WoWInterface and Curse working together to help protect authors and other site-users - Page 62

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

How many times must you thick headed people be told? Size doesn't matter. It's what you do with it that counts.

/end sarcasm

Thanks i just spit soda all over my keyboard.

voodoodad · 05-09-09, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

How many times must you thick headed people be told? Size doesn't matter. It's what you do with it that counts.

/end sarcasm

DOH!!! NAUGHTY SILENIA!

Tristanian · 05-09-09, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by petrakid

Do you think that we're the only ones? WowI won't last much longer if it continues as it is now. Nor will Curse. If lack of business doesn't cause that, Blizzard WILL.

Blizzard will not open a huge can of worms by implementing an addon distribution service and thus indirectly getting involved with support issues. Their official stance has been very clear for years. They allow addons to run on their platform but they will not (and in all honesty cannot) handle support.

Part of my plan for the new site/service I am going to offer IS NOW putting curse and wowI out of business...they've ripped off enough people.

I wish you luck in your crusade to put the legitimate addon hosts, with a long history over the years as being supportive to the community, "out of business". It's funny that you speak of the "i'm right, you're wrong, and I ain't standing down for nothing" mentality, because its the same mentality you are posting under. You are referring to WM's FAQ and take everything they have written as truth while at the same time dismissing anything that has been stated here as a "scam". I'm sorry but any form of scam only exists in your mind.

And speaking strictly as an addon author. We have explained on numerous occasions, that some of us are not in this for the money. We simply don't care, writing addons is something that gives us pleasure doing in our free time, but if we had a choice as to anyone making money off our addons, you can be damn sure that we would select the people that are providing us with the tools to get our work out to the public (addon pages, version control system, tickets, forums, notices, the works) and actually have the courtesy to ask if that is ok with us.

You refer to open source as if its the holy grail. Regrettably though, open source licenses with no restriction on redistribution are the worst possible licenses to use for WoW addons. The reason is simple. If an author decides at some point that he wants his addon(s) accessible to certain people or wants to limit redistribution and changes the license, it creates a mess as the old "free" versions are still being distributed and the author has to deal with support issues on bugs that he has already fixed.

Curse and WoWI are both businesses. This was never denied. WM is also a business, in case you missed it and contrary to popular belief they are into this purely to make money, as their shady history indicates, while at the same time coming out "looking good" and stomping on the good reputation of the legitimate hosts. Back to the days of Ace, WoWI and Curse were supporting the project by paying out of their own pockets, one of the main reasons why the old model was not sustainable and eventually died out. That's how much greedy they are. Oh and if you come across any "copies of emails and letters" that WM has sent to WoWI, I'm sure the admins will be very interested to see those non-existing letters. WM has contacted Curse, it is true that Curse offered to buy the product (again this was never denied but on the contrary, it has been confirmed by Kaelten himself), they offered a solution that would not cover the expenses induced by their updater and the case was closed. The WM announcement did not really state anything we didn't already know. You are very much free to believe otherwise. In addition their statements as how they "respect" the right of WoWI and Curse to block them, then calling them "childish" a few lines below, are at the very least contradicting each other.

ravagernl · 05-09-09, 01:46 PM

I have a website that costs me about 15 a month to operate. I get UNLIMITED bandwidth and UNLIMITED storage space! It is NOT about bandwidth folks, it's about greed. Pure and simple. If I can get UNLIMITED bandwidth for 15 dollars a month, so can wowi and curse. And I am quite certain they make a LOT more than 15 dollars a month!

Really, there is a limit for everything.

People can drink milk from cows for eternity, yet not everybody can drink at the same time. Or we get skinny cows.

Hosting company's will never let you get unlimited bandwith, despite what they say. It just means that they will tolerate high transfer rates as long as it does not hamper other sites(shared servers) or their data center's connection(s).

For an explanation check http://www.findmyhosting.com/truthunlimited.htm (it came up first at google).

EDIT: Decided to set up a premium account

**Seerah** · 05-09-09, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55

Buh Byeeeee. Good luck on your crusade.

I instantly thought

Bye bye, boys!
Have fun storming the castle!

when I read this...

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Seerah

I instantly thought

when I read this...

I was Channeling Princess Bride and Blackadder at the same time when typed it out =P

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by recluse

You see, the evil WoWMatrix utility is not a friendly piece of software. It transfers page after page of WoWInterface's website to gather information about what versions of addons are available and to download them, etc. This causes a large consumption of bandwith.

And frankly, it is WoWI and Curse's own fault that it did it that way. They ignored overtures from WM to find a way to not only pay for the bandwidth used, but to create a way to minimize the amount of bandwidth and resources used.

They were ignored (well Curse's reply was to throw a low ball offer out to buy them out and shut them down). WoWI never even responded at all.

So I find their crying about the evil wowmatrix bandwidth usage to be nothing but croc tears. It all came down to sour applies over WM coming up with a better solution than either site could do on their own, even now (neither sites' new clients come close to measuring up).

***Cairenn*** · 05-09-09, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

And frankly, it is WoWI and Curse's own fault that it did it that way. They ignored overtures from WM to find a way to not only pay for the bandwidth used, but to create a way to minimize the amount of bandwidth and resources used.

They were ignored (well Curse's reply was to throw a low ball offer out to buy them out and shut them down). WoWI never even responded at all.

They never contacted us. IF they did, it sure as hell wasn't Dolby or I, and we certainly never heard about it. So I'd really love to know who they are claiming they contacted. I know for fact that they never responded to the contact attempts I made to them. Whatever, you've made up your mind and absolutely refuse to believe otherwise, no matter what is said or shown or proved, so I'm really not sure why any of us keep trying.

Originally Posted by Jalandar

So I find their crying about the evil wowmatrix bandwidth usage to be nothing but croc tears. It all came down to sour applies over WM coming up with a better solution than either site could do on their own, even now (neither sites' new clients come close to measuring up).

And you know ours doesn't measure up ... how?

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

[i]
What more would you have us do? What other way could we have "warned" you?

How about not ignoring the overtures from WoWM where they not only tried to find a solution to the revenue side of the equation, but a way to help minimize the resources their client would use? Probably very similar to methods you are now engaging in for your own client.

I know, I know, according to you it never happened.

Frankly, I'm not buying it.

In my vast experience, the party who tries to get out in front, and completely vilify the other party is usually doing it because they can't support their own actions with actual facts. Their answer is to get out in front, and make the other party look so bad, that everyone will jump on that bandwagon, and make the other party look every bit the villain than they wish they were.

WM had every opportunity to vilify WoWI and Curse, and didn't take the bait. In fact, they decided to mostly remain silent, and take the high road. When people were making their silent out to be evidence of guilt, they posted a significantly more reasonable, less emotion tainted, reply, and laid out a timeline of events, without calling WoWI or Curse names, making accusations, or trying to turn them into bad guys.

I expected Curse to act that way, I really did, because of past evidence of .. well, I guess I can't name names without the admins making my posts disappear (and preventing me from discovering it by still displaying them to me), so I will just leave it at that. But I expected WoWI to act better. Not by not cutting off WoWMatrix, I understand the WHY in their decision to do it because Curse was doing it. But WoWI should have issued their own statement, and not let Curse paint them with that brush, and they should have done a better job here, in this thread, of being the better party. Instead they showed they were no better than...well. I'll just say Curse instead of naming an individual.

Petrah · 05-09-09, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

And frankly, it is WoWI and Curse's own fault that it did it that way. They ignored overtures from WM to find a way to not only pay for the bandwidth used, but to create a way to minimize the amount of bandwidth and resources used.

They were ignored (well Curse's reply was to throw a low ball offer out to buy them out and shut them down). WoWI never even responded at all.

So I find their crying about the evil wowmatrix bandwidth usage to be nothing but croc tears. It all came down to sour applies over WM coming up with a better solution than either site could do on their own, even now (neither sites' new clients come close to measuring up).

The very site that you slander is the same site that you use to distribute your addon for free? Big cahones. Really really big ones.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Vyper

Actually you are at 5000kb (just under 5MB) as WoWMatrix downloads the page twice, once scraping for version number, once scraping for the link.

And you are both wrong. The method WoWMatrix used was a text only pull, using Curl.

But don't let pesky things like facts get in your way, they don't seem to matter much around here.

***Cairenn*** · 05-09-09, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

In my vast experience, the party who tries to get out in front, and completely vilify the other party is usually doing it because they can't support their own actions with actual facts. Their answer is to get out in front, and make the other party look so bad, that everyone will jump on that bandwagon, and make the other party look every bit the villain than they wish they were.

Well, you know, you're right, we did have an option other than posting. We could have posted absolutely nothing. We could have just left the entire community not knowing what had happened, why WM couldn't download from our sites, just remained completely silent.

And what would have happened then? We would have been vilified for being so sneaky and underhanded and hiding what it was we had done.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by Silenia

The very site that you slander is the same site that you use to distribute your addon for free? Big cahones. Really really big ones.

My addon is inactive. Not that it is relevant.

But let me get this straight. Just because someone is an addon author, and user of this site, they somehow should just get on the bandwagon and blindly follow the WoWI party line, and not be critical of them when the author feels the site is acting in a wrong, and inappropriate manner?

If I didn't care about this site, I wouldn't even bother here (you will note I don't bother with saying anything on Curse, I couldn't possibly care less about their site and how they run it because of my opinion of them and certain person who are responsible for it. I have been a long long time user of this site, and even when I was using WoWMatrix, I would regularly click the links of the addons to come here to WoWI to read the forums and posts by the authors of those addons, even discuss them.

If I didn't care about this site, I wouldn't have bothered engaging in discussion over any of this. I am very greatly bothered by the way I have seen WoWI handle this situation, and in other things I have seen since (including the very shady censorship they do, the post about that in this thread btw was hidden from all of you until I made a second account and outed the practice in the suggestion forums).

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

And frankly, it is WoWI and Curse's own fault that it did it that way. They ignored overtures from WM to find a way to not only pay for the bandwidth used, but to create a way to minimize the amount of bandwidth and resources used.

They were ignored (well Curse's reply was to throw a low ball offer out to buy them out and shut them down). WoWI never even responded at all.

So I find their crying about the evil wowmatrix bandwidth usage to be nothing but croc tears. It all came down to sour applies over WM coming up with a better solution than either site could do on their own, even now (neither sites' new clients come close to measuring up).

There is no proof that they sent the requests to WoWI only their word. Which is oddly suspect since its only NOW 'coming to light' that they tried. I find it suspicious that for all their efforts and track record in shady dealings that from the beginning were just them trying to 'beat the big guys' to be part of the community. There is no denying they had a discussion with Curse. They have said as much. But unless you are privy to those conversations your just going of the 'our word against yours' argument which is a dead end. Since neither side has opted to produce the emails in question. It would be argued that the emails were altered anyway. So its back to he said she said and another dead end.

I have a hard time taking the word of the WM folks as truth in light of the posts they have deemed worth posting in. They have also had ample time to make their case public if those chose to on the various topics on the subject and yet have only chosen to use passive-aggressive commentary on their own site. The discussions here were open to them to speak up and they didnt.

Your welcome to believe them if you choose. Though i doubt anyone will be convinced that WM is somehow and mysteriously after all this time really just the good guy being stomped on by the bullies.

There are facts that people seem to agree on on both sides of this. Everything else is personal belief. And we all know how well those debates go.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Cairenn

Well, you know, you're right, we did have an option other than posting. We could have posted absolutely nothing. We could have just left the entire community not knowing what had happened, why WM couldn't download from our sites, just remained completely silent.

Or framed your own message about it, and not let Curse paint your reasons with the same tainted brush he used to make up his inflammatory message that it turns out was full of intentional falsehoods. I've already laid out for you what I would have liked to have seen WoWI do, and WoWMatrix's own words have shown they would have most likely responded in a very positive way to that.

You didn't even try.

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

Or framed your own message about it, and not let Curse paint your reasons with the same tainted brush he used to make up his inflammatory message that it turns out was full of intentional falsehoods. I've already laid out for you what I would have liked to have seen WoWI do, and WoWMatrix's own words have shown they would have most likely responded in a very positive way to that.

You didn't even try.

Correction, you ASSUME they didnt try. All you have is their statement. just like all you have is WoWIs statement that they did. Its your choice. But you have no proof in either direction. Just the word of the people involved.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55

I have a hard time taking the word of the WM folks as truth in light of the posts they have deemed worth posting in.

I base my decisions on what to believe by looking at the actions, and knowing about human behavior like I do. As I laid out before, the way Curse and WoWI came at WM, the vitriol and personal attacks they laid out, and which they then practically rallied about when their fanboys here went on for pages and pages leveling even more immature attacks towards WoWMatrix. All of those things are the things you expect to see when a party is trying to move public opinion in their direction when they have no other factual way of doing it.

I have rarely seen that happen when the party who initiates it is telling the entire truth.

And then you contrast that with the measures response from the other party, who stays above all of that, and does not sanction their supporters acting in the way that Curse and WoWI have sanctioned their supports to act as they have in this thread.

You people who are blindly following WoWI and Curse on this, have gotten away with some of the most vicious personal attacks, some of the most outrageous mockings, against those who expressed their frustrations here, and yet, when someone stands up to you and calls you on it, and points out how immature you are, and how foolish it makes you loot, they get censored.

I am trying real hard to keep my respect for this site's admins. And it's only because my respect for them has existed for such a long time before this that I haven't just let it go completely.

Jalandar · 05-09-09, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by MidgetMage55

Correction, you ASSUME they didnt try. All you have is their statement. just like all you have is WoWIs statement that they did. Its your choice. But you have no proof in either direction. Just the word of the people involved.

No, I know they didn't try. I am not talking about prior attempts they claim they made, or the prior attempts WoWMatrix made that they ignored and/or claim they never got.

I am talking about making the kind of public statement and overture after this mess started, as I suggested many many many pages back.

Had they done that, and had WoWMatrix taken them up on it (which by their own words would have been highly likely), they would have a huge leg up on Curse right now.

Instead, Curse, who knew they had a working client and a couple weeks from the launch of their premium service, pressured WoWI into following them in this, made it near impossible for them not to. Curse knew that WoWI was not in a position to do this. Curse knew that the fact that they had a client working now would give them a huge leg up over WoWI post patch. And so they pushed the issue, got a HUGE amount of free exposure and advertising for their client, and a huge exposure for the fact that WoWI did NOT have one, and a way to lure more people into paying for them premium service once they had a taste of it for a few weeks.

Curse couldn't wait a few weeks for WoWI to catch up and have a client ready. They knew if they did that, they would lose their big advantage.

WoWI let Curse set the agenda, and they have paid a huge price for it.

Petrah · 05-09-09, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jalandar

My addon is inactive. Not that it is relevant.

But let me get this straight. Just because someone is an addon author, and user of this site, they somehow should just get on the bandwagon and blindly follow the WoWI party line, and not be critical of them when the author feels the site is acting in a wrong, and inappropriate manner?

If I didn't care about this site, I wouldn't even bother here (you will note I don't bother with saying anything on Curse, I couldn't possibly care less about their site and how they run it because of my opinion of them and certain person who are responsible for it. I have been a long long time user of this site, and even when I was using WoWMatrix, I would regularly click the links of the addons to come here to WoWI to read the forums and posts by the authors of those addons, even discuss them.

If I didn't care about this site, I wouldn't have bothered engaging in discussion over any of this. I am very greatly bothered by the way I have seen WoWI handle this situation, and in other things I have seen since (including the very shady censorship they do, the post about that in this thread btw was hidden from all of you until I made a second account and outed the practice in the suggestion forums).

I can still download your addon, so you are using this site for distribution.

You did not offer any opinion whatsoever. You stated everything as fact in an extremely aggressive manner. Engage in discussion? Hardly. I see no "care" in your post at all. Nothing but heated accusations.

MidgetMage55 · 05-09-09, 03:02 PM

If they didnt sanction their supporters coming to site and raising a fuss then this thread would barely be past a few pages long. Im not saying that the people who are making attacks are in the right. Im more for open discussion in even a semi-intelligent way. But neither side is absolved of wrong doing in the content/tone of their posts.