WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Scalebane just like yourself right? those big 51 posts show how active you have been right?

I never made participation an issue.

[Yhor]

Originally Posted by Jalandar I normally wouldn't point this out, but you will pardon me for finding your post to be nothing more than just thumping fanboism when I look and see that all but 2 posts made in the forums by you have been done since this thread started. As I said, I wouldn't normally point that out as a reason to discount someone's presentation of their view, but you yourself made WM's lack of participation an issue, and claimed you yourself had a history of participation on the subject, something that is clearly a falsehood.

Edit: Underlined part seems extremely irrelevant to your name calling. By reading the relevant posts, you in fact did make participation an issue, unless you do represent WowMatrix in some official sense.

Originally Posted by Jalandar I never made participation an issue.

Actually reading your posts makes me want to

Do you really not understand? Or are you intentionally being combative? And I see dodging my question a few posts up is not part of your agenda.

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by Jalandar WoWI would have gained a lot from it, as I already pointed out. Instead, they got the short end of the stick, and Curse got all the free coverage and promotion. I'm refraining from the comment I want to make, out of respect for the site admin's request to refrain from personal comments. I'm not forgetting that at all. I've agreed with this statement numerous times. Of course, I lay a share of the blame for that being the case at their feet as well. Had they developed an API for making those queries, and offered them to WM, I can't imagine for a moment that WM wouldn't have worked with them on it. It would have made things so much easier for WM, that it wouldn't have made any business sense at all for them NOT to step up and find a way to work with them on it. That's why I do believe WM's statement of events for the most part. Frankly it just makes sense, and is vastly more believable than the emotive version of events Kael wrote out. And from what Cairenn just said, about the first version of that statement, I can only imagine how much more over the top his first submission must have been. Kael needed WoWI to go along with him, he needed their acquiescence. His plan wouldn't have worked unless he got them to go along with him.

That's not what you said. You're twisting things to suit your own purpose by only quoting half of my sentence. I said; "this site would have been down due to too many hits on patch day if she hadn't made the decision that she did, and just because Curse blocked them makes no difference". You keep saying Cairenn was forced into her decision because Kaelton bullied her into it, and I'm tired of telling you. You're wrong.

If curse would of blocked them and wowi didn't, then wowi would of been down on patch day. Chances are high that ALL of the traffic that would of came here would obviously go over to curse. Curse probably would of been down on and off on patch day even though they blocked wm. It was beneficial for both sites to block wm at the same time, regardless of the state of wowi's updater. Unfortunately no matter how many times it's been said, you're just not gonna get it.

The rest of your statements are nothing more than conspiracy theories.

[HonorGoG]

Originally Posted by Silenia The rest of your statements are nothing more than conspiracy theories.

You take that back!

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!

[Bruners]

Originally Posted by HonorGoG You take that back! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!

The Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by HonorGoG You take that back! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!

Oh dear dear dear.

It was the Japanese who bombed Pearl Harbor.

Or is this one of your conspiracy theories ?

[Slakah]

Originally Posted by Jalandar Of course, I lay a share of the blame for that being the case at their feet as well. Had they developed an API for making those queries, and offered them to WM, I can't imagine for a moment that WM wouldn't have worked with them on it. It would have made things so much easier for WM, that it wouldn't have made any business sense at all for them NOT to step up and find a way to work with them on it.

As a counter for your argument, why didn't WoWMatrix speak to WoWI first? Why should WoWI put effort into supporting a service which has operated with complete disregard to authors and the websites which it relies on?

[Recluse]

Originally Posted by Jalandar But, had they worked together, the two could easily have come up with API calls to a separate script, so that a call such as: http://wowmatrix.wowinterface.com/api?modid=XXXXXX would output: CURVER=X.xxxx DLLINK=hxxp://xxxxx And they could have even made it lighter, by having WoWMatrix download a master list every, say 4 hours, and serve the version checks themselves.

The thing that gets me is that the solutions Matrix supporters come up with -all- require WoWInterface to do tons of extra work 'just for them' in the sake of what they would call friendly cooperation. This is ridiculous, honestly. I am sure they will be making just such an API - for their own updater. But to craft such an API just for someone else to make money off of them? I wouldn't bite either.

Now, Matrix has decided to host addons, which is what they should have done to begin with - and good for them. But I still don't approve of their methods. They are not just asking authors to join their cause and provide addons and updates on their website for Matrix supporters - they are snatching up every open source license addon and hosting those as well. Now, while there is nothing wrong with this from a legal stance, it is certainly a bit rude towards the authors. Again, I'm glad they are moving to the method they have now where they are not using WoWInterface's hard work and bandwidth for their profits. I wish them well.

Still, I simply monitor the RSS feed of my favorites, and everything is fairly simple using such a method. Updaters make me angry because they try to do things automatically without allowing me to decide if I need to update, if the update is actually working, to downgrade to a specific version, read up on comments to addons to help others or get help myself, etc.

[Bruners]

Originally Posted by Slakah As a counter for your argument, why didn't WoWMatrix speak to WoWI first? Why should WoWI put effort into supporting a service which has operated with complete disregard to authors and the websites which it relies on?

I couldn't agree more. Why would any company put in an effort to help another business service to be better without them even asking for it, helping or getting anything in return?

If WoWInt for some weird reason was to change their page so that WoWMatrix could leech of it more effectively, what would WoWInt gain from it other than less stress on their servers? nothing!

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by HonorGoG You take that back! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!

The Germans?


/points at you and giggles quietly

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by Bruners The Germans never bombed Pearl Harbor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

I think HonorGoG was being sarcastic Or perhaps trying to make a point. Honestly I dunno, but I think it was in fun

[Bluspacecow]

Originally Posted by recluse The thing that gets me

Not trying to stray into the forbidden land of personal attacks but...

What gets me is how the wowmatrix supports can ignore the tons and tons of posts from author and addon site admins , people that have been instrumental in building the addon community today and are indeed the backbone of the community....

While believing the 1 decent reply wowmatrix put up on their site ...

Originally Posted by recluse They are not just asking authors to join their cause and provide addons and updates on their website for Matrix supporters - they are snatching up every open source license addon and hosting those as well.

And without providing any author tools or respecting author copyright rights we're now effectively back to square one. Before they started leeching from Curse authors had a huge problem with them having their own repository for addons.

Also some of those addons are actually older versions of addons when they were still on an open source license. Which is even worse from an addon author's side of things. Because now they have to deal with bugs users bring up that have already been fixed in a later version (the later version that wow matrix isn't hosting)

Tris says it better than I can :

Originally Posted by Tristanian You refer to open source as if its the holy grail. Regrettably though, open source licenses with no restriction on redistribution are the worst possible licenses to use for WoW addons. The reason is simple. If an author decides at some point that he wants his addon(s) accessible to certain people or wants to limit redistribution and changes the license, it creates a mess as the old "free" versions are still being distributed and the author has to deal with support issues on bugs that he has already fixed.

Originally Posted by recluse Updaters make me angry because they try to do things automatically without allowing me to decide if I need to update, if the update is actually working, to downgrade to a specific version, read up on comments to addons to help others or get help myself, etc.

Excellent feed back to Shirak for the next version of wowinterface's client (shoot one at curse while you're at it too )

[Petrah]

Originally Posted by honem While believing the 1 reply wowmatrix put up on their site ...

Fixed.



Sorry Honem, I couldn't resist.

[Cairenn]

Originally Posted by honem Originally Posted by recluse Updaters make me angry because they try to do things automatically without allowing me to decide if I need to update, if the update is actually working, to downgrade to a specific version, read up on comments to addons to help others or get help myself, etc. Excellent feed back to Shirak for the next version of wowinterface's client (shoot one at curse while you're at it too )

We already have it set up to allow (most of) that:

Originally Posted by Cairenn 2. Will it auto update on me? There is an option for you to have it auto-update your AddOns for you, but this option is off by default. 10. Will there be a way to ignore a mod? Yes. There is going to be a right-click menu on the updater that will allow you to ignore a mod always (ie you normally get it from another site and you don’t want it to download from our site), or ignore it just once (ie normally you update it from our site, but you don’t want to this one time, for whatever reason)

It doesn't currently let you revert to a previous version (I think but I could be wrong), but it may be something Shirik will look at adding to it in future.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by honem And without providing any author tools or respecting author copyright rights we're now effectively back to square one. Before they started leeching from Curse authors had a huge problem with them having their own repository for addons.

To quote Cairenn, they are damned if they do (host them) and damned if they don't. You complain when they host, you complain when they instead link to the downloads.

Originally Posted by honem Also some of those addons are actually older versions of addons when they were still on an open source license. Which is even worse from an addon author's side of things. Because now they have to deal with bugs users bring up that have already been fixed in a later version (the later version that wow matrix isn't hosting)

Then maybe those authors shouldn't have gone and removed the open source licenses to be spiteful against WM.......If they had stuck with the open source license, WM could legally distribute the most recent versions, and it would be less headache for them all around......

But don't release under an open source license and then whine when someone exercised their legal rights under that license......or whine that they distribute an older version when you took steps to change the license specifically because you didn't like them exercising their legal rights you granted them.

[Jalandar]

Originally Posted by Cairenn Regarding putting you in Coventry....

Cairenn, I wanted to thank you for your explanation of the reasons why you used the "Coventry" tool in this situation. I do understand better now the use of the tool.

That said, I still have a problem with it. Again, like I said in the suggestion thread, I am not discussing its application to me, but the tool and policy itself and the problems inherent in using such a tool.

That said, if you will entertain it. when I have a bit more time (i.e. not on Mother's Day) I'd like to write up some suggestions (and justification) for some minor changes to how the Coventry tool works so as to address the concerns I see in it. I would make that post back in my suggestion thread on it, and hopefully you will be willing to discuss it with me (And anyone else who decides to join in).

I do appreciate your forthrightness in discussing it.

[Tristanian]

Originally Posted by Jalandar But don't release under an open source license and then whine when someone exercised their legal rights under that license......or whine that they distribute an older version when you took steps to change the license specifically because you didn't like them exercising their legal rights you granted them.

Ah, you see the problem is, they are presenting this outdated version as an "update", which it simply isn't. As a result, any legitimate new versions will be overwritten by this "update" and old issues might arise for the users. If they cared about the users as much as people think, they would take down the outdated open source versions themselves. But wait, that would mean that they wouldn't have a version of addon X to distribute (legally) and that's the real "catch" here. They'd rather distribute a version, no matter if its outdated or not, just because they can get away with it legally, than none at all.

[Elesarr]

Originally Posted by Tristanian Ah, you see the problem is, they are presenting this outdated version as an "update", which it simply isn't. As a result, any legitimate new versions will be overwritten by this "update" and old issues might arise for the users. If they cared about the users as much as people think, they would take down the outdated open source versions themselves. But wait, that would mean that they wouldn't have a version of addon X to distribute (legally) and that's the real "catch" here. They'd rather distribute a version, no matter if its outdated or not, just because they can get away with it legally, than none at all.

exactly right!

this is what brought me to WOWI forums in the first place - Tris has explained it so elegantly.

Jalandar do you know how many addons I had on ignore and was updating manually because Matrix screwed up my installations by putting old versions on my computer. I had so much taint going on and couldn't figure out why I wasn't get my nice little error popups...NOW I know why Matrix decided I didn't need to know....

Was there a pop up saying "Careful! we are installing an outdated and possibly buggy version of this mod. do you really want to do this?" NO they did not they screwed my addon folder so much that I am in the process of redoing my ENTIRE UI with updated sanctioned versions of the mods I enjoy then came here to find out what all the ruckus was about why it "seemed" WM was trying to be friendly and guess what - WM was revealed to me as the life-sucking creature that it is after reading threads from Oct '07 to date and these nice people posting to my very recent question in an attempts to explain to me what was going on.....


/sigh.... why do I keep feedng these people...

[MidgetMage55]

Originally Posted by Elesarr /sigh.... why do I keep feedng these people...

Because you have hope that people will see the evidence and actually accept it for what it is. The reality of whats actually going on.


But if it helps:

[Elesarr]

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55 Because you have hope that people will see the evidence and actually accept it for what it is. The reality of whats actually going on.

awww.. ty MidgetMage

your post maded me smile