WoW UI AddOn Development Policy discussion thread - Page 33

Zyonin · 03-28-09, 04:31 PM

First of all, I am not a lawyer, nor a law student, nor anyway involved in the legal profession so don't take this post as legal advice:

Warhammer Online (which I have been playing the free trial, too bad my clunker of a PC does not like it) currently does not seem to prohibit any "commercial AddOns" however looking over both the End User Acess License Agreement (EUALA) and Code of Conduct (CoS), leads me to believe that Mythic/EA would likely take similar measures as Blizzard has. Regarding LOTRO, I have no idea.

The following is strictly my opinion:

In general, I would think that most MMO developers/publishers that allow UI modifications/AddOns would likely take a dim view regarding "commercial AddOns". This is an issue that has not likely appeared before. Most MMO communities would simply be too small for a "commercial AddOn" developer to make much in the way of revenue.

Xruptor · 03-29-09, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Zigg

I hope this is on-topic, but I apologize and understand if it's not.

I would like to develop and sell commercial addons for an MMO. Blizzard will no longer allow me to do this for their game.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for information on whether Warhammer Online and/or Lord of the Rings online allow commercial addons?

While I was close to public release of my commercial addons for WoW, this policy turns that effort into a deadend. Thankfully, I guess, I do not have users I have to agonize over how to properly support due to this policy change.

Honestly, as a player, I am more hurt by Blizzard's choice of how to implement this policy than I am as a developer. I strongly believe that players should have as much choice as possible when it comes to addons, and eliminating addons written by people who would prefer to make more than poverty level income in return for publishing an addon hurts players significantly.

Thanks in advance for any help.

-Zigg

LOTRO does not allow custom scripts or addons to their client. You can however skin their default UI and do a few other artistic things but that's about it.

spiel2001 · 03-29-09, 10:51 AM

This is the last time I'll post an update to this, but for those who care, the tracking on the impact of the new guidelines on donations appears to have pretty much stabilized over the last 48 hours.

Having removed a request for donations and eliminated the premium version of nUI, limiting myself strictly to donation buttons at the download pages, donations are off by over 90% over the last 48 hours.

One would presume that having changed nothing else, there has been no other change which would account for such a drastic change in perceived value of the add-on to warrant such a dramatic decline in donations.

My compliments to Blizzard for a job well done.

Tuhljin · 03-29-09, 12:10 PM

I'd be more interested in seeing the difference after a more considerable time period and with considerations for past patterns (increase of donations after a new version is released, for instance), if you wouldn't mind coming back in a week or two. Also, did you remove any mention of donations at all from the addon, or just what would obviously be classified as "solicitation?"

spiel2001 · 03-29-09, 12:31 PM

That has been posted in this thread before... http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=519

EDIT: If it matters any, my initial strong reaction to the new rules was motivated by the fact that I had months of data to tell me the new rules would result in the data I'm now seeing. The 90% drop in donations is only confirming what I already knew. I would expect it to continue to drop until it returns to the $20-$30 per week I was witness to prior to having added the request for donations and the premium version of nUI. I cannot think of any reason why I should expect anything different from what I already saw.

RE-EDIT: And, yes, I find it exceptionally depressing. I'm finding it very difficult to even open the code right now or even to just play. I'm doing my best to work through it though.

Zigg · 03-29-09, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

This is the last time I'll post an update to this, but for those who care, the tracking on the impact of the new guidelines on donations appears to have pretty much stabilized over the last 48 hours.

I greatly appreciate your candor throughout this trying ordeal. You've provided very valuable data into a data vacuum among many other very useful contributions.

You very much are a true professional. You have suffered tremendous loss over this last week and yet you've maintained a public presence and treated your customers with very high respect. In my mind, you are the primary public "face" for what went wrong and I hope you continue to share the emotional ups and downs of your journey with us.

Real people have been really hurt by this new policy. The people at Blizzard may not be meaningfully impacted by the various statements of protest that have been made, but it's important to continue educating the customer base about the negative consequences of this policy, even as many of them aggressively resist such education.

Thanks again for all you've done!

MadCow · 03-29-09, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

That has been posted in this thread before... http://www.wowinterface.com/forums/s...&postcount=519

EDIT: If it matters any, my initial strong reaction to the new rules was motivated by the fact that I had months of data to tell me the new rules would result in the data I'm now seeing. The 90% drop in donations is only confirming what I already knew. I would expect it to continue to drop until it returns to the $20-$30 per week I was witness to prior to having added the request for donations and the premium version of nUI. I cannot think of any reason why I should expect anything different from what I already saw.

RE-EDIT: And, yes, I find it exceptionally depressing. I'm finding it very difficult to even open the code right now or even to just play. I'm doing my best to work through it though.

Spiel2001- Im just curious are these "donations" considered taxable income? do you report it on your taxes? I may have to buckle down and learn how to code an addon lol
some interesting discussion on the taxability http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...m5c705mI0UxMZB

Slakah · 03-29-09, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Zigg

even as many of them aggressively resist such education.

You're entitled to your views but I don't enjoy being patronised, even indirectly.

Gimbli · 03-29-09, 02:55 PM

Anyone who is relying on an AddOn bringing in any form of fixed income, either through donation(s) and/or premium paid use, I think should take a step back and realize that we're talking about open source extension to a video game interface engine.

Donations are a bonus to any that take the time to work on an AddOn. Any requirement for income in relation to an AddOn developed through open source for a video game (MMO at that) engine should reassess their need to continue doing so in such an environment. Regardless of the legality of IP ownership through copyrights to any AddOn source code, all WoW AddOns are designed to only be utilized in the WoW Game Engine environment, rendering them useless without WoW.

If WoW shutdown tomorrow, could you hold Blizzard legally accountable for loss of income assocaited to your individual IP? No. This is no different. Donations are still intact, and Blizzard has simply restricted being able to solicit them in-game. I'm an Author, I have a donation link on SLDataText's page. I've never received a donation, and I really don't care if I never do. These changes don't affect me in the slightest way, and I believe authors taking extreme measures (up to and including disabling the publics access to their AddOns) are doing the community a grave injustice by punishing players for their own intent on bringing income in on their open source projects.

Yhor · 03-29-09, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Gimbli

Anyone who is relying on an AddOn bringing in any form of fixed income, either through donation(s) and/or premium paid use, I think should take a step back and realize that we're talking about open source extension to a video game interface engine.

Donations are a bonus to any that take the time to work on an AddOn. Any requirement for income in relation to an AddOn developed through open source for a video game (MMO at that) engine should reassess their need to continue doing so in such an environment. Regardless of the legality of IP ownership through copyrights to any AddOn source code, all WoW AddOns are designed to only be utilized in the WoW Game Engine environment, rendering them useless without WoW.

If WoW shutdown tomorrow, could you hold Blizzard legally accountable for loss of income assocaited to your individual IP? No. This is no different. Donations are still intact, and Blizzard has simply restricted being able to solicit them in-game. I'm an Author, I have a donation link on SLDataText's page. I've never received a donation, and I really don't care if I never do. These changes don't affect me in the slightest way, and I believe authors taking extreme measures (up to and including disabling the publics access to their AddOns) are doing the community a grave injustice by punishing players for their own intent on bringing income in on their open source projects.

I see your point, but it's no different, really, than any other generic (no GD analogy please, for the love of God

) company going out of business shutting it's doors and cutting off another companies income as a direct result. Blizzard could not successfully be beaten in a court of law on these grounds, as any other company would have a snow ball's chance of getting a judgement under the same grounds. There is really no base to make that claim, in this case.

spiel2001 · 03-29-09, 03:23 PM

Gimbli -- I say this with nothing but respect in my voice... I only making this statement in the interest of trying to stop a myth... you need to stop attaching income to open source. You clearly do not understand what open source means and the constant propagation of the notion that open source means free has got to be stopped.

Tristanian · 03-29-09, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

Gimbli -- I say this with nothing but respect in my voice... I only making this statement in the interest of trying to stop a myth... you need to stop attaching income to open source. You clearly do not understand what open source means and the constant propagation of the notion that open source means free has got to be stopped.

To be perfectly honest Scott, despite the fact that on principle I generally agree with your viewpoint in regards to the situation and I have generally defended the right of authors to receive donations, your recent comment about finding it hard to even to open the code or to play, is dragging it a bit too far imo and was enough to put me somewhat "off". Yes, indeed open source does not imply "free" but aren't you perhaps exaggerating ? It seems clear to me from all this logistical analysis that you actually have very specific expectations from a donate button or notification or w/e. In fact, your recent comment would have someone believe, that ultimately, compensation is your main motive behind development. Now, it is of course your right to seek compensation via donations, but I get a feeling that there is also a sense of "entitlement" here, the same sense that many of us have rigorously fought when it came to users.

Friendly advice : Do not expect anything (anymore at least). If you do so, then perhaps it is indeed wise to re-evaluate the reasons behind your choices. I believe that the sooner you come to terms with the fact that addon development does not yield any sort of important, tangible reward (not anymore at least), the sooner you will be able to function, as you did before the new rules were in place. Unless you choose not to, at which point, if creating/maintaining something makes you unhappy, then why the hell do you go on ? Again, there is nothing personal behind these thoughts, on the contrary, I have the utmost respect for you, since you have been here from day 1 trying to make it clear, on why exactly the new policy is opening a huge can of worms. But comments such as your last, can be easily misinterpreted (to say the least).

spiel2001 · 03-29-09, 04:00 PM

Your point is well taken... and it has never been my belief I'm entitled to anything... you work hard to earn what you get. I spent nine months building this endeavor investing my sweat equity and had *just* gotten to the point where is was starting to pay off for the time and effort and got the rug pulled out from under me.

It's hard to explain. The closest I can come to putting into context is like losing a child, which I haven't but compliments of the War in Iraq spent time dealing with the fact that I might have when I knew members of my Son's unit had been killed in combat but didn't know if he was one of them. I brought this thing to life, I saw it blossom and then I saw someone step on it with a muddy boot, kind of another way to put it.

It was just intended as an honest expression of my feelings, nothing more.

This issue is about more than money... it's about a wide array of issue from copyright law, to artists rights, to money, to emotions and more. I've just been trying to be candid about them all in a way that allows the reader to see the whole picture from a perspective other than their own. I don't believe any other author has been quite so candid.

And I do sincerely apologize if I have crossed any lines or offended anyone.

EDIT: On the subject of entitlement, maybe it would help if I said that I do believe I am entitled to try and sell the software I write, I firmly believe copyright law if nothing else extends to me that as a basic right, however I am in no way entitled to profit from my work... I can only do my level best to create a quality program and to support it to the best of my ability, after that it should be up to the public to decide if I deserve to be compensated for it or not and if not, then that's no one's fault but my own. I do have an issue with Blizzard telling me I am not allowed to even try. Perhaps I'm at fault for feeling that way, perhaps I'm dead wrong... I do however believe Blizzard has no right to tell me I can't try to succeed with my endeavor.

Gimbli · 03-29-09, 04:14 PM

I never made any reference to open source as a free product, simply that it's an open source extension of a video game interface engine, meaning that without the World of Warcraft game engine, there's no point to typing as much as a single statement in the advent of creating an AddOn. Open Source comes in a variety of iterations. I'm well aware of what the term means.

I'm simply saying that, in a community dominated by authors that give their time and abilities for free to enhance the experience of the community of AddOn users (which is VAST with WoW), it's upsetting and a little sad to see authors of popular AddOns pulling, blocking, or ceasing development. It really puts a spotlight on the people that have forgotten what the WoW AddOn community is (or was...) all about and what made it so great.

spiel2001 · 03-29-09, 05:38 PM

As a matter of record... I'm going to stop posting in this and all other threads on the subject. There's really nothing left to be said that hasn't been said already. I've already made the commitment to continue developing nUI and have to move past the roadblock and get on to solutions.

I appreciate everyone's feedback to date and the support I've received... moral, immoral and otherwise ~smile~

Onwards and upwards... my best wishes to everyone going forward in the new day at hand.

Sythalin · 03-29-09, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by spiel2001

or even to just play.

No offense mate, since I like ya, but not wanting to play because of few new stipulations that reduce your income is just downright pathetic. It reads as if the person only cares about the income or was on the verge of quitting anyway (for whatever reason) and was only sticking around because of the income.

But glad to hear you're moving past it and continuing development. Better than some other author's reactions of "I'm taking my ball and going home!"

***Cairenn*** · 03-29-09, 07:07 PM

Chaos, any idea how often I don't want to play, because I'm just so tired of having to deal with stuff outside of the game but relating to it? I can definitely see why a number of authors (and others) aren't currently playing either, and I know from other avenues of discussion that spiel isn't alone in this.

Slakah · 03-29-09, 07:12 PM

I don't play :P, I have to steal people with accounts to test stuff.

***Cairenn*** · 03-30-09, 01:01 PM

The folks over at Zam interviewed a lawyer about the new policy Blizzard introduced on March 20th.

We recently reported that Blizzard Entertainment has formalized design and distribution guidelines for add-ons. There were a number of changes, including the fact that developers can no longer sell their add-ons. Since that time a great majority of the community have voiced their concerns with these new changes, so we decided to talk with a lawyer who's well-versed in such things. Connie Mableson represented MDY in the now famous Blizzard verse MDY case and she has some interesting theories about what Blizzard is intending to do now that third party addon authors cannot sell their creations. "Based on all the changes Blizzard is making, I believe the Blizzard business model is to "Monetize" UI Mods/add-ons by developing them in house and offering them for sale to players " said Connie. Unfortunately when we approached Blizzard about this theory, they had no comment.

Go here to check out the full interview.

Alien13c · 03-30-09, 01:20 PM

HIGHLY doubtful...

fuel -> fire