out of 100

DBM (or similar mods) saves more lives than Tuskarr ever will, and you don't even have to spend mindless hours earning this month's currency to upgrade to marginally better gear to get it.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 12:44 PM   #26
Republic
Paladin
 
Republic's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by shkm View Post
Oof. So although you have the initial nerve to argue about the usefulness of this enchant -- in your signature belittling style -- you fall back to it not mattering when you realise that your words have no weight.
Not exactly chief. I stated my OPINION and have backed away from it since I realiZe it's merely that, OPINION and it sounds as though I'm repeating myself too much. If we were to weigh words here, well, let's not and keep it nice
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 12:46 PM   #27
Petrah
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Petrah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,988
Originally Posted by Republic View Post
You have Tuskarr's, I have Icewalker. The bad thing is about to do that thing where he kills things in the very spot we're standing upon. I've been here a billion times and know that when the bad thing flashes green, hell will break loose. You don't see the flash. I begin moving at the point he flashes. You, given your inexperience, are left wondering why I began moving. The hell breaks loose. I am safely out of range. When you realize you are in harm's way, you begin running away (most likely in the opposite direction of the tank that can save you). Your Tuskarr's speed boost gets you within 5 yards of safety before you die. You got closer to safety than that dude we're pugging this with who also didn't have Tuskarr's. Congratulations, my experience saved me and your Tuskarr's allowed you to die in a resurrection-friendly spot. You camp out and watch your screen for the rest of the fight. We had no battle rez to spend on a dps'er. A smart player doesn't need Tuskarr's (for these types of encounters). Get my drift?



I'm in agreement here... even though how you said it was pretty damn funny.
__________________
♪~ ( ) I My Sonos!
AddOn Authors: If your addon spams the chat box with "Addon v8.3.4.5.3 now loaded!", please add an option to disable it!
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 12:47 PM   #28
Republic
Paladin
 
Republic's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
But to say that numbers are totally irrelevant is, well, ignorant.
Yep, now let's hunt down the person who said that! I believe the issue at hand is the possibility of an 8% movement boost being irrelevant for the purposes you listed, but maybe that's just my take on things. <reads back through thread for confirmation> Nope, that's about the size of it. I did call theorycrafting a steaming pile though, for reasons already mentioned, if that's what you mean
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 12:48 PM   #29
Republic
Paladin
 
Republic's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by Petrah View Post


I'm in agreement here... even though how you said it was pretty damn funny.
ty, tyvm. Shows nightly in the lounge. It's a 2 drink minimum and we might even do some karaoke afterwards!
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 12:55 PM   #30
Petrah
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Petrah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,988
I think theory crafting has its place. It will never help a bad player play better, but it can help a good player play better.

As for the run speed enchant.... if you're not lacking in any of your other necessary stats (meaning, the ones you should have capped are capped) then by all means, use whatever enchant you want. However, if your not capped and I see that pvp enchant on your boots in my raid, you most certainly would be replaced.
__________________
♪~ ( ) I My Sonos!
AddOn Authors: If your addon spams the chat box with "Addon v8.3.4.5.3 now loaded!", please add an option to disable it!
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 01:24 PM   #31
Slakah
A Molten Giant
 
Slakah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 863
Originally Posted by Republic View Post
You have Tuskarr's, I have Icewalker. The bad thing is about to do that thing where he kills things in the very spot we're standing upon. I've been here a billion times and know that when the bad thing flashes green, hell will break loose. You don't see the flash. I begin moving at the point he flashes. You, given your inexperience, are left wondering why I began moving. The hell breaks loose. I am safely out of range. When you realize you are in harm's way, you begin running away (most likely in the opposite direction of the tank that can save you). Your Tuskarr's speed boost gets you within 5 yards of safety before you die. You got closer to safety than that dude we're pugging this with who also didn't have Tuskarr's. Congratulations, my experience saved me and your Tuskarr's allowed you to die in a resurrection-friendly spot. You camp out and watch your screen for the rest of the fight. We had no battle rez to spend on a dps'er. A smart player doesn't need Tuskarr's (for these types of encounters). Get my drift?
All I did was point out that 8% run speed increase is not the same as 8% increase in reaction times as you stated previously.

Again I don't play a melee class, I play a mage, and I'm able to pull off maximum DPS when standing still and casting so if I have an enhancement which means when moving around during an encounter I spend 8% more time standing still doing my best DPS, I'm going to take it. Although I'm not sure the parallels BWarner drew between the usefulness of tuskarrs vitality for Mages are the same for warriors, DPS or otherwise as they are fundamentally different.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 01:29 PM   #32
ffxiedyn
A Chromatic Dragonspawn
 
ffxiedyn's Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 165
Republic, comparing an experienced raider to an inexperienced raider is comparing apples to oranges

here, ill fix the comparison for ya:

now an experienced raider with tusker's boots vrs an experienced raider w/o the boots:

they both standing in the area that is about to be clobbered in stuff they need to run out of and then they need to start dps on the next bad guy after running out of said area..

(the next bad guy is being tanked by the off tank... iron council anyone?)

who will get there first and start dpsing the next bad guy? the one with tuskar's of course!!! (if they both have the same experience of course)

and who will do the most dps? the one who got there first, as shown by Dridzt's math a few posts back ^^

there, an apples to apples comparison for ya ^^

Last edited by ffxiedyn : 10-16-09 at 01:32 PM.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 01:55 PM   #33
Chibi
A Cyclonian
 
Chibi's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 43
Conversely, we could all be engineers with rocket boots and have both... If I was a warrior, I'd still go with a pure dps enchant, since I can dodge the fire, and getting back on the boss can be accomplished with a charge/intercept/intervene depending. As any class though, the runs speed vs pure stat will flip flop on which does you more good across a span of fights, so I wouldn't stress over it. Min/Maxers will have have duplicate boots, so they don't count. :3
__________________
Perhaps...
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 02:16 PM   #34
Republic
Paladin
 
Republic's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by ffxiedyn View Post
and who will do the most dps? the one who got there first, as shown by Dridzt's math a few posts back ^^
the guy using icewalker instead of tuskarr's?

The math was flawed, I didn't want to touch it because I didn't want yet another stick in the antbed, but since you mentioned it. I'm pretty sure a guy with a higher crit rate will produce more damage over an entire raid than a guy who gets out of flames 8% faster. I don't need math to tell me the obvious

The initial recommendation was for DPS WARRIORS to use Tuskarr's as a default enchantment. This is, in my view, vastly wrong. On top of the other reasons already mentioned, why would you recommend a movement boost to a class that can already charge? I don't get it. We aren't talking about "general melee classes" or tanks or anything else (at least for the initial objection I had to this guy's blog). The guy recommended Tuskarr for dps warriors. To me, for all the reasons I've already stated, that's not a very credible position That's all there is to it.
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 04:38 PM   #35
Dridzt
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Dridzt's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,257
I initially thought you were objecting for the sake of objecting.
That's usually a sign for me to seek a more productive use of my time.

But you've actually convinced me that you just don't get it,
so I'll give it another try.

First of all my previous post very clearly states that the numbers are arbitrary (twice).
Go back and look at it, it's not edited.

I purposely dumbed the example down to the extreme to cut through your confusion.

Since my "math" is not convincing (which was never the point).
Get this spreadsheet Warrior DPS Spreadsheet
and run proper numbers yourself.

Or run EnhSim and get your numbers there.

Or trust players like those in top world min-maxing guilds: Ensidia Priest Shadow Guide part1
Or other posts using actual wws parses to reach conclusions.

If you want to get an idea of what proper math is like.
(I was overly generous toward icewalker in my time off target %)
Both the worms and Icehowl have knockbacks. Icehowl's can be ranged by being right on the edge of melee range but the worms can't and there is probably 5-6 seconds of movement for each knockback. Based on the math we have if you can output 7500 dps in a perfect situation (ie the sim) then if there is 10 seconds of movement in a 5 minute encounter runspeed is a better option then Icewalker or any other enchant. With Icehowl getting stunned and increasing that dps number significantly, along with all the knockbacks, it makes it so that runspeed is more valuable then anything else even if you can get out of range of his charges without it.
I'm sure afk-aoe tanking 5man heroics really sharpens those instincts though
so that you
don't need math to tell the obvious

Last edited by Dridzt : 10-16-09 at 04:44 PM. Reason: link corrections
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 05:28 PM   #36
Republic
Paladin
 
Republic's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 277
Originally Posted by Dridzt View Post
I'm sure afk-aoe tanking 5man heroics really sharpens those instincts though
so that you
There's your real purpose, to insult I play every tanking class. I have two protection warriors (horde and alliance). I have one feral druid (alliance). And, of course, two protection paladins (horde and alliance). All of my toons are dual spec, with most of my tanking toons carrying a dps spec as a secondary (warriors are both arms, paladins are both ret, feral druid puts on cat gear). You want to take swipes at them too? The point being, I've tanked on ALL of the tank classes for over 3 years and on two of them for nearly 5 years. You tend to develop instinct for TANKING by doing it so much, well, at least some of us do.

Any more shots? Why would I need to look elsewhere to learn how to play my toons? I've done that for myself. Thanks though. Those tools you mentioned are no doubt invaluable to new players. That's some good information.

Let me clear it up for some of you knuckleheads, in my OPINION, Tuskarr's is a stupid recommendation for a default enchantment for a dps warrior. Plain and simple. Not that the guy making the recommendation is STUPID, but the enchantment is for many reasons already listed by myself and others Keep focusing on me though if you need to. I'll assure you that I have thick skin.

Happy Killing
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 05:37 PM   #37
Petrah
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Petrah's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,988
Geez guys... debate without the pot-shots at one another. Otherwise one of our wise admins will have to close the thread. We learn nothing from that.
__________________
♪~ ( ) I My Sonos!
AddOn Authors: If your addon spams the chat box with "Addon v8.3.4.5.3 now loaded!", please add an option to disable it!
  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 07:16 PM   #38
Seerah
Fishing Trainer
 
Seerah's Avatar
WoWInterface Super Mod
Featured
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,748
Originally Posted by Petrah View Post
Geez guys... debate without the pot-shots at one another. Otherwise one of our wise admins will have to close the thread. We learn nothing from that.
Oooh, two "quoted for emphasis" posts in a row!
__________________
"You'd be surprised how many people violate this simple principle every day of their lives and try to fit square pegs into round holes, ignoring the clear reality that Things Are As They Are." -Benjamin Hoff, The Tao of Pooh

  Reply With Quote
10-16-09, 10:30 PM   #39
Dridzt
A Pyroguard Emberseer
 
Dridzt's Avatar
AddOn Author - Click to view addons
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,257
Ignorance is bliss
  Reply With Quote
10-27-09, 06:22 PM   #40
BWarner
A Black Drake
 
BWarner's Avatar
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 87
Pushing this up due to new content.
__________________


The Warrior Formerly Known As Aerowyn.

http://AeroWow.com/
  Reply With Quote

WoWInterface » General Discussion » Chit-Chat » AeroWow

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off