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09-11-09, 01:05 AM   #41
Landrell
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I can see the argument. I think the bottom line on it is that people who use those types of addons are probably using them for the wrong reason. Either they don't want a group of bads so they assume through the gear rating that they are a bad player and they get snuffed. The other case is that they use the addons as a way to get carried themselves through whatever raid/instance that they are trying to do. Or it could be the simple fact that those people are just terds and you don't need to be running with them.

I can see the logic and the fundamental purpose of using an addon like that, just it's being used by the wrong people for the wrong purpose that it's really intended for.

That's just my final 2 copper on the thing..
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09-11-09, 03:19 AM   #42
Dridzt
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Originally Posted by Landrell View Post
The other case is that they use the addons as a way to get carried themselves through whatever raid/instance that they are trying to do.
This!

The "other" case in my experience is the prevalent one not the fringe one.
(especially if we keep this in the context of small-group play ie 5mans/heroics)
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09-11-09, 03:57 AM   #43
Tristanian
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Originally Posted by Landrell View Post
I can see the logic and the fundamental purpose of using an addon like that, just it's being used by the wrong people for the wrong purpose that it's really intended for.
This has been my experience as well. Gear rating addons can be an invaluable tool to raid leaders, when it comes to optimizing their setup for a particular task or even individuals that are looking to squeeze the best out of their gear (and possibly spec as well). The sad and the bitter truth is, that more than 80% of the people using those addons (and I'm being generous here), has very little idea on how to play their own character (not to mention other classes), so they basically rely on those addons to either find people to carry them through content or simply make informed decisions for them. Both uses are really way outside the original purpose of said addons and it's kind of sad to see their authors getting bashed simply because they coded something they believed would benefit the community.
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09-11-09, 04:08 AM   #44
Republic
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Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
IAs to the reasons for not banding together to make a standard rating system...that's like asking why there are so many action-bar AddOns, or so many different buff AddOns.
No it isn't. Different people may like different colors, thus individual tastes drive need for "many" bar addons, etc. Stats are stats. Dodge is dodge. Parry is parry. An item providing me with 100 stamina should be seen the same across all methods of measurement. Opinion and personal tastes shouldn't enter into the evaluation that determines "gear score" as measured by these addons, sites, etc. That is, if any of them care about credibility.

Originally Posted by Torhal View Post
Different strokes for different folks. I didn't like the huge numbers I saw in other AddOns, or what I deemed arbitrary ratings. I don't care what your spec is, or if you're a Paladin who likes to heal in cloth. Judging should be up to the individual, not a number.
My friend, you've just defined your own brand of arbitrary ratings. You didn't like other numbers so you in essence made your own. How is yours not as arbitrary as anyone else's? I understand what you are saying about paladins healing in cloth, etc. But, you know what? That cloth should produce the same gear scores as if it was hanging on a priest. A robe is a robe. If it's a nice one, it should always be a nice one no matter who it's hanging on. There really shouldn't be any room for subjectivity in determining GEAR score. The issue of whether or not a paladin should be wearing it is open for perception and should be counted as something else, but not literal gear score. Gear is gear. If you look at item stats and values, you see Blizzard has already defined what comprises its gear score. A method of tabulating these scores across a player's full set of gear is all that's left to do. I simply don't believe it would be difficult for ONE STANDARD in doing so.

Here's a little scenario to indicate why I think subjectivity and lack of standardization sucks...

Raid Leader A begins putting together a trip into Ulduar. He calls out for dps in the unfortunate method people often use today, "LF1M DPS Ulduar, please be geared, know the fights, checking gear scores, yada yada yada."

Player B, who uses "Fred's Cool Gear Score mod" and a nice "Holy Axe of WalMart" responds to Raid Leader A. "melee dps here, ready for invite".

Player C, who uses "Barney's Cool Gear Score mod" and a nice "Holy Axe of Walmart" responds to Raid Leader A. "melee here, ready to go".

Raid Leader A asks each player for their gear score.

Player B, who uses Fred's mod (and Fred has man love for big axes), responds with "2500 gear score".

Player C, who uses Barney's mod (and Barney was traumatized in his youth by axes), responds with "2350 gear score".

Raid Leader A takes Player B on raid. Player C is left out.

Player C goes to the armory to look up Player B. Player C is very pissed off to see Player B has the same exact gear. Player C stops using Barney's mod because Barney is a biased idiot.

Player C becomes a defensive obnoxious elitist idiot when he sets up his own runs because of his experience with Barney's mod and Raid Leader A's rejection.

Do we understand now? Barney's mod was contributing to the OVERALL PROBLEM it was trying to fix. It isn't Barney's fault that Fred likes axes. If there was a standard measure in place, Player C wouldn't have become a jerk and player PREFERENCES in things like interface, ease of use, etc. would determine if Barney's mod was more popular than Fred's. You know, the way it should be. One system, many interfaces. Get my point?

Honestly, is there anyone out there that cannot see a need for ONE standard in determining gear scores? There really is no point in any of it until there is only one way to measure. Well, other than enabling more elitism. And well, I dont think that is anyone's intention. I know it isn't yours.

Stats are stats. Opinion is opinion. Gear score should only come from stats.
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09-11-09, 04:17 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tristanian View Post
This has been my experience as well. Gear rating addons can be an invaluable tool to raid leaders, when it comes to optimizing their setup for a particular task or even individuals that are looking to squeeze the best out of their gear (and possibly spec as well). The sad and the bitter truth is, that more than 80% of the people using those addons (and I'm being generous here), has very little idea on how to play their own character (not to mention other classes), so they basically rely on those addons to either find people to carry them through content or simply make informed decisions for them. Both uses are really way outside the original purpose of said addons and it's kind of sad to see their authors getting bashed simply because they coded something they believed would benefit the community.
Last I checked, this is 2009 and there aren't many raid guilds carrying large rosters anymore. The kids don't run 40 man content anymore, it's beneath them How hard is it really to keep up with 3 or 4 tanks a couple of healers, etc.? If people have trouble following that kind of thing, they don't know how to delegate. I was in a large guild once that class officers coordinated almost everything happening with their respective classes. The warrior CO set up runs to gear his warriors. The paladin CO knew who was holy, who was prot, and who needed what. When it came time to set up a large MC run, the raid leader would tell the officers how many guys they needed and the officers did the rest. It's amazing what happens when one guy isn't responsible for knowing the content of every last gem slot in the guild.

The problems here indicate a lack of competent leadership, not a need for these kinds of addons (although nice, fluffy, and convenient as they may be). And btw, no one is bashing authors here. I've said a few times I appreciate their work. The people being bashed here are the "nameless and faceless" idiots who abuse these tools made by these fine authors.
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09-11-09, 05:33 AM   #46
Tristanian
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Republic, I don't disagree with what you are saying, nor did I imply that said addons are useful or even desired by absolutely all the raiders (and not only). I can tell you for a fact that hardcore guilds that do indeed run 40-50 man rosters (for redundancy) will NOT require said addons, because for the most part they know the people they are raiding with.

I simply stated the obvious, that rating addons, do serve a purpose, if you use them as an indication (not proof) of quality, or to simply quickly discover some discrepancies in parts of gear that can be significant in certain situations.
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09-11-09, 06:06 AM   #47
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When one unattended child shoots another, do we blame the gun, the gun's manufacturer, the kids, or their parents? In some way, each of them plays a small part, but the manufacturer and the gun are the last things that should take the blame.

While my analogy isn't perfect, I think I've made the point.

These add-ons were intended to be a good useful tool, and they weren't intended to wreck the community. I suppose I inadvertently pointed a finger in the way I asked the question in my subject line. Torhal can't help that a bunch of bratty twelve year olds want to lean on his mod to do all the thinking for them, and he's not going to pull it off the 'market' and away from good raid and guild leaders just because of those twelve year olds. (At least, he shouldn't pull it down because of that.)

My biggest baffle was over how anyone assumed that a gear rating tool was a player rating tool, and we can't blame the tool maker for the end-user's folly.
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09-11-09, 06:26 AM   #48
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(first note, i have not read all of the posts so excuse me if i say something that has allready been said)

i think the best solution is to get a standard
every addon calculates the gear rating in theyr own way. if we can get a universaly accepted calculation, so that every addon returns the same value for 1 item.
Alot of problems will be solved then (nearly not all tho)

how anyone assumed that a gear rating tool was a player rating tool
i agree, the player still matters most
i had some discussions on how i could not solo rfc at a low level with the current gear i had, yet i still pulled it off witouth dying
so a players skill is still the most important, if you can't handle your char, then the best gear in the game won't help

i have a gear rating addon, but i use it for me personaly (or when someone asks wich of the 2 is better)
even then, i use it as a last resort if i cannot decide, then i look at the score i get from it and take that into decision
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09-11-09, 08:00 AM   #49
forty2j
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Originally Posted by Republic View Post
I understand what you are saying about paladins healing in cloth, etc. But, you know what? That cloth should produce the same gear scores as if it was hanging on a priest. A robe is a robe. If it's a nice one, it should always be a nice one no matter who it's hanging on. There really shouldn't be any room for subjectivity in determining GEAR score.

....

Stats are stats. Opinion is opinion. Gear score should only come from stats.
You're missing something: Class Mechanics are Class Mechanics. The Robe shouldn't count nearly as high for the Paladin as it does for the Priest, as all that Spirit is completely wasted. Your suggestion, in essence, that iLvl and rarity are all that matter.. but in that case, you can slop on your Arena Gear and "win" the rating.

Mods like this, if they are to have any true value in evaluating a player's potential, need to consider each stat's and talent's potential contribution given that class's mechanics. And if it can't do that, just listing all the gear and seeing that the Resto Shammy gemmed for Agility (to better dodge adds, lol) is all that's really needed. (And that's a much better Guild Leader tool than assigning an arbitrary number to each person based on the phase of the moon, the color of their hair, and whether welfare smiled on them recently.)
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09-11-09, 08:56 AM   #50
zero-kill
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I almost feel like writing a Fuzzycalc just to throw a wrench into the gears.
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09-11-09, 11:16 AM   #51
Republic
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Originally Posted by forty2j View Post
You're missing something: Class Mechanics are Class Mechanics. The Robe shouldn't count nearly as high for the Paladin as it does for the Priest, as all that Spirit is completely wasted. Your suggestion, in essence, that iLvl and rarity are all that matter.. but in that case, you can slop on your Arena Gear and "win" the rating.
I agree and you don't really see what I'm saying. Mods like this are NOT intended to evaluate a player (at least one author has confirmed so in this thread even), they are used to evaluate gear. Literally. Gear. Measuring whether the paladin benefits from gear is a completely different issue, or should be. That requires opinion and is even harder to define one standard. Line up 10 players, you will have 15 opinions. Gear ratings are literally about gear. Player ratings cannot be standardized. Game mechanics, if you really think they should be evaluated, should be done so by someone who knows what those game mechanics mean. We have the Armory for this type of "application" of gear scores. We don't need 53 different authors and their personal preferences dictating to Joe Raid Leader 53 different ratings of how a person uses his gear and thus, impacts his game mechanics. We can however have 53 different interfaces for ONE system and everything begins to make sense.

Without a standard, none of this has a point. There is no way in hell though that a raid leader takes a gear score and says to himself "okay, will this paladin's MP5 be enough for him to heal our run?". They instead look at the gear score itself without caring about the fact the player may use a different set of buffs to enhance his healing (for example) than other paladins. For further example, my own paladin tank NEVER has to drink and is always topped off with mana because of how I buff myself during runs. I have the choice of using different buffs to perhaps increase my damage, but I choose to keep myself in position to keep a run moving quickly as the kids lose patience and need their ritalin when someone is constantly drinking. My gear has very little to do with this fact. It's how I choose to play. If an identically-geared paladin used a different set of buffs, he might have to drink a lot more. Which paladin would you rather run with? One who has to drink all the time or one who can run heroics in less than 30 minutes? In this case, gear is equal but player ability may be seen differently. How or where is that captured? It's a case of player mechanics being different having nothing to do with gear. Obviously one would be preferred, but both look the same on paper.

I'm sorry but I just don't buy the fact that raid leaders actually "drill down" on gear scores to determine which player/class is optimizing his mechanics. That's almost funny to suggest. People are so not that bright. The kids see the GS number. Period. Many of them don't have a clue about other people's mechanics so they once again fall back on a simple GS number, which I've already shown has many, many problems.

Last edited by Republic : 09-11-09 at 11:26 AM.
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09-11-09, 12:01 PM   #52
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We use wow-heroes as a guide for gear score to see who has the gear for a raid. But it doesn't stop there. Each of us know how the players are working and in some cases we ignore the gear score because we know the player knows their class enough to throw out the extra dps/damage that belies the gear they have.

Also, everyone in the guild and the people that raid with us regularly knows we use the site, so they know what to check and when. That said, we do use the gear score to put a limit down. If wow-heroes says the guy should be doing heroics he doesn't come into ulduar with us. Now if it said he was almost ready for ulduar we would let him in to give him that chance to show us what he has.

Some of our guildies are using gearcheck addons but they generally use it to gauge how well people are gearing compared to others. Several times now he has asked me the question, 'Have you got all your gear on ? ' Then I realise I had switched specs for dailies and forgotten to switch back for the raid. That could have easily been a problem if I hadn't noticed it until the raid had started and I tried to put Earth Shield on the tank to have it fail.

So, as has been said, and I have iterated this several times to our raid leader , who thankfully relies on the other people in the guild to tell him who should raid with us rofl, that gear checking is just a guide as to whether someone should be in the raid and shouldn't be the reason we put people out, and the gear doesn't necessarily mean they are good but in fact that they can be good if they play their class well.
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09-11-09, 07:43 PM   #53
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Summary up to this point:

-Said addons originally designed in order to allow guilds and friends to help each other.
-Elitist Jerks (not the theorycrafters, but the actual jerks) misusing addons is bad.
-Something should be done, but no one really knows what.



I'm in agreement that it is too easy to obtain "epic" gear. Yet, the fact that someone does not have 'perplz' should not be a factor in judging how good they are with the class.

For high-end raids I can understand the need for prerequisites, but the subject seems to be heroics and beginning raids.

Everyone seems to have forgotten december 2008. When EVERYONE was running around in greens and blues; and how did we do? Everyone did perfectly fine.
The occasional death in HoL or UP was chalked up to not completely knowing the fights.

Over time as people began farming naxx, voa, os, and maly, the amount of epics in the game grew and grew. The relative cheapness of emblem gear didn't help. Epics no longer feel, well, 'epic'. People only see the color of the item name or item level and base judgements on that.

Case in point - Was working on my shaman alt one day when a well known jerk was looking for another DPS for H-HoL. At the time, I still needed something from there, so I responded.
Neeph has a good set of resto gear (being my main spec) and a set for enhancement made of mostly blues and a green or three.
My resto set was equipped while he did the gear check. I believe his words were, "This group might be ok. everyone's over 2k ilvl."

Only after Loken was dead and I did 2.2k dps overall (2.4k on bosses) did he notice I wasn't in all purples. After a bit of berating about 'deceit' and 'carrying me' did I point out that I beat his guildie in full naxx25 gear by 300 dps.

But that's just one of the countless stories out there.

When running pugs, I always stand up for the "under geared". Having taken a 2 year hiatus from WoW (from between AQ to BT) I can relate to people trying to do easy content and being judged. Anyone that uses an addon to "screen" people from anything but ToC 10/25 or Uld 25 is put on my Bad Players list.

All in all, that's about the only thing we can do in the short-term to stem the "X-box Live" feel (no offense meant to those decent people that also play on X-box)... not patronize them.

Last edited by Neef : 02-09-10 at 03:05 PM. Reason: Typos and forgot decimals.
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09-11-09, 11:14 PM   #54
Republic
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Originally Posted by Neef View Post
Summary up to this point:

-Said addons originally designed in order to allow guilds and friends to help each other.
-Elitist Jerks (not the theorycrafters, but the actual jerks) misusing addons is bad.
-Something should be done, but no one really knows what.



I'm in agreement that it is too easy to obtain "epic" gear. Yet, the fact that someone does not have 'perplz' should not be a factor in judging how good they are with the class.

For high-end raids I can understand the need for prerequisites, but the subject seems to be heroics and beginning raids.

Everyone seems to have forgotten december 2008. When EVERYONE was running around in greens and blues; and how did we do? Everyone did perfectly fine.
The occasional death in HoL or UP was chalked up to not completely knowing the fights.

Over time as people began farming naxx, voa, os, and maly, the amount of epics in the game grew and grew. The relative cheapness of emblem gear didn't help. Epics no longer feel, well, 'epic'. People only see the color of the item name or item level and base judgements on that.

Case in point - Was working on my shaman alt one day when a well known jerk was looking for another DPS for H-HoL. At the time, I still needed something from there, so I responded.
Neeph has a good set of resto gear (being my main spec) and a set for enhancement made of mostly blues and a green or three.
My resto set was equipped while he did the gear check. I believe his words were, "This group might be ok. everyone's over 2k ilvl."

Only after Loken was dead and I did 22k dps overall (24k on bosses) did he notice I wasn't in all purples. After a bit of berating about 'deceit' and 'carrying me' did I point out that I beat his guildie in full naxx25 gear by 300 dps.

But that's just one of the countless stories out there.

When running pugs, I always stand up for the "under geared". Having taken a 2 year hiatus from WoW (from between AQ to BT) I can relate to people trying to do easy content and being judged. Anyone that uses an addon to "screen" people from anything but ToC 10/25 or Uld 25 is put on my Bad Players list.

All in all, that's about the only thing we can do in the short-term to stem the "X-box Live" feel (no offense meant to those decent people that also play on X-box)... not patronize them.
I agree with your stance on things. The thing I don't get is why people all of a sudden require 2k dps for simple 5 man heroics. It simply isn't needed. I'm a good enough tank to work a little harder if need be so that "fresh 80's" can get some upgrades, etc. I can also say that 2k dps is not a standard by which other dps should be judged for 5 man heroics. I've had successful runs with everything from 800 dps dk's (yes, true story) to 4k dps mages. Obviously, more dps is better, but the game is sometimes about cooperation and helping others advance for themselves. I realize that's a rare opinion but that's the way I am and play.

Gear checking for heroics and even 10 man raids is a little ridiculous. I think most people know their own limitations and won't really try to tank Ulduar with quest reward greens. Well, most mature people won't and that's the only kind of player I'm interested in running with.

We can fix gear. We can't fix stupid.
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09-12-09, 07:04 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by zero-kill View Post
I almost feel like writing a Fuzzycalc just to throw a wrench into the gears.
Please, do it. Someone needs to do something, and as this is the only solution that has been thrown out, you need to make it happen. I want to see a gear addon that guages an item's value off of nothing other than its vendor price. If it doesn't have a vendor price, it should use a randomizer.

Wouldn't you love to see someone in full H Naxx 25 gear get sent home for being poorly geared by a bunch of morons?
Originally Posted by Republic View Post
We can fix gear. We can't fix stupid.
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09-12-09, 07:13 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Republic View Post
Gear checking for heroics and even 10 man raids is a little ridiculous.
(Aside)
I find it disappointing that so many players downgrade the 10 Man. I've been in two 10 Man Progression guilds and I will tell you without a doubt that those were the most fun guilds that I've been in to date. Synergy is and always will be my focus in the game and coming together as a 10 Man within a guild is great for general morale and for building your understanding of raid mechanics and teamwork. Take two of these teams and bring them together for 25 and kiss the nerdrage goodbye..

Since the patch made t8 more readily available, there pretty much is no excuse not to have it along with some 219. Recently I've met a few toons who did exactly this and never stepped foot into Naxx or Uld and pretty much were going straight for 25 Trials. On one hand I think this is bad, but on the other hand I can see the sense it makes for the new-to-WoW player (new content is always the most interesting and should be made reasonably available to the new customer).


Gearchecking
If you're in greens or blues, you really have no place in Uld or Trials. Heroics are where you should be for the moment to build your teamwork skills and learn your class and movement. Eventually you'll be in all epics but the gearcheck will now focus on your enchants and gems.

If you pug, expect to be gearchecked. It's the same as filling an app for an accomplished guild (might seem ridiculous to you, but try to see it from both sides.. the players you want to group with don't know anything about you aside from what a quick gearcheck addon can do, or looking up your achievements). The best advice I can offer is to just thank your group and whomever invited you, add them to your friends list and just get known. Connections are the best way to pug and overpower the gearcheck.
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09-12-09, 11:55 AM   #57
Psychophan7
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Originally Posted by Limb0 View Post
Gearchecking
If you're in greens or blues, you really have no place in Uld or Trials.
http://www.wow.com/2009/09/02/yogg-saron-in-blues/

Who needs purples?
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09-12-09, 04:27 PM   #58
forty2j
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Originally Posted by Republic View Post
I agree with your stance on things. The thing I don't get is why people all of a sudden require 2k dps for simple 5 man heroics. It simply isn't needed.
I wish there was a Neon sign on every instance portal with those words.

When my Ret Pally got her Bronze Drake from the Heroic CoS achievement, she put out ~1800 dps. And topped the chart. Good group coordination (despite it being a PuG), not RAWR power, won the day.. and we finished it with 5 min to spare.
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09-12-09, 09:17 PM   #59
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First off I would'nt even wanted to go with fools like that. If i know what I'm doing and my gear ain't perfect it should'nt matter.
Next time you see those fools just do a "%^&*" and walk on by..
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09-12-09, 09:26 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Psychophan7 View Post
There are definitely exceptional players all around, and this is a great example of what can be achieved with the right synergy (yay 10 Mans). It's kind of tongue in cheek to the discussion going on in this thread though, which addresses more of the hurdles that upcoming players are having with pugging.

-

Maybe the real question is, who needs 23 others?
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