Religion and modern society.

[Led ++]

Now to make a more serious topic on wowint. "WHUT? SERIOUS? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo (more darth vader ooooo)". Well, don't like the topic? Sod off then.

The basic question is, do you guys (and girls) think we need religion in our modern society? Is religion the base of our morality as a human being?

The reason I'm bringing this up is because well ... past few days I've been youtubing a lot of Dawkins, Hitchens etc. Saw Bill Maher's move 'Religilous' (brilliant btw). And I've always been fascinated by religion and the discussions about god. I'm an atheist myself tho I don't necessarily hate people that believe in god. If it's what comforts them than I guess it's fine for them. I do dislike religion as an institution of power. Be it something like the Roman Catholic Church or Scientology or whatever. I'm against feeding religion with the spoon into the mouth of children. It's funny when it's about Santa Claws or the Eastern Bunny, but it's not funny when it's about a space god that's supposed to be all powerful, all good etc.

I feel that religion and government should be two divided by law. I live in Belgium and our state and church are actually separated .. to a certain point.

Anyway, I'd love to see how the wowint community thinks about this.

(sorry, no pizza vote )

[Haleth]

In my personal view, most religions exist only to fill the gap in minds of humans, to put them at ease; people want to be assured that there is someone higher than them, a higher purpose; people also don't want to believe that when they die, they actually die.

I believe that it is partially based upon a fear, and partially upon simply wanting comfort in this often cruel world.

Myself, I base my morals on my own common sense, because I know I can trust it most of the time. I don't want to harm anyone, I can't even stand seeing someone in pain, the humanity in me just instantly wants to help and comfort them.

'Common sense' differs around the world though, and it's very hard to find a solid base for morals and law. Which is why people often base themselves on religion. Which is in my opinion, the easy way out.

[Wimpface]

Voted no. Haleth puts a lot of my thoughts into his own post, and I base my no on his points.

I don't think religion is needed, but religion helps a lot of people through life and is such not a bad thing to have. Until people take it one step further and declare wars based on their religions. But that's not religion itself, that's the people who misuse religion.

Originally Posted by That youtube video most people have seen. Guns don't kill people, I kill people.

That's really all I had to add to the subject, since Haleth took the words out of my mouth.

[Cralor]

Religion is and always will be in our society, as it will always be in our daily lives - whether it be direct participation or from others. As for the specific question "Do we/society need it?" - No; I don't think it is necessarily needed, but everyone acknowledges it.

Princeton's definition of religion says it is "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny". While you may not believe "in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny", you still recognize that you do not believe this, so you, in effect, partake in religion. So, in other words, I believe you do need religion as everyone partakes in it!

Okay, so enough technicalities Here is my take on religion, etc.:

I respect any religious views, of course, and have a better understanding of those that have different interpretations of "religion" (as defined above - believing in something). But atheism, I can't wrap my head around - how can one not believe in any "higher power"? Whether it be someone or something - do you really believe that we are just here? - that planets, animals, life, gas; everything is just here?

Also, how can others be hateful to other religions (or religion itself)? If you believe in God, so what? What do you mean you have to give up yourself to your religion? You are choosing to believe in someone or something to explain your (and everything's) very existence.

TL;DR - Religion may not necessarily be needed in society - but it will always be - and there is nothing that can be done to change that.

[sevti]

Originally Posted by Cralor I respect any religious views, of course, and have a better understanding of those that have different interpretations of "religion" (as defined above - believing in something). But atheism, I can't wrap my head around - how can one not believe in any "higher power"? Whether it be someone or something - do you really believe that we are just here? - that planets, animals, life, gas; everything is just here?

I take atheist to mean no belief in a deity specifically, no inherent moral, decision-making power behind it all, rather than abject faithlessness. I consider myself an atheist, though I like to believe in a power we can't quantify that makes the things like miracles possible. Maybe it's magic, or the Force. No midi-chlorians though.

As for things "just here," I suppose you're trying to get at a purpose, or origin belief - I'm ok with not having a cosmic purpose. I'll be the first to admit my origin theories are shaky at best, but that's not important to me. However it all got here, it's here, and I'm more interested in the present and near future than I am the far remote past (some history is important, but I don't believe knowing the truth of all creation has a reasonable practical application).

I guess in summary, if I needed answers about creation and purpose to get to sleep at night, I might have to turn to god. But I don't. The only purpose I need is love. Live as long as I can to love as much as I can, and make myself and others happier for it. I'm probably not the "typical" atheist, but there you have it.

Originally Posted by haylie Think of religion and state as complementary. If the state provides everything the individual AND the community need to function properly, then religion is largely not needed. Religion is only used to fill the "gap" left when the state doesn't satisfy all your needs.

I had never thought of it this way. I recognized that the simplest answer was "it depends," but this reason is eye-opening to me.

[Led ++]

Princeton's definition of religion says it is "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny". While you may not believe "in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny", you still recognize that you do not believe this, so you, in effect, partake in religion. So, in other words, I believe you do need religion as everyone partakes in it

Well you can't not participate in religion, cause it's everywhere. Does that make it right?

But atheism, I can't wrap my head around - how can one not believe in any "higher power"? Whether it be someone or something - do you really believe that we are just here? - that planets, animals, life, gas; everything is just here?

So because we don't know everything about the creation of our universe we should all believe in some kind of power that made everything for some kind of purpopse?

I think we're just an effect from what happened to our planet in it's first billion years. A reaction. How did this universe came to an existence? I honestly don't know, but we do have various leads which lead to logical assumptions. We know we don't know everything, but that doesn't matter. It's only logical people 4000 years ago gave some explanation and meaning to it. But that doesn't make it true, certainly not 4000 years later when we discovered so much.

I truly believe we are "just" here yes. Our life in this universe is of no importance. At all. The only meaning we can give ourselves is what we do on earth (so far). We're on this planet and we just have to make the best of it. Someday we might all just die (meteor, the sun dying, ...).

Anyway I wouldn't vote for anything specific as some people are deeply religious (mostly by tradition) and if you think their religion is obsolete they may rage on you and call you things.

If they rage, throw tomatoes or shoes at me, call out a Fatwa, whatever. They're just proving my point.

A modern society can be defined in about 2545745552131645728 ways

With a modern society I meant the USA, Belgium, France, Germany, Holland, China, ... you get the idea. I'm well aware that religion has a different meaning in other parts of the world where it basically is their only tool to survive. I'm talking about economical, cultural, scientifically, technological, .. countries yes.

As for religion, well that term is even more ambiguous.

Basically any organised form of religion. It has nothing to do with rituals. Rituals get used in religion yes, but they can just be used without religion too. It has nothing divine in it. Ofcourse in this discussion it's mainly about the major religions, which can very for every country. Clearly no football

You now have to define "necessity" as well as everything that entails. Do you mean necessity for the society as a whole or for the individual? Is your society tolerant of religion? Is it tolerant of multiple religions? Can you pick a religion or do you have to choose the one imposed by the state.

As I said, I find that everyone has the right to worship whatever space dad he wants. In private. That doesn't mean they can't be organised, it just means they don't have anything to do with the nation. Tho this would mean that for example schools, would have to be under the watching eye of the nation. (Would you want to send your kid to a school where they get creationism instead of evolutionary biology for example?)

Now I don't know anything about making or changing a society of course, I'm just raising the question. But isn't the society as a whole also the individual? If you want to have a good society for everyone you have to look at the individuals. There will always be people who have it better of course, but the difference is gigantic this moment.

You live in Belgium, Led. Belgium is largely catholic. It's a monopolist system, in the sense that other religions are regarded as "outsiders" and are generally only practiced by foreigners.

It's true that Roman Catholicism is the main religion in belgium yes, however it is not the only recognized one. You are free to believe in what you will. All the other recognized religions get funded by the government too. However, EVERY Belgian inhabitant pays taxes to the Church, that's just how it works. The number of people that pay aren't counted by their belief. It's just the population number that gets used for this. So you, me, my local kebab store owner, the Chinese restaurant owner ... everyone who pays taxes pays to the Church. That's how our taxes system work. Churches, priests, religion teachers, .. get payed by the government.

But yes, our politicians aren't that influenced by Christian beliefs, but I'm pretty sure it's still in there somewhere. Well, it's been like 2 year since we actually HAD a government but ah well.

Now if you look at the United States, guess what. There is no religious monopoly. There is not "one" religion that is being "imposed" to everyone.

Neither is it in Belgium. However I'm quite sure that the main religion in America is still Christianity. I don't think they ever had a president that's not Christian (and surely not an atheist).
Even in their Senate which is how big? Somewhere in the 300 or 400 people, there isn't (or barely is) any atheist. In one of the elections (I don't know for what exactly tho) there were more candidates that believed in the story of Adam and Eve then in evolution. The people leading the USa are people that believe in the talking snake, and that a woman came out of a rib etc. I for once wouldn't want people that think like that run my country.

If the state provides everything the individual AND the community need to function properly, then religion is largely not needed. Religion is only used to fill the "gap" left when the state doesn't satisfy all your needs.

And is that because they think Jesus would do that, or is it because it fills their pockets with a whole lot of money? And where does the money from the Church come from? And again, I don't believe for one second that we need religion for morality. Religions morality at it's core isn't even something I would teach my children (if I had any). We are a smart race, we evolved beyond anything else on our planet, our brain is big enough. We don't need a god to tell us what's good or not. We can think about that for ourselves. It's in our nature. Like we know that murder is bad, it's bad for our species. But that doesn't mean a human wouldn't be able to murder. Everyone is able to murder. The nazis are a fine example of that. We, as humans, can build a society on our own which isn't based or influenced around dogmas.

As for what people actually believe in? Stop fooling yourself.

So because we don't know we're not allowed to pick a side? Or we're not allowed to discuss and search for the answers?

what's the difference between believing God created the world cause some guys in black coats said so or believing a huge explosion created the universe cause some guys in white coats said so?

It's quite big. Now believing that a god just created our world and that's it (Deism), wouldn't be to bad. However a god that made our world, told us what to do and what not to do, who to hate/murder and who not is a whole other thing. Especially when people have different gods every 500km (so to speak). Cause that god in itself is already discriminating. Not only towards other gods, but also at minorities like gay people for example. Things like abortion, stem-cell research etc. The answer whether a god made our universe and us, or whether he didn't sounds far more important then the question whether aliens exist. (Which they probably do btw)

You're right, I don't know the answer. I'm not 100% sure that the Big Bang is real, but scientifically speaking I can quite easily say it's the latter. Only time, time that I won't be seeing, will tell.

I'm not telling people they're wrong (altho I think they are). I'm trying to get them out of their bubble and think rational for a minute. Even tho I know it's almost pointless because faith is something strong.
And yes, to a certain point I do think that religion is actually dangerous.

As long as people don't grow up with all necessary ethics, peace, love and understanding implemented in their DNA... mankind needs every help it can get.

Bad things happen, it's in our system. Religious people do bad things, non religious people do bad things. Religion won't help people be "perfect", it never has.

Education, social security, health security, .. those are things that help you become a better person, or a better society in general.

There is a Yes or No, cause I'm not talking about the existence of a god. I'm talking about the need for religion in society.

[Led ++]

The content is irrelevant. No one gives a flying hell what the religion is about. It doesn't matter. If it is an institutionalized religion its effects on society as a whole would be absolutely the same.

What? I don't see how you can take the content out of religion. And it sure as hell (no pun intended) isn't irrelevant.

It was used in ancient time as the basis for legislation and morality when the state wasn't powerful enough to enforce them itself (The Ten Commandments are basically copy/pasted in today's most Constitutions)

The state to me looked more powerful back in the old days when everything it said was law, no questioning. The state WAS the religion.

And the ten commandments are in todays constitutions because they are the base of our survival. It's in human nature (for normal people) to know that killing is a bad thing. Yet we kill people everyday. The ten commandments aren't in the constitutions because some old wise guy got them from god.

They are the base of a society that can live together. Moses knew that when he had to stay at his mountain for 40 years or so. Egyptians knew it some 1000's of years before him. And we still know it. But it's not our god that says it, it's our common sense.

Do we need religion? Some evolutionary biologists actually believe that we do. Dawkins himself allows for this, quoting one milestone study which links the survival of the human race to our unique ability to take for granted and accept as truth things that seem outlandish and have no proof behind them. Authority, in general, is an evolutionary concept which enables group activity and survival, and as such any authority - real or imagined - creates the cohesion as a species we need to evolve.

Now this is interesting.

Everything we do in life is a matter of choice, and it should come as no surprise that religion is one of those choices. I chose to be an atheist, just as some people chose to be theists.

And many people don't get the choice.

[Toecheese]

An interesting few points raised by Haylie, but I would contend one major flaw in your argument, religion is most certainly NOT split in the USA in fact it too has a Christian monopoly 78.5%!!



Interestingly enough this makes no difference to my personal beliefs, I consider myself an agnostic athiest. All you agnostics out there probably are too and most of you thiest's (believers) are probably agnostic thiest's.

This might help explain it!

However, my answer to the initial question is 'No' we don't NEED religion in our modern society (however you care to define either) but without religion in our society would it be any better or worse? That I don't know!

As Haylie points out we need to define society, China for example was run by an atheist communist party and between 1942 and 1980 religion was banned. Post 1980 more religious freedoms were granted. They are still run by a communist party but they are no longer enforcing atheism on the masses.

Which was better for the society....probably the one with religion allowed!

But ONLY because it was something they had taken away. You cannot expect a society anywhere in the world to act the same if something they once took for granted is forceably removed from them.

However, if you were able to find societies that developed with a complete absence of religious belief and compare them to ones that did develop religions you would then find your answer as to if religion is needed or not.

However, by my (somewhat limited) knowledge there are no such religion free societies, and therefore the answer would be a definitive YES religion is needed, otherwise there would already be societies without religion!!

Confused yet....I am!!

Finally should people be allowed to believe in whatever they want with out reprimand or abuse from other? ABSOLUTELY.

[Ferous]

I don't want to pick either

Please add that as an option to the poll >.> I don't care if society has religion. You should be able to believe what you want to believe.

[Ither]

I'm agnostic-- enough said.

[Ferous]

Originally Posted by StormCalai I'm agnostic-- enough said.

me too. :P

[Led ++]

Originally Posted by StormCalai I'm agnostic-- enough said.

To a certain point we're all agnostic, I mean no one can be 100% sure about the existence of god. No one can be 100% sure if there is no god either.

Dawkins made up 7 catogories. Where 1 would be the absolute believe that god exists, and 7 being the absolute believe that god does not exist. He puts himself at 6 (or 6,9) because scientifically you can't be sure of either. However with the information you have you can be pretty sure.

But still as an agnostic, do you find that religion should be somewhere in your society. And if so, why?

[Led ++]

Originally Posted by Ferous I don't want to pick either Please add that as an option to the poll >.> I don't care if society has religion. You should be able to believe what you want to believe.

Yes you should be able to believe what you want, I didn't say anything else.

But this question is about if it is necessary in a modern society. For example, I don't see Americans having a president in hte next couple of years that isn't religious.

I for one don't think religion should have any effect on a society. If anything, it would be bad for the society.

So either you think that religion is needed in society, or you don't. Simple as that. Yes or no.

[Ither]

Originally Posted by Led ++ So either you think that religion is needed in society, or you don't. Simple as that. Yes or no.

This still isn't the answer you're looking for-- I believe that society should not dwell on yes or no for religion. I believe the people are free to do what they want and worship the devil, the God, the bunnies, the unicorns, the three-titted mother with whale children, whatever. It's when society instructs their beliefs on the people that I laugh and say "You douche bag!". Example-- churches saying you won't be saved unless you sit in my house and pay my tides. Hmmm, I say "screw your tides" I'm going to Disney World!

I served in the Military, and I fought several years in Iraq chasing Al-Qaeda. To watch humanity believe in a supreme-being that in my opinion is a folk-lore; astounds me. When I was watching my friends get shot and killed, I wasn't praying to the latex wrapper for courage. I was remembering who I was and what I was capable of, and reacting. Just as I got shot several times in the back and watched the enemy barrel down on me, I didn't pray for the Easter bunny (who doesn't exist by the way) to rescue me; I remembered the soldiers beside me who would give their lives for me.

My point-- live, breath, believe, in what ever makes you sleep at night. But, don't put it on the society that their lives are less fortunate than yours because you think bed bugs are the way to 12 virgins in cocktail heaven.


This is what all religion has taught people-- Muslim, Christianity, Catholic, etc.

"You will never have a happy and fulfilling life unless you give yourself up upon whomever"

This is my thought on religion;

Originally Posted by Led ++ To a certain point we're all agnostic, I mean no one can be 100% sure about the existence of god. No one can be 100% sure if there is no god either.

From myself personally-- I don't believe in it.

Almost to the point I can look you in the eye and say "God doesn't exist, sorry but you're house just happen to get plowed by that Tornado. Better luck next time".

[Opthimus]

"" I do not very much care to speak of anything as 'unknowable'.
What I am sure about is that there are many topics about which I know nothing; and which, so far as I can see, are out of reach of my faculties. But whether these things are knowable by anyone else is exactly one of those matters which are beyond my knowledge, though I may have a tolerably strong opinion as to the probablilities of the case. ""

Agnostic here. Until proved, religion (As i think of it) is a case for people to get power or for the not so lucky, a way to get comfort.

[Ither]

Originally Posted by Opthimus Until proved, religion is a case for people to get power or for the not so lucky, a way to get comfort.

"Society knows not of own self-responsibility, but to put-forth their poor choices upon mankind."

[Led ++]

@Stormcalai: It sounds way more that you're an atheist instead of agnostic imo.

But again, I'm not saying or tryign to imply that people can't believe what they want. I'm merely asking if you think that a religion should be the ones leading your country, or influencing the people that lead your country. Of course everyone has the right to debate and say what they want about every discussion.

Perhaps a better question is. Can you have a morally successful country without religion. Cause it seems a lot of people think our morale comes from religion. The Ten Commandments etc. Thus a man that believes is a morally better man.

Is it right that major religions are funded by the government (thus the people)?

Do we still have (if we ever had that is) a need for religion (not just believing or faith), organised religion, in a modern day society. Or could we be better off if we leave religion for what it is.

[Ferous]

Maybe us Mormons do believe in crazy stories that make absolutely no sense, and maybe Joseph Smith did make it all up. But I have a great life and a great family, and I have the Book of Mormon to thank for that. The truth is, I don’t care if Joseph Smith made it all up, because what the Church teaches now is loving your family, being nice and helping people. And even though people in this town might think that’s stupid, I still choose to believe in it. All I ever did was try to be your friend, Stan, but you're so high and mighty you couldn't look past my religion and just be my friend back. You've got a lot of growing up to do, buddy. Suck my balls.

edit - religion debate doesn't belong on the wow forums

[Led ++]

Burn -- you just made my black list. LOL. Call me an Atheist, I may just have to poop on your lawn now. I may tell you to your face it doesn't exist, but that's simply because religion is religion; useless subject.

Wuuut? =(

Out of your reactions I just find that you don't believe in the existence of a god.

I would love it if the next president of the USA didn't swear on the almighty god. I would rather have him swear his oath on the benefit of all the people in his country.

[Ither]

Originally Posted by Led ++ Wuuut? =( Out of your reactions I just find that you don't believe in the existence of a god. I would love it if the next president of the USA didn't swear on the almighty god. I would rather have him swear his oath on the benefit of all the people in his country.

LOL-- I'm kidding, you are still my favorite here!

It would definitely be interesting to see the turn of events if one was to swear on their oath and not on a being not proven.

I think the basis of this is that simply put-- man relies on something non-existent to facilitate their position.