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09-10-09, 03:25 PM   #21
us2006027321
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Originally Posted by Miralen View Post
Personally as far as research goes I don't spend hours upon hours crunching numbers trying to get the very last drop of efficiency out of my spells from talents or stats...
That's okay. You shouldn't have to do that in order to be able to keep up with the game in the first place. Casual is okay, and a lot of the best connections I've made in this game have been with the casual players because they're so relaxed and don't take this game so seriously. (This is the part where Heath Ledger strolls his s*xy self in and says, "Why so serious?" LoL)

Because this game is my hobby, I really do enjoy spending two hours at a time in front of an Excel sheet with the Mage Theorycraft-o-Matic up and spending silly amounts of gold on respec's, trying out different spec's and spell rotations on the training dummies. It's a good way to learn a lot about my class. I might be a little serious about the knowledge, and it might be fun to pick on someone a bit for making a bad nub mistake (like a Hunter who does Distracting Shot and then tries to Misdirect and wonders why it isn't working), but I really don't expect others to have my same love for the game. Expecting others to view the game the same way only takes the fun out of it for all involved, and that's what I'm battling most right now.

Oh, well. I'm not txferring Arc yet again, and I'm not rerolling him on another server. I've invested too much time and money on him to feel kosher with doing either. He came from Kel'Thuzad, and on Kel'Thuzad he'll stay. I'll beat these morons. I know I will.

I've had good help and advice from y'all to make sure of it. ~_^
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09-10-09, 03:42 PM   #22
zero-kill
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We don't seem to have that many snobs on Gil'neas, I guess we're lucky
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09-10-09, 04:55 PM   #23
Sunhead
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Ahh, I use GearScore all the time.
But I have never used it to exclude someone. As lead Healer I use it to identify people who might need extra heals or help healing. It's a tool like anthing else and if you dont understand it it will make you look like a noob.

[rant]
OMFG Hit Cap, it's like people just dont understand mathematics or something. Sure, dont replace 50 SP and 20 crit for 2-4 Hit, but you should be aiming for max +Hit. I have had this discussion with Mages, Shaman and Huntards. Same people probably believe the gambler's fallacy is true as well.
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Stand out of the Void Zone.
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09-10-09, 05:04 PM   #24
Marthisdil
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Originally Posted by us2006027321 View Post
It's good to know I'm not the only person with this problem, and it's rewarding to see I'm not the only person who feels as I do about the problem.When I dinged 78, the first thing I did was gem out of Spell Power and Intellect (which I had done for leveling purposes), and began gemming straight into Hit Rating and Spell Power. The reason for it was that one day I had a sad realization: I was missing on bosses in normal 5-man runs on about every third or fourth hit because my Hit Rating was garbage. I had about 1.8k Spell Power, and my dps wasn't getting above 1.4k. That's a problem! I've lost about 500 Spell Power, and my DPS has gone up so much. I don't know how any other Mage couldn't have noticed the same thing in the process of gearing and leveling up to 80 if they were doing anything even remotely similar. Capping should be first priority for any Mage, and Spell Power should come only after Hit cap has been achieved. That's my theory on it, but it seems like a good deal of the player base on the three servers I've played with this toon would choose to disagree, which brings me to my next point.I've had a bunch of people pick me apart for being in a few pieces of Kara and ZA purples. I even have a green belt I've refused to give up. (My toon's siggie is a link to his armory entry if you wish to review it.) I've kept all these pieces because the only options I've had in loot rolls would cause me to lose 16-24 Hit Rating. No one sees that though! All the see is that it dropped from Kara or ZA or that it's green, and they pitch a fit about it. This has happened on three different servers. I've blown $75 on server transfers trying to escape this awful behavior of "your Spell Power isn't high enough to play with the big kids." No one cares about Hit Rating. They treat me this way, and then they gripe in Trade Channel about how Mages don't have good dps... They're pigeon-holing us into doing terrible dps because if we don't compromise our standards on our stats, they won't let us come with them. I'm sick of it!The other day, I was on my Alliance Mage (Imperiosus, 69 Draenei Mage, Stormscale), and someone was in Trade recruiting healers for a run of some kind, and all he required was a link of the achievement. (I believe he was recruiting a H VoA.) Anyways, I shift-clicked someone else's achievement (it even had their name in the achievement I wasn't spoofing), and I got an immediate invite. He didn't check my level or class to see if I actually qualified to fill the slot he was looking to fill. (Click here to see a screenshot. It was funny stuff. He tried to invite me twice before he realized that I was just baiting his stupidity.) This is the mentality people have now! Inasmuch as achievements were supposed to be for fun for the casual player, they've actually only made things worse, and I'm really sad for where the game has gone.

If the majority of the player base stays this way after Cataclysm has come out and "simplified" the stats for the people who don't want to do their homework and still want to act like elitists, I'm quitting. I'm so tired of doing the research and time to be good at my class only to have a game full of baddies keep me from getting anywhere in the end content.

Maybe I'll find a pr*v*te s*rv*r so I don't have to pay to play with morons. Oh wait... That's against the ToS and EULA, and I would never make a suggestion like that. >.>
For Heroics it's weird they would "rate" you. hit capping is nice and all. But for raids, you have to take into account debuffs and raid composition.

Debuffs/racial abilities/talents all affect your "soft" hit cap. Shadow priest and Boomkin and a Draenai in your raid? You don't need as much +hit gear on yourself because you gain a lot of +hit from those types there.

So maxing out your +hit on your gear, while fine for the pug where you won't always have those, is NOT necessarily the best practice for a raid where you will know who is on it.
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09-10-09, 05:50 PM   #25
Republic
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Originally Posted by xaeran View Post
I usually kick a player if they dare utter the words "this is a non-fail group right?"
Guys using fail as an adjective should be kicked anyway, simply out of principle. I'm not sure why gamers think using that word in so many different ways is cool, but well, it's one more aspect of the community of nerds that I simply cannot relate with.

The only things worse than using "fail" to sound cool are guys that have phrases as a name, guys that use "UR" to cover the fact they don't know when to use your, you're, etc., and then perhaps guys who are comfortable playing a female toon and running around semi-naked (you know these nerds - hide the cloak when you get leg armor that shows your rear, etc.).

Wow is a really sad collection of folks sometimes. If it isn't the addons, sites, tools enabling the elitism, it will be something else (vanity pets maybe?). The game IS simply that stupid.

The ironic thing is, most people posting in forums refer to these types as "those other idiots" but frankly, some of us are part of the problem as well. Why do "we" tolerate being around these other "idiots"? I find it interesting that most people talking about "those other idiots" are probably guilty of the same behavior in the game. Even in this thread you see people referring to using these tools. Bah.

Call me crazy but the best part of vanilla wow was the fact there weren't all these ways of being elite. Your elite players were such because they were good players, not because they had a 20k elephant parked at a mailbox and the other nerds were drooling over them. Know what I mean? This game is becoming FAR too much about vanity. I've stated in the wow forums that Cataclysm turns this into nothing more than a fantasy based Counter-Strike with vanity enhancements. This game is nowhere near the game that started all this. Lore is being thrown out the window. There's nothing epic about epics anymore. Cows are becoming paladins. What the hell is the point?

I don't keep track of Wow's development team(s), but it sure seems to me there's been some massive personnel changes at the top. And no, I don't mean Activision's influence. I'm talking about the actual "creative types" that can make 400 different recolored dragonhawk pets but cant fix a hunter pet bar issue that has existed since the dawn of man.

To each his own I suppose, no matter how stupid.
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09-10-09, 05:56 PM   #26
Republic
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Originally Posted by zero-kill View Post
We don't seem to have that many snobs on Gil'neas, I guess we're lucky
This is very accurate. My horde 80's are on Thrall and my alliance 80's are on Aggramar. Of the two realms, only Aggramar is obsessed with gear scores and this elitist crap. I level all my horde to max level as priority (when an expansion hits, or whatever) and then swap over and do my alliance. When I got all my horde on Thrall to 80, I started on alliance and I remember seeing mention of "GS" and stuff in LFG. I asked a friend wtf that was all about and was introduced to wow heroes, and the GS ratings this thread is about. I was shocked this was how an entire realm placed people into groups. On Thrall (at the time I leveled up mine), there was NEVER any mention of any of this stupid stuff. I guess it took me about 3 months to get all my horde up to 80, so that's a pretty significant amount of time to have never heard talk about gear score, etc. It's not like I was just there for 1 day and no one mentioned it. It simply wasn't part of the "culture" at the time I leveled there.

Each realm does have its own unique stupidity. It just seems like it's spreading at a rate that's hard to control or something.
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09-10-09, 06:34 PM   #27
Landrell
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Heh, I feel your pain man. The only add on that I use that benefits anyone at all is Rating Buster. I cant' see myself using any of those mods where you look at their score or item level because one, it's a waste. Two, it's a joke, and three, I find it simply ignorant of folks to simply rely on factors that could either make or break your views of that player and their capabilities in playing that class.

The game used to be all about skill, and the gear you received was all icing on the cake. But my hubby was talking to me last night about this and he made a valid point, "It's all about the gear now. It used to be about how good a player you were, but now it's about how much gear and how good it is before you even get seen as a good player. They've taken the know-how on playing your class right out and that just doesn't make it fun anymore". So people that you've faced are on that mentality now and unfortunately, it's difficult to get them to give people who know how to play but don't have the gear a chance now.

"Oh you don't have ItemRating blah blah blah...you can't join our group for Heroic UK!" What!? This makes zero sense.

We do gear checks at least when we do raiding in our guild, but outside of that, as long as you bring the know how to play, we don't care. Some folks out there just need to get with the program and not believe those silly add ons like that. It's turning people into elitist idiots that won't give people the shot they know they deserve.
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09-10-09, 06:36 PM   #28
acapela
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personally, i think these issues are much larger than the availability/lack of "rating" addons.

i suspect that in any large, anonymous, egalitarian, "one-size-fits-all" virtual online environment like this, especially with such a wide variance in content/difficulty (and degrees of commitment on the part of the community), there is just no way to win . literally anyone you encounter could be an inveterate jackass, and the "jackass" stat is not something the armory tracks.

what is more, i have found that even in a jackass-free community (like the guild i am in), i am way behind most of my active guildmates. i am a casual enough player (at this point) that i just don't have the time/resources to "keep up" with the progression, which means there is a lot of content that simply isn't "intended" for me (like... heroics), AKA content i just wouldn't have the means to access with what i would consider a reasonable level of effort even if i suddenly found i had more time/resources.

for myself, given Blizzard's whole philosophy for the game (i.e. rich enough that people can make a second career out of it, if they want to), given how high the ceiling is at this point, i suspect i would need to churn servers, guilds, and/or playgroups to find folks at "my level" (and with a similar level of commitment to mine, who would be somewhat likely to remain at "my level"), which would significantly increase my exposure to the jackass factor for a while, or wait until the next expansion and suddenly stop being casual.

and churning seems to be the name of the game. i cannot think of more than one or two people i started playing with (in November 2004) that are still in the game with their "original" toons on my preferred server. everyone from the "old days" is gone; either quit, switched servers/toons w/o leaving a forwarding address, or some such.

i wish it was different...
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09-10-09, 07:03 PM   #29
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I brought up this issue a while back in a different thread, and I'm still stunned by how many elitist jackasses there are in this game. I moved my only level 80 to another server (a newer one, in fact) and I'm still seeing the same crap in the trade channel regarding "must be geared". That's partly why we established the nUI based guilds. We're still recruiting members but, in a sense, we're "growing up" together. Since our members know each other, we're quickly establishing trust. I'm starting to think this may be the only way to avoid the elitist attitude that's so prevalent these days.
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09-10-09, 07:35 PM   #30
Yhor
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Acapela, you brought a tear to my eye in your ending. I go back to my original server on occasion to try to track down one friend who remains, but finding what alt they are on is hard. I have to send around 3 in game mails and it normally takes a week or so to finally get on the same page (actually talk).

I know where about 7 of my original 10 charter signers for my first guild are. Most no longer play, a few play casual, and that one I mentioned earlier is pretty much the same as they were when I met them. All of us wish we were 'capable' of all playing together as we did back then, but schedules, and real life don't allow for it. It is sad.

/off topic


Rating gear, gear scores, elitist attitudes, and general D-bag behaviour are going to be around. Skill no longer seems to matter, unless you are really bad, if you have gear that is attained at the highest content level. It's kind of like high school was. Reeboks, Coca Cola collared shirts, Levi's, Izod, Members Only jackets, "Feathered" hair cut or a -high gel content- flat top (had a feathered mullet myself ), parachute pants... the list goes on. These things make me think of how the community relates to people in game; I find it a sad state of being. Personally, I don't care about your gear, or even your skill... if you are a genuinely 'cool' person, I'll wipe over and over with ya, laughing most of the while.

Coming back to play the game after 6ish months (active account =/= playing), I'm finding myself not having fun like I did in BC. People have quit, left servers, and turned into gear checkers themselves. It makes me wish there was a WoWI server, reading this thread. I think I'd be happy playing with ~96.2% of the WoWI posters (the others could be Alliance, on this fictional server ).

Great thread N8te, thanks to all of you .

Edit: I know it didn't really take me 30 min to type this dumb post...
I may have to check out the nUI guild thing. Do you need to use nUI to be in the guild? (yeah, I'm a nUI supporter, but I've finally gotten enough of my ui back to not need to use a pre made any more *nUI is great, it's just not "mine"..). Well, something to think about, anyway, if I'm eligible.

Last edited by Yhor : 09-10-09 at 07:45 PM. Reason: I typz sloow
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09-10-09, 07:49 PM   #31
Cralor
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Of course you don't "need" nUI to be in the guild

Just go to that server (forget which one now) and ask for an invite
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09-10-09, 08:08 PM   #32
voodoodad
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Originally Posted by Cralor View Post
Of course you don't "need" nUI to be in the guild

Just go to that server (forget which one now) and ask for an invite
Well, yeah that's true. And it's Nesingwary.

Oh, and Yhor, I'm not using nUI at the moment either, since I recently had to do a major-league downgrade in computers, I pretty much have to rely on the default ui until such time as my girlfriend and I can afford to get the computers we really want. CMON TAX TIME!!!
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09-10-09, 08:19 PM   #33
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I'd just like to point out that most of these rating AddOns, in all likelihood, were not written to cater to elitist morons. In my case, I wrote GearGauge to help raid guilds by giving them a tool to look at who is not spending the time and effort to properly gear/enchant/socket, and the individual players have a browser they can use to see what other folks are using for gear, enchantments, and gems.

Saying that these types of AddOns are the problem and should be done away with, instead of the idiots who abuse them, is like saying we should stop making knives because idiots could use them to hurt people.
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09-10-09, 08:48 PM   #34
Mirrikat45
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
I've had/seen similar things happen to me/others and yet I still wrote GearGauge, to help with raid progression, and to see which guild members were being too lazy to spend the time/effort to run the heroics and get enchantments for, and socket gems in, their gear.

Before these types of AddOns, the metric was "Oh, you're wearing blues. ****-off!"

Idiots will be idiots, and the way I look at it is I probably wouldn't want to run with these ****ing retards anyway.
I'm with Torhal here, I didn't write GearScore to cater to the elitists. In fact it allows more flexibility for playstyle in its raitings. Its only meant to be a guide but people abuse it. The addons arn't the problem. The problem is people. It also doesn't help you've hit 80 way late in the game. There isn't too many of you left so its difficult for you to find other people with your gear to form a group and tell all the a*holes to f*off. I'm hoping Cross-Realm LFG will really help remedy this situation.
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09-10-09, 10:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
I'd just like to point out that most of these rating AddOns, in all likelihood, were not written to cater to elitist morons. In my case, I wrote GearGauge to help raid guilds by giving them a tool to look at who is not spending the time and effort to properly gear/enchant/socket, and the individual players have a browser they can use to see what other folks are using for gear, enchantments, and gems.

Saying that these types of AddOns are the problem and should be done away with, instead of the idiots who abuse them, is like saying we should stop making knives because idiots could use them to hurt people.
So, you in essence wrote your addon to serve as a convenient method of judging someone else? Interesting. This is a perfect example of being part of the problem rather than the solution. No offense or disrespect towards your work, of course. I appreciate people working at making the community better, I just don't see how feeding elitism does that, but maybe I'm the crazy one. I'm certainly open to that prospect.

On another point, it was my intention to state that "idiots" stop using these addons for elitist purposes. It was not that the addons shouldn't be made. I give two craps about who makes what or what's available or not available so long as I have my few core addons I do care though when things like this are used to shape an entire realm's persona into an elitist bunch of nerds and theorycrafters. The addon and the knife are fine until they are in the hands of a fool.
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09-10-09, 10:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Mirrikat45 View Post
I'm with Torhal here, I didn't write GearScore to cater to the elitists. In fact it allows more flexibility for playstyle in its raitings. Its only meant to be a guide but people abuse it. The addons arn't the problem. The problem is people. It also doesn't help you've hit 80 way late in the game. There isn't too many of you left so its difficult for you to find other people with your gear to form a group and tell all the a*holes to f*off. I'm hoping Cross-Realm LFG will really help remedy this situation.
As a general question to you and any other author who makes these tools...

Why can't you all band together and establish 1 standard rating system? It would give you all much more credibility, for lack of a better way of saying it.

While it's true people have a thousand different opinions on how to gear a tank, a point of dodge is always a point of dodge, stamina is always stamina, etc. etc. Why is it so hard to combine all these things into one standard method of evaluating them? Your addon shouldnt like the fact I have dodge gems over that other guy's addon that would like me better if I had parry gems in their place. See the point? It makes no sense.

In other words, why does Wowhead's profiler like my gear more than Heroes or whatever else is out there judging me? Get my drift? On similar gear, everyone scoring it should be similar in results. Period. Any variance is someone's opinion and shouldn't be mentioned let alone be tallied in some tool's report.

The only viable use for any of these addons at the present time is simply to view another person's gear, etc. We already have that now. It's called the Armory. We don't need 9,000 different ways of looking at it. Know what I'm saying?
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09-10-09, 11:06 PM   #37
Torhal
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I'm not here to argue. I'm also not here to try to convince you that using my AddOn is a good thing to do, so saying that I'm part of a purely perceptual problem is a load of bull****.

As to the reasons for not banding together to make a standard rating system...that's like asking why there are so many action-bar AddOns, or so many different buff AddOns. Different strokes for different folks. I didn't like the huge numbers I saw in other AddOns, or what I deemed arbitrary ratings. I don't care what your spec is, or if you're a Paladin who likes to heal in cloth. Judging should be up to the individual, not a number.

GearGauge wasn't intended to be a quick way to "judge someone", but rather a quick way for the raid leader to say "Hey, why isn't your weapon enchanted? Why are you missing gems in your weapon, boots, and chest piece?" - at which point (at least in my guild) that person would either be taken on more runs to get what is needed, or something would be taken out of the guild bank. It was also intended for the other reasons I outlined - item-by-item stat breakdowns for comparisons, so someone has a chance to see what someone else is wearing in any given slot and perhaps have that in a wishlist.
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09-10-09, 11:12 PM   #38
Psychophan7
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Originally Posted by Republic View Post
Know what I'm saying?
I get what you're saying, and you have given me an idea. Thou hast inspired me.
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09-10-09, 11:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
I get what you're saying, and you have given me an idea. Thou hast inspired me.
Well let us in on it, willya! Don't leave us hangin!
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09-11-09, 12:14 AM   #40
Psychophan7
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Simple. Addon that looks over their gear, scans the talents. Puts in the tooltip what that persons relavant stats/combat ratings are. For example: Tanks, def/hit. DPS, hit. Healers get off free because I can't think of any stat that all healers must have a minimum of to heal well.

Ultimately, it'll probably become another addon that faux elitists use to alienate "the bads."
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WoWInterface » General Discussion » General WoW Chat » Are gear rating add-ons beginning to wreck the game?

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