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Why updater clients need third party platform? - WoWInterface
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02-01-10, 08:55 PM   #1
pikezeppelin
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Why updater clients need third party platform?

Curse is using net framework, mmoui is using java.

Java... I am never going to install that crap on my computer. Had lots of issues with it in the past, starting with viruses and ending with being unable to clean uninstall end user runtime from my computer...

I mean, why no one is able to do stand-alone client? Like all most popular programs are. They don't need any Java or other crap, you just click on installer, it installs in program files with settings stored in app data occasionally. That I call a srs bzns.

Well, but development already started, there's no way back I guess. But tell me that, why did you choose Java, the biggest uber crap on the internets?

And no, I'm not a programmer and cannot give you advices or start my own updater :P
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02-01-10, 09:15 PM   #2
Sythalin
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As far as making an standalone app, it takes a LOT more work than you may realize. Java was most likely chosen as it's the most "universal" of open programming languages.

To elaborate, .NET is proprietary to Microsoft, meaning that it was designed specifically for Windows. In order for it to work with any other OS, it has to have it's own version, which is why the curse client has two seperate downloads.

Minion has one download, which is compatible across all platforms and doesn't require much on the coder's end for this. You have Java to thank for it. It may not be the "best-of-the-best" as far as languages go, but it's the easiest to work with.

However, because you lacked the knowledge to correctly uninstall runtime (as you've admitted) or didn't bother to scan a Java app before installing it (giving you the virus) doesn't make Java the "biggest uber crap". That's user error. Unfortunately, the only two fixes for that are 1) add more info to the user.lib for better logical decisions or 2) replace user.
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02-02-10, 06:41 AM   #3
Zyonin
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A few years ago (like in the 90s), the statement "Java is crap" was true. Java was slow, buggy and annoying. However in the last 8 to 9 years, things have since changed. Java runs very well even with my ancient hardware and that has been case since the early 2000s. Even with some of the bleeding edge stuff that I test (and break), Java (or more to the point, the applications built using Java) works just fine.

Regarding this:

"Java... I am never going to install that crap on my computer. Had lots of issues with it in the past, starting with viruses and ending with being unable to clean uninstall end user runtime from my computer..."
That is not Java's fault. The initial problem was some crappy application that was built using Java. It's kind of like blaming C for all the crappy programs and malware out there was written in C. Or blaming the English language for the plethora of crappy books and TV programs. Don't blame the tools; instead, growl at the boneheads using the tools.

Regarding Minion. It works very nicely. I have used it under Windows and Linux. The download is smooth, fast, and painless. Using Minion is the same story, it just works. I wish I could say the same about many other applications. Due to Minion's Java roots, it works exactly the same under both Windows XP and Linux (Ubuntu 9.10). This is a good example of a well written Java program and it's not the only one out there.
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02-02-10, 06:44 AM   #4
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And no, I'm not a programmer and cannot give you advices or start my own updater :P
Exactly.

You're not a programmer so hence have no experience in the amount of work a project like this requires.

Especially when you expect to build for multiple software platforms.

If using Java saves them from having to maintain seperate development branchs per major operating system then more power to them.

This would be the exact reason why the .Net framework was chosen by the Curse development team - instead of having to build all the code to draw a window with button they can instead say "Give me a window with these attributes with these buttons inside it"

My other point is all the work being done on MMO minion is volunteer work. I don't think it's very tactful to reject work that's been done for free out of someone's free time just because you can't install the software to use it.

Lastly I'ld like to point out I've never had a problem running Java on any of the computers I've encountered. I've used several Windows machines , Linux installs and OS X Macs. None of them had a problem running Java at all.
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03-17-10, 04:10 AM   #5
tangedyn
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I'm running on Linux, so I'm happy and thankful for wowi's decision to ensure that Minion is cross-platform. I understand some people aren't happy with using Java, but I'm more than happy with it. Perhaps using Qt may have been a better idea if it's really so important to appease those that find installing a JRE annoying, but that's not really my concern
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03-21-10, 07:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
I'm running on Linux, so I'm happy and thankful for wowi's decision to ensure that Minion is cross-platform. I understand some people aren't happy with using Java, but I'm more than happy with it. Perhaps using Qt may have been a better idea if it's really so important to appease those that find installing a JRE annoying, but that's not really my concern
Ditto. My thoughts match exactly.
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03-21-10, 08:14 PM   #7
BWarner
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Originally Posted by Bluspacecow View Post
My other point is all the work being done on MMO minion is volunteer work. I don't think it's very tactful to reject work that's been done for free out of someone's free time just because you can't install the software to use it.
Correction: Don't want to install the software.

If you want to be safe from viruses on the internet, then uninstall your web browser/email handler ASAP - after all, web browsers are probably the single biggest medium for malware transmission. Or, better yet, take your entire computer off the internet grid. You know, just to be sure.

Yes, I'm being intentionally facetious here. If there's a glaring security hole in a program, that's one thing. However, that's not the case with Java, that's not the case with Flash, and it's a bit ignorant to say that Java itself is a poor program because it is inherently unsafe.
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03-21-10, 09:51 PM   #8
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Can't you compile Java?
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03-21-10, 10:01 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by pikezeppelin View Post
Curse is using net framework, mmoui is using java.

Java... I am never going to install that crap on my computer. Had lots of issues with it in the past, starting with viruses and ending with being unable to clean uninstall end user runtime from my computer...

I mean, why no one is able to do stand-alone client? Like all most popular programs are. They don't need any Java or other crap, you just click on installer, it installs in program files with settings stored in app data occasionally. That I call a srs bzns.

Well, but development already started, there's no way back I guess. But tell me that, why did you choose Java, the biggest uber crap on the internets?

And no, I'm not a programmer and cannot give you advices or start my own updater :P
I hope you don't use Flash or any other Adobe products!
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03-22-10, 02:39 AM   #10
Zyonin
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Originally Posted by BWarner View Post
Correction: Don't want to install the software.

If you want to be safe from viruses on the internet, then uninstall your web browser/email handler ASAP - after all, web browsers are probably the single biggest medium for malware transmission. Or, better yet, take your entire computer off the internet grid. You know, just to be sure.

Yes, I'm being intentionally facetious here. If there's a glaring security hole in a program, that's one thing. However, that's not the case with Java, that's not the case with Flash, and it's a bit ignorant to say that Java itself is a poor program because it is inherently unsafe.
Yah, generally the biggest security flaw are PEBKAC errors, though holes in Flash and unpatched browsers also dominate.

Originally Posted by Shadowed View Post
I hope you don't use Flash or any other Adobe products!
Agreed.
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03-22-10, 07:42 AM   #11
contramundi
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Originally Posted by pikezeppelin View Post
...Well, but development already started, there's no way back I guess. But tell me that, why did you choose Java, the biggest uber crap on the internets?...
to correct what your saying. Java/.Net/C++/Etc, aren't crap, its whats already said above, the people who misuse these programming languages that are crap.

If i read your words correctly, if you would get a virus on your computer from a dubious website, you would blame the creators of HTML/PHP/etc because they made it possible for other people to misuse the language? And then everything made using coding like HTML/PHP would be bad?

Besides, if you happen to get infected by a virus its time to actually think about getting a anti-virus program, there's loads out there that do wonderfull work

Last but not least, are you a volunteer on the MMOUI minion project? no, because you already stated that you don't know how to program, wich would also mean that its your own choice if you would use it or not, for whatever reason you like, but don't go start at the volunteers working on this massive project (because thats what it is) that the program they are making is in short "crap" because it isn't what you want it to be coding language wise.

If you want an updater that works with WOWI, not coded in JAVA, i would advise you to learn some coding and make one yourself... but i highly doubt that you would be able to actually use it in the end ^^ (not because the coding would be bad, but i don't think dolby/cairenn/etc. would like people with their own custom updaters using this site for it)

its quite simple, if you don't like then either don't use it or make something yourself.
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